BoxRec

King Carlos wrote:Benitez was certainly better than the version of Barrera that Pacquiao ran through (or any other version for that matter). Benitez actually showed some of his best stuff at 154, in my opinion.

The KO of the underrated Hope was perhaps his finest moment.

Even so, I think Barrera was a ruly great fighter. Though he had seen better days when he lost to Pac.

I think Barrera was a great fighter as well. However, he wasn't as good as Duran or quite as good as Benitez. Duran was still only 30 when Benitez beat him, and it had only been about a year and a half since he had fought Leonard.
Benitez also beat Cervantes who was much better than Hope as well as Palomino.
When Hearns beat Duran, Duran was past his best but certainly was not shot. He fought for a long after that and nobody blew him out like Hearns did. That has to count for something.

If you look at all the major wins that Hearns and Pac had, you will see that they are quite comparable. Everyone seems to remember Hearns' losses but not Pac's. He got knocked out in 3 rounds by journeyman Rustic Terracampo, and also was knocked in 3 rounds by Medgoen Singsuat. Probably should not have got the draw against Marquez. Losing to Morales isn't embarrassing but it did happen.

Both Hearns and Pac both beat a several good fighters, and a few very/great fighters. They each had a couple of embarrassing losses.

It is very close.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:No offense, but your tone is completely one-sided here. It would be just as legitimate for me to go the opposite way & say Chavez was a good deal faded (ala Hatton), coming up a division, & how Nelson was past his best years & weightclass, etc, & you couldn't really deny me doing that. Give me Cotto over McGirt, & that's before we discuss how far Pacquiao travelled in weight to reach him/De La Hoya/Margarito/Hatton. It's huge when you compare what he did several divisions below against Barrera, Morales & Marquez.

Whitaker is the greater fighter, Pacquiao's had the more impressive career, IMO (close). I am certainly a much bigger fan of Whitaker than Pacquiao, as many here will attest.

Sorry GI, but Chavez was not as faded as Hatton was. Chavez was coming out of a total domination of everyone on his path. He was undefeated and nobody came close to beating him with the exception of Laporte. Hatton on the other hand was never as good as Chavez was to begin with, and was already stopped by Mayweather. Not to mention he should have had another loss on his resume vs Collazo. De La Hoya was completely washed-up and was a businessman, not a fighter, Margarito is not even worth discussing, and Hatton was not that good. He should get credit for dominating Barrera, but Morales defeated him clearly, and by the time the rematch was made Morales was done. Morales lost to Raheem clearly, and clearly had seen better days. Vs Marquez was very close and it is debatable as to who won the second fight. Even the first one Marquez dominated most of the fight and only the knockdowns save Pac.

I believe that Jones Jr. had a better career than Hearns and I would not rank him nowhere close to him. At least Jones won titles at heavyweight something that Hearns never did. Who had the better paper career should not matter. For me Hearns and Pernell will always be greater than Pac in any p4p ranking.

Id point out that you completely misconstrued what I was saying about Chavez. The rest of your post, being frank, is revisionist garbage (with a healthy dose of inaccuracies and absurdities). Heard it all before, am not interested.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Id point out that you completely misconstrued what I was saying about Chavez. The rest of your post, being frank, is revisionist garbage (with a healthy dose of inaccuracies and absurdities). Heard it all before, am not interested.

No more absurd than this

"I would place Pacquiao higher. He wouldn't be able to get Hearns at 147, but he was the better overall fighter IMO, & their career achievements aren't even debatable. Pacquiao gobbles him up there. Really, Pacquiao has at least a case for ranking above all of them, & I would personally put him over Hearns at a minimum, & possibly over all of Whitaker, Hagler & Leonard too."

What are the inaccuracies that you are talking about?

Idisagree wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:No offense, but your tone is completely one-sided here. It would be just as legitimate for me to go the opposite way & say Chavez was a good deal faded (ala Hatton), coming up a division, & how Nelson was past his best years & weightclass, etc, & you couldn't really deny me doing that. Give me Cotto over McGirt, & that's before we discuss how far Pacquiao travelled in weight to reach him/De La Hoya/Margarito/Hatton. It's huge when you compare what he did several divisions below against Barrera, Morales & Marquez.

Whitaker is the greater fighter, Pacquiao's had the more impressive career, IMO (close). I am certainly a much bigger fan of Whitaker than Pacquiao, as many here will attest.

I believe that Jones Jr. had a better career than Hearns and I would not rank him nowhere close to him. At least Jones won titles at heavyweight something that Hearns never did. Who had the better paper career should not matter. For me Hearns and Pernell will always be greater than Pac in any p4p ranking.

What in the world is this supposed to mean? Who had the better career doesn't matter in ranking fighters? Sorry, it matters more than who you think would win a fight. Hearns never won a title at Heavyweight? What Welterweights have?

Hopefully this portion of your post was some sort of joke. I agree that Hearns & Pea rate over Manny, but Pac is 31 years old so I can't say it will always be that way. If the two drama queens fought and Manny beat Floyd I'd probably have him in the Top 10 ahead of Hearns, Whitaker & Leonard.

Idisagree wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:No offense, but your tone is completely one-sided here. It would be just as legitimate for me to go the opposite way & say Chavez was a good deal faded (ala Hatton), coming up a division, & how Nelson was past his best years & weightclass, etc, & you couldn't really deny me doing that. Give me Cotto over McGirt, & that's before we discuss how far Pacquiao travelled in weight to reach him/De La Hoya/Margarito/Hatton. It's huge when you compare what he did several divisions below against Barrera, Morales & Marquez.

Whitaker is the greater fighter, Pacquiao's had the more impressive career, IMO (close). I am certainly a much bigger fan of Whitaker than Pacquiao, as many here will attest.

Sorry GI, but Chavez was not as faded as Hatton was. Chavez was coming out of a total domination of everyone on his path. He was undefeated and nobody came close to beating him with the exception of Laporte. Hatton on the other hand was never as good as Chavez was to begin with, and was already stopped by Mayweather. Not to mention he should have had another loss on his resume vs Collazo. De La Hoya was completely washed-up and was a businessman, not a fighter, Margarito is not even worth discussing, and Hatton was not that good. He should get credit for dominating Barrera, but Morales defeated him clearly, and by the time the rematch was made Morales was done. Morales lost to Raheem clearly, and clearly had seen better days. Vs Marquez was very close and it is debatable as to who won the second fight. Even the first one Marquez dominated most of the fight and only the knockdowns save Pac.

I believe that Jones Jr. had a better career than Hearns and I would not rank him nowhere close to him. At least Jones won titles at heavyweight something that Hearns never did. Who had the better paper career should not matter. For me Hearns and Pernell will always be greater than Pac in any p4p ranking.

Chavez started his career in a smaller weight class than Pea whereas Hatton a larger one than Pac. There's more to it than that but really...

Jones is nowhere near Hearns. Tommy was better at everything with the gloves on and his record should make Jones blush.

Bump

Duran Fan wrote:1. Greb (best resume ever)
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Pep
5. Benny Leonard
6. Charles
7. Langford
8. Duran
9. Walker
10. Tunney

i bet you are at least sixty years of age.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Reality is a clear Duran win, that's what happened in the ring. A draw would have been a joke.

signed.

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Harry Greb
4 Ezzard Charles
5 Sam Langford
6 Roberto Duran
7 Sugar Ray Leonard
8 Muhammad Ali
9 Pernell Whitaker
10 Roy Jones Jr

In light of recent events, I have changed my mind!

1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Willie Pep
5 Sam Langford
6 Harry Greb
7 Roberto Duran
8 Joe Louis
9 Benny Leonard
10 Muhammad Ali

My ranking now differs a little bit from 6 years ago:
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep
6. Harry Greb
7. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
8. Ezzard Charles
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Joe Louis

Syntax Error wrote:In light of recent events, I have changed my mind!

1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Willie Pep
5 Sam Langford
6 Harry Greb
7 Roberto Duran
8 Joe Louis
9 Benny Leonard
10 Muhammad Ali

No Corrie Sanders...

Jaywheel wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:In light of recent events, I have changed my mind!

1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Willie Pep
5 Sam Langford
6 Harry Greb
7 Roberto Duran
8 Joe Louis
9 Benny Leonard
10 Muhammad Ali

No Corrie Sanders...

I'm afraid not.

Corrie just misses out due to Muhammad Ali's exploits.

In fact, I'm going to redo my list to include Too Tall Jones & he will get pushed down even further I'm afraid.

1. Harry Greb
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Ezzard Charles
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Roberto Duran
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Joe Louis
9. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
10. Manny Pacquiao

Syntax Error wrote:In light of recent events, I have changed my mind!

1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Willie Pep
5 Sam Langford
6 Harry Greb
7 Roberto Duran
8 Joe Louis
9 Benny Leonard
10 Muhammad Ali

Ed "Too Tall" Jones has gotta be #2.

Syntax Error wrote:In light of recent events, I have changed my mind!

1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Willie Pep
5 Sam Langford
6 Harry Greb
7 Roberto Duran
8 Joe Louis
9 Benny Leonard
10 Muhammad Ali

WTF?!?!?!?!?

This list makes no sense!?!?!?!?!

Michael Jordan should be above Duran.

Of all boxers who are not active right now:

Sanchez
Tunney
Mayweather
Pep
Holmes
V Klitschko
Monzon
Duran
M. Spinks
Valero

Joshua will eclipse everyone at Heavyweight... Golovkin will eclipse everyone at Middleweight... And there are a few more active fighters who will do well

Kalan wrote:Of all boxers who are not active right now:

Sanchez
Tunney
Mayweather
Pep
Holmes
V Klitschko
Monzon
Duran
M. Spinks
Valero

Joshua will eclipse everyone at Heavyweight... Golovkin will eclipse everyone at Middleweight... And there are a few more active fighters who will do well

Golovkin still has a ways to go to eclipse the best all time Middleweights, but he's in the conversation now certainly.

I'm not sure how far Joshua will go ultimately, but I look forward to finding out. I think him becoming the best Heavyweight of all time though is extremely unlikely. Not because he's not talented, but because the history of the division is so rich with tremendous fighters. Some of whom haven't been equaled or bettered in near a century. Like Joe Louis for instance.

Having Valero on an All Time P4P list every time I think you say something that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard you manage to top yourself Kalan. Kudos. You're a good troll. I almost believed you were that stupid for a little while.

Valero isn't even a Top 100 All Time Lightweight.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:In light of recent events, I have changed my mind!

1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Willie Pep
5 Sam Langford
6 Harry Greb
7 Roberto Duran
8 Joe Louis
9 Benny Leonard
10 Muhammad Ali

WTF?!?!?!?!?

This list makes no sense!?!?!?!?!

Michael Jordan should be above Duran.

I'll sort it out.

Syntax Error wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:In light of recent events, I have changed my mind!

1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Willie Pep
5 Sam Langford
6 Harry Greb
7 Roberto Duran
8 Joe Louis
9 Benny Leonard
10 Muhammad Ali

WTF?!?!?!?!?

This list makes no sense!?!?!?!?!

Michael Jordan should be above Duran.

I'll sort it out.

Yes... and Leonard also took a nasty beating from Terry Norris and then quit Boxing for 6 years -- that's very factual too -- even though SRL did stage a comeback 6 years later... Leonard didn't do as well as George Foreman did in his comeback attempt... Thought I'd throw that in... There were a few fabulously ATG Middleweights at 160 when Leonard chose to drop back down to 154 to face Terry Norris... Ray was obviously avoiding Nunn, McCallum, and Jackson... for instance, Jackson smoked Norris something fierce with a 1-punch KO icing... Ray was hoping Norris retained some of that chin vulnerability -- but no luck.

Hey let me ask you something Kalan if Evander Holyfield made a comeback in a few months, and got beaten by Bryant Jennings. Would that make Jennings a better All Time Heavyweight than Evander in your mind or would you believe that Evander was old and past his best? Because the fact that fighters primes don't last forever seems to be something you can't grasp.

gilgamesh wrote:

Kalan wrote:Of all boxers who are not active right now:

Sanchez
Tunney
Mayweather
Pep
Holmes
V Klitschko
Monzon
Duran
M. Spinks
Valero

Joshua will eclipse everyone at Heavyweight... Golovkin will eclipse everyone at Middleweight... And there are a few more active fighters who will do well

Golovkin still has a ways to go to eclipse the best all time Middleweights, but he's in the conversation now certainly.

I'm not sure how far Joshua will go ultimately, but I look forward to finding out. I think him becoming the best Heavyweight of all time though is extremely unlikely. Not because he's not talented, but because the history of the division is so rich with tremendous fighters. Some of whom haven't been equaled or bettered in near a century. Like Joe Louis for instance.

Having Valero on an All Time P4P list every time I think you say something that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard you manage to top yourself Kalan. Kudos. You're a good troll. I almost believed you were that stupid for a little while.

Valero isn't even a Top 100 All Time Lightweight.

You're pretty damned stupid Gilgamesh.. Much dumber than I ever believed possible.. You picked Austin Trout to beat Jermall Charlo and then you said the fight was a draw on your scorecard to try to mitigate your stupid pick.. What a brain dead individual you are... Edwin Valero is a 2-Division World Champion, and has as many successful World Title Defenses as Sugar Ray Robinson ever had. He's never lost or tied a fight and showed great boxing technique and punching power. But to you he's not a Top-100 Lightweight according to you ... obviously many lightweights who nobody ever heard of have to be on your lightweight list well ahead of Valero.