BoxRec

Controversial wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Punching power being the last thing to go is an old wives tale. More often than not it is derived from speed, which is one of the first things to suffer from aging.

Joe Louis being a prime example. Near the end of his career he started to go the distance or stop fighters late, a sign that his speed and combination punching wasn't what it used to be.

Even Foreman to a certain degree lost his punch. Five of his last six fights went 12 rounds, the other one went 10 rounds.

In Foreman's case, though, that was at an unusually late age.

Foreman's problem is that a lot of the guys he fought late on, did not stand in front of him obligingly. Morrison for example, ran the entire fight.

There's a quote from Foreman with regards to the mandated Shultz rematch that he refused, along the lines of find me someone that doesn't move so much.

Then there's this quote from him:

Foreman: "Bob, I cant chase these guys anymore"
Arum: "George, I cant put it in the contracts that they cant run"

Schulz didn't run, he blasted George in the mouth all night. Morrison was a track meet for sure.

Schultz didn't stand in front of him, he may not have run but he certainly showed more movement than the cans he'd been feasting on. It's been years since I saw the fight though.

Anyone remember Alex Stewart turning Foreman's head into an overipe pumpkin?

Axel moved side to side while he pounded George's grill. Funny you mention Stewart, he fought about the same way Alex did. He just didn't get floored early. I think a lot of people mix up the Schulz & Morrison fights as one.

Michael Moorer at light heavyweight was an absolute monster.

He didn't really carry his power up to heavyweight though.

He never really fought anyone at 175, he had a hell of a time with Leslie Stewart. When he first moved to Heavyweight he was destroying guys, once Atlas screamed him into a shell he went downhill from there.

The Alex Stewart fight is an unappreciated brawl and everybody knows about the Cooper war.

Syntax Error wrote:Michael Moorer at light heavyweight was an absolute monster.

He didn't really carry his power up to heavyweight though.

To an extent, that's not true. Moorer had a pretty good, punishing punch at Heavy --- & his competition was a good deal better than at Light-Heavy, too. Still, it's true once he stopped draining, unsurprisingly, those shots lost some snap.

He was damn near killing folkes at 175.

Herol Graham could punch much, much harder than people remember. Many think he was a runner and a messer but he was pinpoint and his punching technique was all from the legs. He could really whack.

not a bad shout that, simon. i watched the Rod Douglas fight as a kid and couldn't quite see how Graham had done enough damage to stop him.

rewatching it from a mature perspective, I could.

Graham had the priceless advantage for any boxer in terms of the impact of his blows- his opponents were almost always either walking onto the shots, taking them 'blind' and unawares, or both of the above.

Cheers Counter Puncher; he is really overlooked and when he was in the mood he could be very aggressive.

dempseyfire wrote:Now to the topic of under-rated hitters, I'd add Dick Tiger, Jerry Quarry, Jack Sharkey, and Lloyd Marshall.

Good call on Quarry, he doesn't get enough credit for his punching.

I am going to add two names which I am surprised haven't been mentioned:

For Heavyweight: Rex Layne
I have seen ALL-TIME heavy hitters list and Layne has been included in some top 10s.

Layne had an impressive knockout ratio throughout his career, well up until 1954 when his career tailed off and went downhill.

Many, many people forget about Layne when talking about heavy hitters, it was his power that pulled him through against Ezzard Charles.

At Middleweight: Rubin Carter
Carter didn't have a great knockout ratio... But the boxers he fought said that he hit hard!

And, a fact that many people overlook is that Carter (an MW) floored the future Heavyweight World Champion, Jimmy Ellis when they fought.
A Middleweight overpowering a Heavyweight? There's not many time syou hear about something like that.

The former Uruguayan and South American Light Heavyweight Champion Angel Rodriguez, in all his professional career (1912-1927), fought 50 bouts, winning 49 (44 by k.o.) and lossing 1... On January !2, 1918, in Montevideo, Uruguay, knocked out the Argentinian giant Luis Firpo in the first round... Between 1914-1918, he scored 19 consecutive K.O. ...

In all the world, the most known Argentinian Middleweights are Carlos Monzon and Hugo Corro, both undisputed World Champions, but here, not all are sure that Monzon was the best of all the Middles: there were other three great fighters in that weight who could be equal or better than Monzon, and they are:

Raul Rodriguez, (all pro career 1939-1949) 73-7-2-1 NC WKO 33, Argentinian and South American Champion, a greatest stylist, better boxer than Monzon... Between 1940-1947, was 54 fights unbeaten... He beat Tigre Martinez de Alfara, European Champion, when had only four bouts, win, too, over Jacinto Invierno, Raul Landini, Ignacio Ara, Sonny Jones, Mario Piceda, Eddie Peirce, Amado Azar, Kid Azteca, Antonio Fernandez (Fernandito), Atilio Caraune and other important rivals...

Rafael Merentino, (1948-1955) 51-5-4 WKO 47 (78.33%!!!), who was forced to retirement due vision troubles at only 25 years old... He had twice groggy Kid Gavilan in 1952; win over Angel Cassano, Manuel Fernandez, Ricardo Calicchio, Kid Cachetada, Mario Diaz, Aldo Minelli, Miguel Rodriguez, Antonio Cuevas, Rinzi Nocero, Hardy Smallwood, Andres Selpa and other very high fighters... He had more punch than Monzon... Win their last five bouts by K.O....

Eduardo Lausse, (1947-1960) 75-10-2 WKO 62 (71,26%, 17 in the first round), Argentinian and South American Champion... He scored triumphs over Kid Cachetada, Aldo Minelli, Ubaldo Pereyra, Tommy Smith, Antonio Frontado, Antonio Cuevas, Mario Diaz, Jimmy Beau, Humberto Loayza, Jess Turner, Chico Varona, Ralph Tiger Jones, Kid Gavilan, Gene Fullmer, Johnny Sullivan, Andres Selpa, Victor Zalazar and others well known...He too had more potency than Monzon...

Merentino and Lausse never fought between them because they were managed by the same, the Porzio brothers (Alfredo and Tino) who don't like a bout between them...

Crease wrote:I am going to add two names which I am surprised haven't been mentioned:

For Heavyweight: Rex Layne
I have seen ALL-TIME heavy hitters list and Layne has been included in some top 10s.

Layne had an impressive knockout ratio throughout his career, well up until 1954 when his career tailed off and went downhill.

Many, many people forget about Layne when talking about heavy hitters, it was his power that pulled him through against Ezzard Charles.

Here is some rare footage of Rex Layne winning the National AAU Hwt Championship in Boston MA April 1949.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=51398

raylawpc wrote:

King Carlos wrote:

raylawpc wrote: Which ring historians have lauded Herrera as the hardest pound for pound puncher of all time?

Guys like Douglas Cavanaugh, Biddy Bishop, Tad Dorgan, Russ Newland, etc. have all rated him exceedingly highly, at or among the very top among Featherweights/Lightweights and in a pound for pound sense. Russ Newland wrote an article from first hand accounts of the old-timers around during Herrera's day.

It's all second hand info from my end, though. I chat with Cavanaugh every so often online. He has an upcoming article on Herrera due out shortly. If his previous articles are any indication, it should be a doozy. Quite the researcher is Cavanaugh.

Thanks. But saying some historians have "rated [Herrera] exceedingly highly, at or among the very top among Featherweights/Lightweights and in a pound for pound sense," is not the same as saying he is "still being lauded as the hardest pound for pound puncher of all time by many ring historians even after the careers of such men as Jimmy Wilde, Barbados Joe Walcott, Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, etc.," as you stated earlier. I am not aware that any ring historian has rated Herrera as the greatest puncher of all-time pound-for-pound. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

This should clear it up ;;-) http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=5112

Not an outright massive puncher, but power is rarely on the discussion front when Kenny Norton's name comes up. He could crack some, though. Definitely.

This one might sound a little odd, but could Maxxy Baer be added? Hear me out...if you bring up his name, people usually acknowledge yes, he was a great hitter. However, if you ask them to list the best HW hitters, they pretty much always rattle off a top-5 or so without any sight of the man. My suspicion is because he wasn't a true great, like Dempsey, Foreman, Liston etc, he gets downgraded --- if only subconsciously --- quite a bit. Shavers would seem to superficially shoot this supposition down, but Shavers has the benefit of getting dragged up into the limelight because he fought during the division's golden age.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Not an outright massive puncher, but power is rarely on the discussion front when Kenny Norton's name comes up. He could crack some, though. Definitely.

This one might sound a little odd, but could Maxxy Baer be added? Hear me out...if you bring up his name, people usually acknowledge yes, he was a great hitter. However, if you ask them to list the best HW hitters, they pretty much always rattle off a top-5 or so without any sight of the man. My suspicion is because he wasn't a true great, like Dempsey, Foreman, Liston etc, he gets downgraded --- if only subconsciously --- quite a bit. Shavers would seem to superficially shoot this supposition down, but Shavers has the benefit of getting dragged up into the limelight because he fought during the division's golden age.

Great observation

Rodrigo Valdez was a tremendous puncher at middleweight, only man to stop Bennie Briscoe

...ezzard charles at light heavy...

Nero3000 wrote:http://www.ibroresearch.com/?p=5112

That is quite an interesting read. Thanks.

Ezzard wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Not an outright massive puncher, but power is rarely on the discussion front when Kenny Norton's name comes up. He could crack some, though. Definitely.

This one might sound a little odd, but could Maxxy Baer be added? Hear me out...if you bring up his name, people usually acknowledge yes, he was a great hitter. However, if you ask them to list the best HW hitters, they pretty much always rattle off a top-5 or so without any sight of the man. My suspicion is because he wasn't a true great, like Dempsey, Foreman, Liston etc, he gets downgraded --- if only subconsciously --- quite a bit. Shavers would seem to superficially shoot this supposition down, but Shavers has the benefit of getting dragged up into the limelight because he fought during the division's golden age.

Great observation

Thankyou.

However, I just read the first page, & it appears I beat myself to my own point, just forgot I ever posted it

Goodnight, Irene wrote:In speaking of the Heavyweights, people only want to mention the all-time greats when discussing punching power.

Brutally under-rated as a result of this is Maxxy Baer.

People who UNDER rate Baer as a puncher? Cmon that list can't be very long. I hope 2011 has brought you greater awareness. Of course this statement was made when you were still cutting your teeth in boxing knowledge. By now I'm sure you're getting your first set of molars.

Another good puncher who hasn't been mentioned yet (I think): Marco Antonio Barrera.