YOUR score for the Ali-Norton fights.

[The Great John L]

The third was a close, competitive fight that I thought Norton won, bit it's hardly in the robbery category. I did just take the opportunity to rewatch the 15th round, and I can easily see how some thought Ali won this round. While Norton probably landed the harder shots, he didn't land very many and did very little besides lamely follow Ali around the ring for most of the 3 minutes. Ali clearly controlled the round with his movement and did land quite a few jabs, although only a few really landed with much effect. Actually, it wasn't much of a round, and is probably a good microcosm for for many of the rounds in their 2nd and 3rd fights. I thought Norton won the first fight by a pretty wide margin.

[gregor]

....If we agree that Norton (even if narrowly) won this fight, the next matters to address would be:

1. How did these judges and referees come up with their scores?

2. How did the 9 person celebrity panel conclude it was a draw?

3. How did Joe Frazier score it one round in favor of Norton?

Judges and referees often come with the worst scores (examples: Holyfield-Lewis, Valuev-Holyfield, and so on), so I wouldn't bother about it too much. Celebritites did a little better job, but as they were not professionals they could be influenced by Ali just throwing punches, without noticing that not much of that landed clearly (if at all). Something like ODH-Whitaker where judges didn't bother to notice Sweet Pea avoiding whole combos of Oscar.

And Joe Frazier still gave it to Norton - so I really see no contradiction between "narrow win" for Norton and "scoring one round in favour of Norton". Remember that also Ali (who was anything but humble at this time) gave it to Norton.

[The Great John L]

And Joe Frazier still gave it to Norton - so I really see no contradiction between "narrow win" for Norton and "scoring one round in favour of Norton". Remember that also Ali (who was anything but humble at this time) gave it to Norton.

I don't remember that. When did he say that?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I have not scored that fight, but I think while close Ali did get the win.
Atleast that was the impression I had after watching that one.

No robbery, but Ernie got it on my card. Ali had the innate ability to make up 3 or 4 rounds in the 15th. While that is somewhat tongue in cheek, following him through the years you distinctly got that feeling.

[The Great John L]

No robbery, but Ernie got it on my card. Ali had the innate ability to make up 3 or 4 rounds in the 15th. While that is somewhat tongue in cheek, following him through the years you distinctly got that feeling.

I think the Shavers fight was another one that could have gone either way. Unfortunately, Earnie wasn't quite as aggressive as usual or he might have been able to stop Ali. OTOH he also could have run out of gas being more aggressive and gotten stopped himself.

[hhaehre]

No robbery, but Ernie got it on my card. Ali had the innate ability to make up 3 or 4 rounds in the 15th. While that is somewhat tongue in cheek, following him through the years you distinctly got that feeling.

I think the Shavers fight was another one that could have gone either way. Unfortunately, Earnie wasn't quite as aggressive as usual or he might have been able to stop Ali. OTOH he also could have run out of gas being more aggressive and gotten stopped himself.

I scored the Shavers fight for Ali. Shavers was clearly winning when he stayed active but he could not knock Ali out and (for good reason) did not trust himself to keep a good pace throughout. In the end I thought Ali stole enough rounds, when Shavers was pacing himself, to win the fight. Ali was running on fumes at this point.

[dempseyfire]

I had Ali beating Shavers in a close fight. Earnie was so worried about gassing out that he gave too many of the early and middle rounds away. Lyle was another big puncher Ali faced who post-Foreman was so spooked about Ali wearing him out via the rope a dope and thus didn't fight his usual, aggressive fight.

[The Great John L]

I had Ali beating Shavers in a close fight. Earnie was so worried about gassing out that he gave too many of the early and middle rounds away. Lyle was another big puncher Ali faced who post-Foreman was so spooked about Ali wearing him out via the rope a dope and thus didn't fight his usual, aggressive fight.

You're right, but Lyle still had a pretty comfortable lead on the cards when he was "stopped".

Very few people seem to think that Shavers could have stopped the seemingly indestructible Ali, and that may be true. But if Earnie would have jumped on Ali one of those times when Ali was clearly rocked, it doesn't seem like a stretch that he might have been able to at least drop Ali. Earnie punched a fair sight harder than your average HW contender.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If the right hand in the second had landed earlier in the round, it could have been interesting. He was in a real bad way there, but Ali's recuperative powers were amazing. A minute was more than enough.

[The Great John L]

If the right hand in the second had landed earlier in the round, it could have been interesting. He was in a real bad way there, but Ali's recuperative powers were amazing. A minute was more than enough.

I haven't watched that fight in a long time, but I recall there were several times where Ali was rocked and Shavers didn't press his advantage. But as I said it's been a long time so maybe it would look different now, although Shavers did clock him a few times in that fight.

And yes Ali's recuperative powers were amazing, as were Holmes. Of course recovering from a solid shot is easier when you make your living as a boxer, since your body almost instinctively stars moving. Thats opposed to guys like Norton and Frazier, whose natural styles were to move forward. Once they was hurt badly, it was very difficult to avoid the followup.

[GranberryReturns]

I am glad posters like saad, irene, and dempseyfire are coming around to my point of view and seeing Ali for the charlatan, mountebank, and popinjay that he was.

One day even a simple soul like boxbuzz will see the light.

[Goodnight, Irene]

....If we agree that Norton (even if narrowly) won this fight, the next matters to address would be:

1. How did these judges and referees come up with their scores?

2. How did the 9 person celebrity panel conclude it was a draw?

3. How did Joe Frazier score it one round in favor of Norton?


I know some will think that folks were paid (granberry & co)

Some may think it was about sentiment...(let's give one to the ol' legend)

Some may feel it was a matter of subjective scoring (rather than objective, but strictly ruling out sentiment).

Are there any other possible explanations? Does the sentiment one have legs? Were we "in love" with this guy as a society? So that people from all walks of life looked at this and had an "emperor's new clothes" mentality about it?

Are there any credible boxing experts that believe Ali won to this day?


Was Harlold Lederman one of the judges? Can someon interview him on this?

I think it's an interesting topic at this point.

This is just like that time you tried to sell me the idea Ali would have been stopped if you reversed his position with Lyle, under the notion that a referee would have been super-inclined, "to save Ali from further punishment." How can you honestly sit there & posit it as some grand mystery as to how celebrities & Boxing officials, "could have Ali in front?" It's pathetic, Buzz, & I say the following with total sincerity --- you are better than such facetious, rookie thinking, & you are certainly well-informed enough to understand what was going on in those days, in regards to Ali's popularity. I presume you are foregoing that deliberately.

Puh-lease.

[Goodnight, Irene]

GI

I know what you are saying. As you know I am a Holmes fan, I can admit
he lost a couple of fights in his career, why can't the Ali fans do the same ? :)

Because we are talking about a level of infatuation so extreme, so inter-woven into the fabric of their love for the sport, that dedicated fans of other fighters (like you with Holmes) could not possibly understand how desperately important it is to re-write history.

Maybe some of Tyson's more rabid fans could relate, but that's about it.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I am glad posters like saad, irene, and dempseyfire are coming around to my point of view and seeing Ali for the charlatan, mountebank, and popinjay that he was.

One day even a simple soul like boxbuzz will see the light.

No one is, "coming around" to your point of view. Firstly, you are not an interesting or amusing take on the G-Man. If you tried parodying him, instead of straight parroting, it might get interesting, but you appear to lack such comedic nuance. Secondly, do me a favour --- don't associate your act with me, even if you do agree. It doesn't help a point we may both be trying to get across.

[Goodnight, Irene]

And Joe Frazier still gave it to Norton - so I really see no contradiction between "narrow win" for Norton and "scoring one round in favour of Norton". Remember that also Ali (who was anything but humble at this time) gave it to Norton.

I don't remember that. When did he say that?

Ali is spoken to immediately after the bout by a reporter. Ali is sitting, & it looks like a conference table setting, but it's difficult to be sure, because the close-up is on Ali, who is slightly-bruised. The reporter says he doesn't look happy, "look more like someone who lost more than someone who won," (para-phrased).

"Yeah, I lost," replies Ali.

[Robinson]

GI

Thats after the 3rd?

I do not have any post fight interview for that one i do not think :(

[Goodnight, Irene]

GI

Thats after the 3rd?

I do not have any post fight interview for that one i do not think :(

Yes. The footage I saw doesn't look post-fight (immediate). It looks like a conference, but undertaken very shortly after the bout. Ali is still bruised & the reporter mentions the word, "tonight," in reference to the bout.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If the right hand in the second had landed earlier in the round, it could have been interesting. He was in a real bad way there, but Ali's recuperative powers were amazing. A minute was more than enough.

I haven't watched that fight in a long time, but I recall there were several times where Ali was rocked and Shavers didn't press his advantage. But as I said it's been a long time so maybe it would look different now, although Shavers did clock him a few times in that fight.

And yes Ali's recuperative powers were amazing, as were Holmes. Of course recovering from a solid shot is easier when you make your living as a boxer, since your body almost instinctively stars moving. Thats opposed to guys like Norton and Frazier, whose natural styles were to move forward. Once they was hurt badly, it was very difficult to avoid the followup.

The right hand at the end of the second round may have been the hardest punch I've seen anyone take without going down. I haven't watched it in a while myself, but I vividly remember that one.

[GranberryReturns]

I am glad posters like saad, irene, and dempseyfire are coming around to my point of view and seeing Ali for the charlatan, mountebank, and popinjay that he was.

One day even a simple soul like boxbuzz will see the light.

No one is, "coming around" to your point of view. Firstly, you are not an interesting or amusing take on the G-Man. If you tried parodying him, instead of straight parroting, it might get interesting, but you appear to lack such comedic nuance. Secondly, do me a favour --- don't associate your act with me, even if you do agree. It doesn't help a point we may both be trying to get across.

Muhammad Ali had the skill of a prestidigitator when it came to mesmerizing the judges and a gullible populace. I applaud posters like you, saad, and dempseyfire for seeing through his carefully cheoreographed charade.

One day Buzz will see the truth just as Socrate's subjects in The Allegory Of The Cave.

[The Great John L]

Ali is spoken to immediately after the bout by a reporter. Ali is sitting, & it looks like a conference table setting, but it's difficult to be sure, because the close-up is on Ali, who is slightly-bruised. The reporter says he doesn't look happy, "look more like someone who lost more than someone who won," (para-phrased).

"Yeah, I lost," replies Ali.

Even para-phrasing, you either have an ironclad memory or you've recently seen this. Do you have a clip of this, because as I said I don't remember him saying that.

[The Great John L]

No one is, "coming around" to your point of view. Firstly, you are not an interesting or amusing take on the G-Man. If you tried parodying him, instead of straight parroting, it might get interesting, but you appear to lack such comedic nuance. Secondly, do me a favour --- don't associate your act with me, even if you do agree. It doesn't help a point we may both be trying to get across.

It's always better to not feed the troll.

[BoxBuzz]

....If we agree that Norton (even if narrowly) won this fight, the next matters to address would be:

1. How did these judges and referees come up with their scores?

2. How did the 9 person celebrity panel conclude it was a draw?

3. How did Joe Frazier score it one round in favor of Norton?


I know some will think that folks were paid (granberry & co)

Some may think it was about sentiment...(let's give one to the ol' legend)

Some may feel it was a matter of subjective scoring (rather than objective, but strictly ruling out sentiment).

Are there any other possible explanations? Does the sentiment one have legs? Were we "in love" with this guy as a society? So that people from all walks of life looked at this and had an "emperor's new clothes" mentality about it?

Are there any credible boxing experts that believe Ali won to this day?


Was Harlold Lederman one of the judges? Can someon interview him on this?

I think it's an interesting topic at this point.

This is just like that time you tried to sell me the idea Ali would have been stopped if you reversed his position with Lyle, under the notion that a referee would have been super-inclined, "to save Ali from further punishment." How can you honestly sit there & posit it as some grand mystery as to how celebrities & Boxing officials, "could have Ali in front?" It's pathetic, Buzz, & I say the following with total sincerity --- you are better than such facetious, rookie thinking, & you are certainly well-informed enough to understand what was going on in those days, in regards to Ali's popularity. I presume you are foregoing that deliberately.

Puh-lease.

Hey you're a good kid, seriously but this statement of yours proves you are guilty of ignorance.

1. You ignored that these are questions not statements
2. You ignored that I included "what was going on in those days in regards to Ali's popularity".


Stop being ignorant, or I will assume you are being truculent.


Also: . If your not buying that a ref might NOT save Ali from a beating, but WOULD save him by giving home a false decision, one might consider this stand as "inconsistent" and/or perhaps lacking in good faith. Or (perish the thought) ever so slightly self serving in a way that might insinuate bias.


With full respect and consideration in your regard as a fine and prolific contributor, Based on this oozing sore of logic, I'm given pause to question your serious resolve as an arbiter of pure and unadulterated neutral judgment.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Those were not questions you were posing. You know it. I know it.

You are the absolute king of double-talk on here.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ali is spoken to immediately after the bout by a reporter. Ali is sitting, & it looks like a conference table setting, but it's difficult to be sure, because the close-up is on Ali, who is slightly-bruised. The reporter says he doesn't look happy, "look more like someone who lost more than someone who won," (para-phrased).

"Yeah, I lost," replies Ali.

Even para-phrasing, you either have an ironclad memory or you've recently seen this. Do you have a clip of this, because as I said I don't remember him saying that.

It was about a year or so I saw it. I'm racking my mind trying to remember the name of the DVD. It was a generic Ali doco --- unfortunately, we know there are boatloads of these floating about. I did a quick YouTube search about two weeks ago looking for this & came up empty, but now I think I'll dig a little deeper. It has to be out there. I just need to recall the damn doco name.

[BoxBuzz]

Those were not questions you were posing. You know it. I know it.

You are the absolute king of double-talk on here.

And you, the King of insight, positive assumption, and keen observation. As always I will remain receptive and welcoming to your ever evolving literary works of fiction and fantasy.