BoxRec

prime for prime joe wins

liston may knock joe down once or twice early , but there is no way he can match joes pace after 8-9 rounds

liston either gets knocked out or quits in rounds 12-14

boxerbob wrote:prime for prime joe wins

liston may knock joe down once or twice early , but there is no way he can match joes pace after 8-9 rounds

liston either gets knocked out or quits in rounds 12-14

Not knocking your prediction, just asking --- do you think Foreman could have kept pace with Frazier through eight or nine rounds?

Archie Moore was interviewed by the Seattle Daily news in Feb.1968 and asked how he would rate the current contenders.
He said Joe Frazier was the best of the current crop,but not to over look Buster Mathis.
He also said Liston need a few more fight to redeem himself ,but since he was champion once he could be champion again, the
Liston that knocked out Patterson twice,He thought that Liston could defeat Frazier,because a fighter who comes to him, is a fighter that Liston liked best.
He also gave a good word about Boone Kirkman who he felt had potential and was the darkhorse among the contenders.
he is raw and crude put he can punch and take a punch.

It was said that Kirkman took the loss to Foreman really hard. Just didn't know what happened or what went wrong, apparently. Had a hard time accepting he was just whacked on outta there.

The gangsters that were around boxing and pulling the strings were not gentle negotiators. Sonny Liston was a hard, hard man and he was scared of those people who were very powerful. If Liston had not done as he was told he would've been killed; there is some speculation that he was killed after being used by the mob. That puts the 'Liston made choices' into perspective. The vast majority of us would listen very carefully if someone had a gun to our head.

simon fox wrote:The gangsters that were around boxing and pulling the strings were not gentle negotiators. Sonny Liston was a hard, hard man and he was scared of those people who were very powerful. If Liston had not done as he was told he would've been killed; there is some speculation that he was killed after being used by the mob. That puts the 'Liston made choices' into perspective. The vast majority of us would listen very carefully if someone had a gun to our head.

Chopping at the tree's head while ignoring the root, eh?

Liston made his bed. He had to lie in it.

boxerbob wrote:prime for prime joe wins

liston may knock joe down once or twice early , but there is no way he can match joes pace after 8-9 rounds

liston either gets knocked out or quits in rounds 12-14

About as I see it, except Sonny is out of there a round or two earlier.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

simon fox wrote:The gangsters that were around boxing and pulling the strings were not gentle negotiators. Sonny Liston was a hard, hard man and he was scared of those people who were very powerful. If Liston had not done as he was told he would've been killed; there is some speculation that he was killed after being used by the mob. That puts the 'Liston made choices' into perspective. The vast majority of us would listen very carefully if someone had a gun to our head.

Chopping at the tree's head while ignoring the root, eh?

Liston made his bed. He had to lie in it.

Goodnight Irene - you oughta be called Opposite Annie.

Liston didn't choose his bed and many of the top boxers of the time operated in a climate of fear. The heavyweight championship was a very lucrative position (but not always for the champion).

You seem to have little in the way of empathy. Would you have made different choices in Listons shoes?

Or would you have scraped by illiterate in a segregated state?

As a case study Liston is interesting. Yes he had choices, and I am a person who believes people should be held accountable. But life is huge and full of anomalies. If you want to make the case that Liston could put fear into people AND that he was a fearful man himself...that makes some sense to me.

I'm just not sure he was "bad to the bone". In fact it seems that later in life, once he was genuinely exposed to civility and some luxuries...(as being a champ will offer), he seemed to show he was just another working stiff.

He may be one of the most misunderstood and saddest stories in all of the dramas championship boxing has produced. His story is purely haunting. IMHO.

BoxBuzz wrote:As a case study Liston is interesting. Yes he had choices, and I am a person who believes people should be held accountable. But life is huge and full of anomalies. If you want to make the case that Liston could put fear into people AND that he was a fearful man himself...that makes some sense to me.

I'm just not sure he was "bad to the bone". In fact it seems that later in life, once he was genuinely exposed to civility and some luxuries...(as being a champ will offer), he seemed to show he was just another working stiff.

He may be one of the most misunderstood and saddest stories in all of the dramas championship boxing has produced. His story is purely haunting. IMHO.

Agreed.

A tragic figure.

I wish Sonny had been given more of a chance when he became champ.

Little things tell me about the possible true nature of people.

I was impressed with how Liston seemed to have empathy for Patterson in the ring in Chicago immediately after Floyd was counted out....instead of running about acting like a damned fool.

He did the same for others in other films of his fights I've seen.

I've never been to Las Vegas, but I plan to go by his grave there one day.

Sonny Liston. A man.

simon fox wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

simon fox wrote:The gangsters that were around boxing and pulling the strings were not gentle negotiators. Sonny Liston was a hard, hard man and he was scared of those people who were very powerful. If Liston had not done as he was told he would've been killed; there is some speculation that he was killed after being used by the mob. That puts the 'Liston made choices' into perspective. The vast majority of us would listen very carefully if someone had a gun to our head.

Chopping at the tree's head while ignoring the root, eh?

Liston made his bed. He had to lie in it.

Goodnight Irene - you oughta be called Opposite Annie.

Liston didn't choose his bed and many of the top boxers of the time operated in a climate of fear. The heavyweight championship was a very lucrative position (but not always for the champion).

You seem to have little in the way of empathy. Would you have made different choices in Listons shoes?

Or would you have scraped by illiterate in a segregated state?

We should have just granted him full amnesty from observing the law & everything wouldn't have turned out so tragic.

No one on this forum would have sympathy for a man identical to Liston, were he not a great Boxer. If anyone here picked up the paper & read someone had committed any of Liston's multiple crimes (including officer assault), they wouldn't bat an eyelid before turning the page.

You say I have no sympathy. I have plenty of sympathy...for Sonny's victims. The man was a dog to his core. If he was preyed upon by bigger dogs, that doesn't man him anything more likeable --- at least, not here.

In the early 1960s, Sonny returned to the Walls at the Missouri State Penitentary in Jefferson City, Missouri to give a boxing exhibition. Sonny was incarcerated there on a robbery conviction in the early 50s and learned to box there. One of my clients - a grandson of one of the guards - gave me a copy of this photo. As far as I know, its never been published in any format. It is also one of the few pictures anywhere in which Liston is actually grinning.

My client's grandfather stayed in contact with Sonny over the years until Sonny's death. My client told me that Sonny was one of the few inmates that his grandfather liked. His grandfather also believed that Sonny was murdered because, even at the Walls, Sonny was deathly afraid of needles.

Darling wrote:Sonny Liston. A man.

Could Darling be Updike channeled to our forum? From the great beyond?

allow me to channel granberry for a moment......notice the size of Sonny's hands? They look to be more the size of a foot! His hand appears to cover the guys entire shoulder.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Darling wrote:Sonny Liston. A man.

Could Darling be Updike channeled to our forum? From the great beyond?

You recognise that quote, Rob?

Great photo !!

Darling wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

Darling wrote:Sonny Liston. A man.

Could Darling be Updike channeled to our forum? From the great beyond?

You recognise that quote, Rob?

It is from Sonny's tombstone.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Darling wrote:Sonny Liston. A man.

Could Darling be Updike channeled to our forum? From the great beyond?

I think it is Collins' alias, actually.

Gran would have loved the legs too.

Ah, great days!

raylawpc wrote:

Darling wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

Could Darling be Updike channeled to our forum? From the great beyond?

You recognise that quote, Rob?

It is from Sonny's tombstone.

Good. At least there is one educated man amongst us.

Another one of Sonny.

Sonny and Richard Chamberlain