BoxRec

Wow --- Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, even Joe FVCKING Frazier --- all, "too big" for Louis to beat. Then he has EARNIE SHAVERS --- the most one-dimensional, over-rated contender in division history beating Louis.

L-O-Fvcking-L

elmersalsa wrote:

Idisagree wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:If the great Billy Conn, who only weighed 167lbs in that fight and almost put the great Joe Louis down, what would a guy like the great Muhammad Ali, would do?

Too fast, too big and too strong. Ali all the way.

Nonsense. Who won (Louis vs Conn) the fight in the end and how? Too big? Please!! Ali best weight was probably in or around the 220 mark. That would not be that much of a difference.

Too strong???? That is a weird statement. I would say the strongest of the two would have been Louis.

This fight is 50/50 for me.

BTW weren't you the one complaining that Ali always won on every possible scenario? And now you claim that that Ali would have an easy time against Louis. Weird!!!

"Two Ton" Tony Galento dropped the great Joe Louis. Galento was even 5'7".
The great Billy Conn had Louis in trouble, just weighing 167 pounds.
Max Schmelling stopped Louis in 12.
Tammi Mauriello dropped Louis in the first round.
The great Rocky Marciano almost killed Louis. Put him almost outside the ropes.
On his world heavyweight title win, Louis was dropped by James J. Braddock. Another light-hitting punching guy.

None of these fighters had the reach, the quickness nor accuracy that the great Muhammad Ali had. Watch the Cleveland Williams fight.

It seems to me that Louis did not have a great chin to begin with. I cannot see him beat none of the great heavyweights after the crowning of the great Sonny Liston. I feel that Louis would beat guys like Ingemar Johansson, Floyd Patterson, and the great Archie Moore at heavyweight. But guys like the greats Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, and Riddick Bowe would be too big for him. Not to mention guys like Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton and the great Larry Holmes would beat Louis, too.

Sonny Banks dropped Muhammad Ali
Henry Cooper dropped Muhammad Ali
Leon Spinks nearly killed him
etc.........

Any resume can be rundown. What in the world is watching Ali beating up a literally shot Cleveland Williams supposed to prove? That Ali will destroy a nearly crippled man? Bravo

That's the most overrated performance in history. Amazing how many people point to it when a fight couldn't be more meaningless. that means about as much as Holmes/Ali.

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:

Seamus wrote:Who did Joe Louis have trouble hitting Pre WW2 ?

179 lb Bob Pastor in their first bout in 1937. It was a pretty close fight in which Louis frequently missed his smaller opponent. In fact, Pastor thought a draw would have been a fair result.

To answer raylaw and saad, I would also add Godoy, Conn, Farr, and Schmeling in their first fight.

Look at photos of Godoy's, Farr's and Schmeling's faces after the fight and you might have a different opinion. And if the issue is whether these fights show that Louis would have been troubled with Ali, Godoy and Farr are not good examples. They survived by mauling and staying close to Louis and inside his wheelhouse. And Louis had trouble with guys who used a crouch. Ali would not have done any of that. Conn - well, Louis did have some trouble landing on Conn, but he kayoed Conn in the 13th - so I guess he landed when he had to.

That is true, they did not have the same style as Ali. No one did, not even Conn. He moved around a lot more than Conn. He was much taller, much heavier, hit much harder and had a much longer reach than Conn. If Louis had fought that way against Ali he probably would not have made it to the the 13th round. The punches he did knockout Conn with may be good enough to knockout Conn but they would not have kncoked Ali out, even if he had landed them.

Ali was knocked down a grand total of four times during his career. (Louis was knocked down 10).
Each time he got up by the count of 3. When he was older and much easier to hit, countless time he was nailed with big shots by very hard punchers (Foreman, Frazier,Shavers etc.) and nothing happened.
Ali was never knocked down during his prime.
Ali was never hurt during his prime.
Ali never lost more than 3 rounds in a fight during his prime.

I don't mean to be ripping Louis here. I do consider him the #2 heavyweight of all-time. However, there is simply only a remote chance that even Louis is going to ko a guy who who is very difficult to hit and has a great chin. He is more likely to get stopped himself. More likley is that Ali wins on points.

meh. when Conn briefly hurt Louis, or at least stung him a bit, it was with a triple left hook body-head-head, from memory. Ali never threw a triple left hook in his life.

or a decent bodyshot, for that matter.

Ambling Alp wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote: To answer raylaw and saad, I would also add Godoy, Conn, Farr, and Schmeling in their first fight.

Look at photos of Godoy's, Farr's and Schmeling's faces after the fight and you might have a different opinion. And if the issue is whether these fights show that Louis would have been troubled with Ali, Godoy and Farr are not good examples. They survived by mauling and staying close to Louis and inside his wheelhouse. And Louis had trouble with guys who used a crouch. Ali would not have done any of that. Conn - well, Louis did have some trouble landing on Conn, but he kayoed Conn in the 13th - so I guess he landed when he had to.

That is true, they did not have the same style as Ali. No one did, not even Conn. He moved around a lot more than Conn. He was much taller, much heavier, hit much harder and had a much longer reach than Conn. If Louis had fought that way against Ali he probably would not have made it to the the 13th round. The punches he did knockout Conn with may be good enough to knockout Conn but they would not have kncoked Ali out, even if he had landed them.

Ali was knocked down a grand total of four times during his career. (Louis was knocked down 10).
Each time he got up by the count of 3. When he was older and much easier to hit, countless time he was nailed with big shots by very hard punchers (Foreman, Frazier,Shavers etc.) and nothing happened.
Ali was never knocked down during his prime.
Ali was never hurt during his prime.
Ali never lost more than 3 rounds in a fight during his prime.

I don't mean to be ripping Louis here. I do consider him the #2 heavyweight of all-time. However, there is simply only a remote chance that even Louis is going to ko a guy who who is very difficult to hit and has a great chin. He is more likely to get stopped himself. More likley is that Ali wins on points.

Would you not consider him in his prime when he got knocked down by Henry Cooper?

Ambling Alp wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote: To answer raylaw and saad, I would also add Godoy, Conn, Farr, and Schmeling in their first fight.

Look at photos of Godoy's, Farr's and Schmeling's faces after the fight and you might have a different opinion. And if the issue is whether these fights show that Louis would have been troubled with Ali, Godoy and Farr are not good examples. They survived by mauling and staying close to Louis and inside his wheelhouse. And Louis had trouble with guys who used a crouch. Ali would not have done any of that. Conn - well, Louis did have some trouble landing on Conn, but he kayoed Conn in the 13th - so I guess he landed when he had to.

That is true, they did not have the same style as Ali. No one did, not even Conn. He moved around a lot more than Conn. He was much taller, much heavier, hit much harder and had a much longer reach than Conn. If Louis had fought that way against Ali he probably would not have made it to the the 13th round. The punches he did knockout Conn with may be good enough to knockout Conn but they would not have kncoked Ali out, even if he had landed them.

Ali was knocked down a grand total of four times during his career. (Louis was knocked down 10).
Each time he got up by the count of 3. When he was older and much easier to hit, countless time he was nailed with big shots by very hard punchers (Foreman, Frazier,Shavers etc.) and nothing happened.
Ali was never knocked down during his prime.
Ali was never hurt during his prime.
Ali never lost more than 3 rounds in a fight during his prime.

I don't mean to be ripping Louis here. I do consider him the #2 heavyweight of all-time. However, there is simply only a remote chance that even Louis is going to ko a guy who who is very difficult to hit and has a great chin. He is more likely to get stopped himself. More likley is that Ali wins on points.

I always get tired when people suggest that "(Fill in the blank) never had to face someone like Ali." Let me suggest that Ali never had to face an opponent the caliber of Joe Louis. When one tries to judge who was best among the super elite heavyweight champions - Jeffries, Louis, and Ali - its always going to be a "pick 'em." These guys were just so good, how can anyone say with certainty that one was "likely" to lose to the other?

They can’t say it with any conviction, ray. I gave it to Ali by the thinness of a sheet of well-worn paper. And I made it clear that either man could win.

What people also miss is that boxers as good as these can adapt in the middle of a fight – and more than once if they need to. Louis would not sleep walk through 15 rounds doing the same things and neither would Ali.

Ezzard wrote:They can’t say it with any conviction, ray. I gave it to Ali by the thinness of a sheet of well-worn paper. And I made it clear that either man could win.

What people also miss is that boxers as good as these can adapt in the middle of a fight – and more than once if they need to. Louis would not sleep walk through 15 rounds doing the same things and neither would Ali.

My vote: "Who the heck knows??"

raylawpc wrote: I always get tired when people suggest that "(Louis) never had to face someone like Ali." Let me suggest that Ali never had to face an opponent the caliber of Joe Louis. When one tries to judge who was best among the super elite heavyweight champions - Jeffries, Louis, and Ali - its always going to be a "pick 'em." These guys were just so good, how can anyone say with certainty that one was "likely" to lose to the other?

2X

To answer Keithmoon-No I don't consider Ali (Clay) to be quite in his prime yet. He was 21 and it was only his 19th pro fight. He was still at the stage where you could see improvement from one fight to the next, though there were still some rough spots to iron out. He was getting there though. The knockdown aside, he looked very good in that fight and you could see the potential.

To answer raylaw-Well it is true that Ali never met anyone the caliber of Louis and vice versa. They were the top 2 heavyweights of all-time, so it pretty much has to be that way. . Who is the best opponent that Louis beat? Schmeling, Baer?
That is a bigger gap that Louis would going from when he fought Ali than vice versa. Liston/ Frazier/ Foreman would not be nearly as big of a jump for Ali to make when he would have to fight. Stylewise, Louis never fought that close to Ali. I guess Walcott would be the closest, which was late Louis' career and not really relevant. Ali did fight guys who were atleast vaguely like Louis, though obviously not as good.

Louis was a conventional fighter, who did that extremely well. Ali was a phenomenal talent with a lot of heart which was made him so special. As Marciano said, he was a heavyweight Sugar Ray Robinson.
It would be easier for Ali to adjust.

Of course we will never know who would have won. And it is boxing. There are cuts, premature stoppages etc that occasionally take place. We can only use the best info that we have and form an opinion. I just think we should compare apples to apples when we do this. Often people take a prime Louis and then with Ali count fights like Leon Spinks or Earnie Shavers and think that is fair.

As I suggested once before, they should be compared at similar ages and stages in their career.
For example, I don't see a 32 year old Louis (1946) beating George Foreman, like Ali did.

Anyway, that is how I see it.

Ambling Alp wrote:To answer Keithmoon-No I don't consider Ali (Clay) to be quite in his prime yet. He was 21 and it was only his 19th pro fight. He was still at the stage where you could see improvement from one fight to the next, though there were still some rough spots to iron out. He was getting there though. The knockdown aside, he looked very good in that fight and you could see the potential.

To answer raylaw-Well it is true that Ali never met anyone the caliber of Louis and vice versa. They were the top 2 heavyweights of all-time, so it pretty much has to be that way. . Who is the best opponent that Louis beat? Schmeling, Baer?
That is a bigger gap that Louis would going from when he fought Ali than vice versa. Liston/ Frazier/ Foreman would not be nearly as big of a jump for Ali to make when he would have to fight. Stylewise, Louis never fought that close to Ali. I guess Walcott would be the closest, which was late Louis' career and not really relevant. Ali did fight guys who were atleast vaguely like Louis, though obviously not as good.

Louis was a conventional fighter, who did that extremely well. Ali was a phenomenal talent with a lot of heart which was made him so special. As Marciano said, he was a heavyweight Sugar Ray Robinson.
It would be easier for Ali to adjust.

Of course we will never know who would have won. And it is boxing. There are cuts, premature stoppages etc that occasionally take place. We can only use the best info that we have and form an opinion. I just think we should compare apples to apples when we do this. Often people take a prime Louis and then with Ali count fights like Leon Spinks or Earnie Shavers and think that is fair.

As I suggested once before, they should be compared at similar ages and stages in their career.
For example, I don't see a 32 year old Louis (1946) beating George Foreman, like Ali did.

Anyway, that is how I see it.

When do you consider Ali's prime to have begun, Alp?

Ambling Alp wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote: To answer raylaw and saad, I would also add Godoy, Conn, Farr, and Schmeling in their first fight.

Look at photos of Godoy's, Farr's and Schmeling's faces after the fight and you might have a different opinion. And if the issue is whether these fights show that Louis would have been troubled with Ali, Godoy and Farr are not good examples. They survived by mauling and staying close to Louis and inside his wheelhouse. And Louis had trouble with guys who used a crouch. Ali would not have done any of that. Conn - well, Louis did have some trouble landing on Conn, but he kayoed Conn in the 13th - so I guess he landed when he had to.

That is true, they did not have the same style as Ali. No one did, not even Conn. He moved around a lot more than Conn. He was much taller, much heavier, hit much harder and had a much longer reach than Conn. If Louis had fought that way against Ali he probably would not have made it to the the 13th round. The punches he did knockout Conn with may be good enough to knockout Conn but they would not have kncoked Ali out, even if he had landed them.

Ali was knocked down a grand total of four times during his career. (Louis was knocked down 10).
Each time he got up by the count of 3. When he was older and much easier to hit, countless time he was nailed with big shots by very hard punchers (Foreman, Frazier,Shavers etc.) and nothing happened.
Ali was never knocked down during his prime.
Ali was never hurt during his prime.
Ali never lost more than 3 rounds in a fight during his prime.

I don't mean to be ripping Louis here. I do consider him the #2 heavyweight of all-time. However, there is simply only a remote chance that even Louis is going to ko a guy who who is very difficult to hit and has a great chin. He is more likely to get stopped himself. More likley is that Ali wins on points.

Thank you Alp. You and I do not always agree, but I give you this one. Ali would have been too big, too fast and too savvy for a slow guy like Louis. Louis did not have a chin. That is his downfall. One punch by Frazier, Tyson or Foreman or Liston or any other great big heavyweight and Louis is out of there.

Ali's prime was from 1965 to 1967. He was at his very best. I don't see Louis beating that version of "The Greatest".

elmersalsa wrote:Ali's prime was from 1965 to 1967. He was at his very best. I don't see Louis beating that version of "The Greatest".

Typical of elmer, Ali's prime was only three years, just like Duran

Indeed, Ali's prime was quite possibly during his time off. But the younger Clay that everyone fancies wasn't as sturdy as the post layoff Ali to be sending against the all time greats. Louis puts pre-layoff Ali to sleep imo. He would look foolish for rounds, when he caught him he would ice him.

I'd take the Ali from the first Frazier fight over most versions. He was just facing a destroying machine that night and fans just can't admit that a good Ali got his ass whipped by a better man in a fantastic fight. Very similar to Holyfield/Bowe 1 & Leonard/Duran 1. Even the best meet their maker sometimes. Ali is a legend, he doesn't need all of the excuses his legions of message board warriors offer up on a daily basis.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:To answer Keithmoon-No I don't consider Ali (Clay) to be quite in his prime yet. He was 21 and it was only his 19th pro fight. He was still at the stage where you could see improvement from one fight to the next, though there were still some rough spots to iron out. He was getting there though. The knockdown aside, he looked very good in that fight and you could see the potential.

To answer raylaw-Well it is true that Ali never met anyone the caliber of Louis and vice versa. They were the top 2 heavyweights of all-time, so it pretty much has to be that way. . Who is the best opponent that Louis beat? Schmeling, Baer?
That is a bigger gap that Louis would going from when he fought Ali than vice versa. Liston/ Frazier/ Foreman would not be nearly as big of a jump for Ali to make when he would have to fight. Stylewise, Louis never fought that close to Ali. I guess Walcott would be the closest, which was late Louis' career and not really relevant. Ali did fight guys who were atleast vaguely like Louis, though obviously not as good.

Louis was a conventional fighter, who did that extremely well. Ali was a phenomenal talent with a lot of heart which was made him so special. As Marciano said, he was a heavyweight Sugar Ray Robinson.
It would be easier for Ali to adjust.

Of course we will never know who would have won. And it is boxing. There are cuts, premature stoppages etc that occasionally take place. We can only use the best info that we have and form an opinion. I just think we should compare apples to apples when we do this. Often people take a prime Louis and then with Ali count fights like Leon Spinks or Earnie Shavers and think that is fair.

As I suggested once before, they should be compared at similar ages and stages in their career.
For example, I don't see a 32 year old Louis (1946) beating George Foreman, like Ali did.

Anyway, that is how I see it.

When do you consider Ali's prime to have begun, Alp?

Hard to exactly to pinpoint one fight, but I guess the first Liston fight or slightly after. He put it all together and fought a great fight. Maybe he was slightly better in the next few years after gaining more experience. He had all the physical tools. There is no reason to suggest that he was not a durable. No evidence of that at all. He was never even hurt during his first title reign. Even had he fought a Foreman or Louis during this time and did get hurt (whcih is unlikely), he would have had even better recuperative powers then he did when he got older.

His prime probably would have gone on for 4 or 5 more years and then he probably would gradually declined. Of course we can only speculate on what would have happened.

I think he had matured physically & mentally, experience-wise, to begin his peak around the time of the first Patterson fight or a little after. 65-67, IMO.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I think he had matured physically & mentally, experience-wise, to begin his peak around the time of the first Patterson fight or a little after. 65-67, IMO.

I think Ali's prime was at his best against Cleveland Williams.

elmersalsa wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:

raylawpc wrote: Look at photos of Godoy's, Farr's and Schmeling's faces after the fight and you might have a different opinion. And if the issue is whether these fights show that Louis would have been troubled with Ali, Godoy and Farr are not good examples. They survived by mauling and staying close to Louis and inside his wheelhouse. And Louis had trouble with guys who used a crouch. Ali would not have done any of that. Conn - well, Louis did have some trouble landing on Conn, but he kayoed Conn in the 13th - so I guess he landed when he had to.

That is true, they did not have the same style as Ali. No one did, not even Conn. He moved around a lot more than Conn. He was much taller, much heavier, hit much harder and had a much longer reach than Conn. If Louis had fought that way against Ali he probably would not have made it to the the 13th round. The punches he did knockout Conn with may be good enough to knockout Conn but they would not have kncoked Ali out, even if he had landed them.

Ali was knocked down a grand total of four times during his career. (Louis was knocked down 10).
Each time he got up by the count of 3. When he was older and much easier to hit, countless time he was nailed with big shots by very hard punchers (Foreman, Frazier,Shavers etc.) and nothing happened.
Ali was never knocked down during his prime.
Ali was never hurt during his prime.
Ali never lost more than 3 rounds in a fight during his prime.

I don't mean to be ripping Louis here. I do consider him the #2 heavyweight of all-time. However, there is simply only a remote chance that even Louis is going to ko a guy who who is very difficult to hit and has a great chin. He is more likely to get stopped himself. More likley is that Ali wins on points.

Thank you Alp. You and I do not always agree, but I give you this one. Ali would have been too big, too fast and too savvy for a slow guy like Louis. Louis did not have a chin. That is his downfall. One punch by Frazier, Tyson or Foreman or Liston or any other great big heavyweight and Louis is out of there.

I don't think Floyd Patterson or Ernie Terrell had better chins than Joe Louis; yet, Terrell went the whole 15 and it took Ali 12 to stop a back-injured Patterson. (And, no, I don't believe Ali carried them as some kind of "punishment.") As I said, I don't know who would win, but I don't think it would be Ali on a knockout - not against a post-Schmeling I/pre-WWII Joe Louis.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I think he had matured physically & mentally, experience-wise, to begin his peak around the time of the first Patterson fight or a little after. 65-67, IMO.

I think Ali's prime was at his best against Cleveland Williams.

That includes the timeframe I'm talking about, so I agree --- but it's the most over-blown performance ever. Seriously.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I think he had matured physically & mentally, experience-wise, to begin his peak around the time of the first Patterson fight or a little after. 65-67, IMO.

I think Ali's prime was at his best against Cleveland Williams.

That includes the timeframe I'm talking about, so I agree --- but it's the most over-blown performance ever. Seriously.

I named my first cat after Cleveland Williams. That's how much of boxing nerd I was.

My current cat's name is Dinamita (Juan Manuel Marquez's nickname).

Goodnight, Irene wrote:My current cat's name is Dinamita (Juan Manuel Marquez's nickname).

Maybe we need a new thread!

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:My current cat's name is Dinamita (Juan Manuel Marquez's nickname).

Maybe we need a new thread!

Have at it 8)