Joe Calzaghe- All time great?

[King Carlos]

Am I the only one that thought Hopkins beat him rather handily?

[boxerbob]

calzaghe in the same level as

duran
leonard
hearns
hagler
ali
louis
robinson
etc etc etc

all time great???? , you are in the wrong sport son , best british boxer???? you have to fight dangerous men in their prime to do this

he isnt ever the best ever super middle in the country

benn beat mcclelland and mcclelland easily beats anything calzaghe faced

eubank beat benn , watson and rochigianni in germany again better to what joe who cant fly unless its against a 40 year old +

calzaghes best win is against kessler - enough said , hopkins beat him but got robbed

[Goodnight, Irene]

calzaghe in the same level as

duran
leonard
hearns
hagler
ali
louis
robinson
etc etc etc

all time great???? , you are in the wrong sport son , best british boxer???? you have to fight dangerous men in their prime to do this

he isnt ever the best ever super middle in the country

benn beat mcclelland and mcclelland easily beats anything calzaghe faced

eubank beat benn , watson and rochigianni in germany again better to what joe who cant fly unless its against a 40 year old +

calzaghes best win is against kessler - enough said , hopkins beat him but got robbed

A pretty sound challenge, but I take exception to you citing Leonard (either one), Louis, Robinson, Duran etc. as all-time greats. Are these guys the bare minimum for what constitues, "All-timer" in our sport? Certainly not --- you can be an all-time great (which I don't feel Calzaghe is) & still be unworthy of mentioning among those names.

Agree with your takes on the other exemplary Super-Middles from the UK, though I cannot see how you could give eight definitive rounds to Hopkins (the minimum to constitute a, "robbery" in my book) in his fight with Calzaghe.

[Counter-puncher]

I like to see joe being mentioned in the same breath as Lopez

i'll say a few things for him. forgetting his record for a moment, he had several attributes that were at least as good as anyone's I have seen, to wit:

Stamina. I reckon he's up there with anyone at all for maintaining a high workrate over 12.

Recovery ability, as Oliver implied a while back, he recovered from any heavy shots he took very well indeed.

Adaptability and versatility excellent, ring generalship good, decent reflexes.

add those to decent footwork and excellent handspeed, you have a very good package.

shame it wasn't tested more.

[Crease]

It'll be a cold day in Hell before I recognise the WBO as major.

That is your preference.

But it is accepted by practically everybody that the WBO is one of the four Major World Titles.

[Crease]

one of the relatively few things I don't like about Calzaghe was his insulation, sitting on that belt all that time.

You can't fault a World Champion for choosing to defend his title consistently...

As a matter of fact some people would say that the contrary is a problem, boxers winning world titles and dropping them is an all too regular habit.

It makes it difficult to consistently rank fighters then if the world champions change every few months.

[Crease]

What fights were there though?

In my opinion:

Ottke - a fight that maybe should have happened... I reckon Calzaghe would have outpointed Sven.

Beyer - my personal favourite fight. Cal wins on points.

Woods - Cal wins again maybe by late stoppage.

Johnsoon - an entertaining fight, but Joe's endurance keeps him punching.

maybe Collins? - Collins stood a decent chance at beating Joe, but we never know.

[Crease]

I don't remember the exact time frame, but the fight was signed more than once and Calzaghe kept pulling out.

I thought that Johnson pulled out of the fight through injury?

There was a definitely one stance were Johnson pulled out, I remember.

[Crease]

His title reign is a joke. Jermain Taylor might have a more legit record than Calzaghe

22 World Title defences is no joke.

And in regards to Taylor, what has he done in his career?

1. He beat Hopkins... And that achievement is equalled by Calzaghe.

2. He was the Undisputed Middleweight Champion... However, that achievement should be credited to Bernard Hopkins, it was Hopkins who unified the titles.

Calzaghe was the man who unified the Super Middlweight division, that achievement too surpasses Taylor.

Taylor's career does not surpass Joes. And his legacy won't even be a footnote compared to Calzaghe's record.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't remember the exact time frame, but the fight was signed more than once and Calzaghe kept pulling out.

I thought that Johnson pulled out of the fight through injury?

There was a definitely one stance were Johnson pulled out, I remember.

Not that I've ever heard of, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Knucklez]

Overrated bum, at best.

That is despicable. My friend let me inform you of two things:

1. Bums do NOT hold a Major World Title for over 10 years.

2. Bums do NOT beat the likes of Hopkins and Jones Jr.

As has been pointed out on countless occasions on this thread - Jones Jr was a shell of his former self and had pretty much nothing left. This was clearly evidenced in his KO losses both before and after the JC fight. Hopkins was still threatening but was way past peak. You're not going to convince me that Calzaghe victory over a 43 year old marks him for greatness.

ps 2. Bums do NOT beat the likes of Hopkins and Jones Jr. [/quote] - presume you therefore rate Trevor Berbick as an ATG as well? After all, he beat Muhammad Ali.

[Knucklez]

What fights were there though?

In my opinion:

Ottke - a fight that maybe should have happened... I reckon Calzaghe would have outpointed Sven.

Beyer - my personal favourite fight. Cal wins on points.

Woods - Cal wins again maybe by late stoppage.

Johnsoon - an entertaining fight, but Joe's endurance keeps him punching.

maybe Collins? - Collins stood a decent chance at beating Joe, but we never know.

In other words, the top fighters in the division.

[Ezzard]

Just to say that Hopkins was the champ when Calzaghe beat him. Doesn’t mean Joe wins the peak match up but you can’t just pretend that the fight meant nothing.

I wouldn’t have Joe in my p4p top 75 based on his achievements but you can make a fair case for him beating anyone around 168.

He didn’t do enough to be one of the legends of the sport that transcend national boundaries but he did do enough to be considered a great.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It'll be a cold day in Hell before I recognise the WBO as major.

That is your preference.

But it is accepted by practically everybody that the WBO is one of the four Major World Titles.

Puh-lease. Sell it to someone whose buying. The belts manufactured con-job on HBO is convincing the masses --- ie, the least studious observers, or, put another way, the absolute lowest common denominator.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Just to say that Hopkins was the champ when Calzaghe beat him. Doesn’t mean Joe wins the peak match up but you can’t just pretend that the fight meant nothing.

I wouldn’t have Joe in my p4p top 75 based on his achievements but you can make a fair case for him beating anyone around 168.

He didn’t do enough to be one of the legends of the sport that transcend national boundaries but he did do enough to be considered a great.

There's one stand-out exception to that --- the prime Jones. Calzaghe doesn't get within a hundred miles of beating Jones' best at 168, IMO.

[Ezzard]

Just to say that Hopkins was the champ when Calzaghe beat him. Doesn’t mean Joe wins the peak match up but you can’t just pretend that the fight meant nothing.

I wouldn’t have Joe in my p4p top 75 based on his achievements but you can make a fair case for him beating anyone around 168.

He didn’t do enough to be one of the legends of the sport that transcend national boundaries but he did do enough to be considered a great.

There's one stand-out exception to that --- the prime Jones. Calzaghe doesn't get within a hundred miles of beating Jones' best at 168, IMO.

Yaaaawwwwn!

Pump him full of the same PEDs and who knows. He'd definitely be his hardest fight at the weight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Who knows? I do. Jones thrashes Calzaghe at 168. Anyone else would have a helluva time with him & probably be beaten, but I cannot think of a single scenario where Calzaghe would win seven rounds from that Jones.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I could see calzaghe outworking Toney, in fact i would expect it.

[Ezzard]

Who knows? I do.

No you don't.

I cannot think of a single scenario where Calzaghe would win seven rounds from that Jones.

Then try harder.

[Ezzard]

I could see Calzaghe outworking Toney, in fact i would expect it.

So would I BUT the Toney who beat Nunn could stand in range, soak it up and land powerful accurate shots right back at his tormentor. I can see Calzaghe holding on for the decision but I can see him getting hurt in the last few rounds.

Would have been a good scrap. Although Toney would probably not have been in good enough shape once he got past 160...

[Seamus]

I'd pick Calzaghe to beat Toney as well. Bad matchup for JT, fast southpaw who wouldn't stand right in front of him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Who knows? I do.

No you don't.

I cannot think of a single scenario where Calzaghe would win seven rounds from that Jones.

Then try harder.

I'd need a British passport to, "try harder."

[Ezzard]

Who knows? I do.

No you don't.

I cannot think of a single scenario where Calzaghe would win seven rounds from that Jones.

Then try harder.

I'd need a British passport to, "try harder."

Oh well, looks like you'll just have to renew the one you've got for Binary-land.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Show me a non-Brit who likes Calzaghe's chances against the Jones of 168, Ezz 8)

[dberry]

Didn't Kessler fight almost the entire fight with a broken hand? And still make it a relatively close fight?