BoxRec

You are going to get the Foreman haters and lovers fired up now . . .

It is very telling when a fighter fights weaker opposition leading up to their title fight, which Marciano clearly did not. He fought soft, but as his skills advanced he was matched tougher, while our un-named ATG fought a few tough fights and then his competition was stepped back due to a clear lack of progression. And inexplicably, most today rate the un-named ATG MUCH higher than Rocky, aided I'm sure by his celebrity status.

Anyaway, as I stated, Marciano's opposition was as good, or better than the majority of other HW champs, and he did beat every one of them, an accomplishment that no other HW champion can claim.

Ambling Alp wrote:To be fair to the mystery ATG that you are referring to, before those 9 fights leading up to his first title shot, he also had wins over guys with these records:

82-6-8 (He beat this opponent earlier as well, in his first year as a pro)
59-15-2
22-1

And the Rock beat a guy that was 37-0 and another that was 16-1 earlier in his career. The difference was that one of these ATGs was matched progressively tougher, while the other was fed soft touches after he knocked off a couple of names, so as to avoid a likely upset. Very much like Povetkin is being managed today.

raylawpc wrote:You are going to get the Foreman haters and lovers fired up now . . .

8)

Who mentioned him?

I just wanted to present a few facts in order to support a very logical opinion based upon those facts. And it was all presented in the hopes of defending the honor of the late Rocky Marciano.

Ambling Alp wrote:Marciano was not difficult to hit.

That’s what sportswriters said. However, some people in boxing had a different notion:

Keene Simmons: “When you look at him from outside the ring he seems easy to hit but if you’re in the ring with him you find this isn’t the case. His head is bobbing and he’s crouched low, so low in fact that you can’t get a clear shot at him.”

Roland LaStarza: “Rocky fools you. He doesn’t take as much punishment as it seems. He looks easy to hit inside but he isn’t.”

Angelo Dundee: “He was not that easy to hit. He had that misconception. He used to slide on you, he would stick you with that jab much, much better than anybody realized.”

Jimmy Breslin: “He didn’t get hit as much as it looked. He didn’t get hit that much at all. He was pretty cute."

I found these quotes in Russell Sullivan’s book on Rocky Marciano: The Rock of His Times, p. 180.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Great John L wrote:
I'd have this a pick 'em fight. If they fought 10 times, they'd probably each win one

8 draws?

A typo that has been corrected.

Ambling Alp wrote:To be fair to the mystery ATG that you are referring to, before those 9 fights leading up to his first title shot, he also had wins over guys with these records:

82-6-8 (He beat this opponent earlier as well, in his first year as a pro)
59-15-2
22-1

Both he and Marciano had a lot of fights before getting a title shot. (He had 37, Marciano had 42) Both were very unpolished when starting their pro careers and needed a lot of experience. They fought a lot of tomato cans but also also had some decent opponents.

Of course win/loss records can very deceiving in boxing. Nevertheless, it is a valid point that Marciano didn't fight as bad of competition as some people seem to believe.

That was never in John L's consideration. Never has been.

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Marciano was not difficult to hit.

That’s what sportswriters said. However, some people in boxing had a different notion:

Keene Simmons: “When you look at him from outside the ring he seems easy to hit but if you’re in the ring with him you find this isn’t the case. His head is bobbing and he’s crouched low, so low in fact that you can’t get a clear shot at him.”

Roland LaStarza: “Rocky fools you. He doesn’t take as much punishment as it seems. He looks easy to hit inside but he isn’t.”

Angelo Dundee: “He was not that easy to hit. He had that misconception. He used to slide on you, he would stick you with that jab much, much better than anybody realized.”

Jimmy Breslin: “He didn’t get hit as much as it looked. He didn’t get hit that much at all. He was pretty cute."

I found these quotes in Russell Sullivan’s book on Rocky Marciano: The Rock of His Times, p. 180.

There was a youtube video floating around that highlighted the fact that Rocky was quite adept in defence when it suited him.

Ambling Alp wrote:As for the original post, Marciano did not fight the best competition of any heavyweight.

Mate, no-one said that, if you are referring to NogNogTheBear, he merely asked:

NogNogTheBear wrote:Did Marchegiano take on the top contenders in his class, or did he duck his way to 49-0?

Later in the thread, I stated:

Crease wrote:As well as any Heavyweight in history, Rocky had to work for his shot and he did beat more top contenders that pratically everyone else.
(and I'm talking when he was a contender, not as a champion as his title reign was relatively short).

But certainly no-one said that.

Ambling Alp wrote:Marciano did not fight Valdes, Satterfield or Baker. So what? All three lost many times to lesser fighters. All three are overrated. Marciano would have whipped all three.

Please re-read the content of my post. I agree that Marciano would beat all three of them (probably stopped them all too, in my opinion).
The only reason I mentioned Baker and Satterfield was because of this myth of "Rocky avoiding Valdes" which I have heard numerous occasions over the years.

This non-fact is often use to slate Rocky. There are a handful of idiots out there who masquerade as "informed" (apparently) boxing pundits believe that Marciano ducked Valdes, Colin Hart for one of them, as can be seen: 5 mins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cX6dMen ... re=related
In this video, Hart is overly-critical of Marciano, "he only beat blwon up light heavyweights, Charles, Moore".
What Hart does not say is that Charles was probably the best in the division at that time, and Rocky fought him twice on the bounce.


And as for his critique of Valdes knocking out Marciano, Valdes couldn't even knockout his fellow outside the top 5 contenders.

To say that Marciano avoided Valdes, is the same as saying he avoided Baker or Satterfield.
And that is laughable.

kaiserbill wrote:There was a youtube video floating around that highlighted the fact that Rocky was quite adept in defence when it suited him.

Rocky's clumsy style was unique, no top-class fighter knew how to deal with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yHvw-vW0

Crease wrote:

kaiserbill wrote:There was a youtube video floating around that highlighted the fact that Rocky was quite adept in defence when it suited him.

Rocky's clumsy style was unique, no top-class fighter knew how to deal with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yHvw-vW0

Fascinating thing watching that video. Marciano actually slips a lot of punches, far more than you'd think.
The other thing is how strangely effective he was at counterpunching, and how quick he was when taking advantage of an opening, even when off balance. Very quick in fact, with hard punches.

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Marciano was not difficult to hit.

That’s what sportswriters said. However, some people in boxing had a different notion:

Keene Simmons: “When you look at him from outside the ring he seems easy to hit but if you’re in the ring with him you find this isn’t the case. His head is bobbing and he’s crouched low, so low in fact that you can’t get a clear shot at him.”

Roland LaStarza: “Rocky fools you. He doesn’t take as much punishment as it seems. He looks easy to hit inside but he isn’t.”

Angelo Dundee: “He was not that easy to hit. He had that misconception. He used to slide on you, he would stick you with that jab much, much better than anybody realized.”

Jimmy Breslin: “He didn’t get hit as much as it looked. He didn’t get hit that much at all. He was pretty cute."

I found these quotes in Russell Sullivan’s book on Rocky Marciano: The Rock of His Times, p. 180.

I seem to recall seeing a story about the making of the Ali-Marciano Super Fight Series and Ali himself said that when Marciano did get into that crouch that he was much more difficult to hit clean than one might have imagined. I don't recall which documentary it was, but I am pretty sure I recall hearing it since it really registered with me. Of course, having said all that, one has to wonder just how prone to cuts Rocky was.....after all, this guy is tougher to hit than we thought....that just makes the cuts seem like a real achilles heel. :)

I tend to like Marciano in this one. They are both great, great fighters (captain obvious). But every once in awhile there is a guy who just has an awkward style to go with a special kind of talent. That can be very hard to prepare for. In one meeting, that could be just enough to put him over the top.

One thought, was there an advantage in the corner? Seems like a no. Both guys had awfully good corners it seems. But, I'd be interested if someone thought that might make a difference in such a close fight.

kaiserbill wrote:Fascinating thing watching that video. Marciano actually slips a lot of punches, far more than you'd think.
The other thing is how strangely effective he was at counterpunching, and how quick he was when taking advantage of an opening, even when off balance. Very quick in fact, with hard punches.

Indeed. And he doesn't get credit for it because he wasn't as classy or eye-catching as Louis, Walcott and Charles were before him.

Marciano's style was very unusual, he held his head in odd angles when throwing punches, and was effective with ducking and slipping while on the inside.

Though of course there is this public opinion that Marciano was just a glorified slugger and had no defensive attributes whatsoever (apart from a steady chin).

But I would not reccommend that you try to change public opinion, you will get insulted and ridiculed for it. Best just go along for the stereotype.
A lot of posters on here disreghard others opinions if it doesn't "tie in" with their own.

jas80s wrote:I seem to recall seeing a story about the making of the Ali-Marciano Super Fight Series and Ali himself said that when Marciano did get into that crouch that he was much more difficult to hit clean than one might have imagined. I don't recall which documentary it was, but I am pretty sure I recall hearing it since it really registered with me. Of course, having said all that, one has to wonder just how prone to cuts Rocky was.....after all, this guy is tougher to hit than we thought....that just makes the cuts seem like a real achilles heel. :)

Didn't Ali himself say that Marciano was hard to hit. There is a wuote somehwere...

I don't think cuts were Marciano's achilles heel, he didn't cut that easily, as the wound he sustained from Charles came from a rising elbow. And that would cut anyone's face.

Bonavena.

oh, and (unsurprisingly) I'd pick Marciano over Frazier... Rocky could do flat-out for 15 rounds, could Joe Frazier?
That's debatable.

LOL, how is that debatable? Now Frazier's stamina is suspect? Are we talking about Marvis?

Crease wrote:oh, and (unsurprisingly) I'd pick Marciano over Frazier... Rocky could do flat-out for 15 rounds, could Joe Frazier?
That's debatable.

Brilliant.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:LOL, how is that debatable? Now Frazier's stamina is suspect? Are we talking about Marvis?

Well didn't Frazier boast about his 2-month army training leading up to his ifght with Ali.

Whereas Marciano ran 3 mile everyday, (when he wasn't in training for a fight).

kaiserbill wrote:

Crease wrote:

kaiserbill wrote:There was a youtube video floating around that highlighted the fact that Rocky was quite adept in defence when it suited him.

Rocky's clumsy style was unique, no top-class fighter knew how to deal with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yHvw-vW0

Fascinating thing watching that video. Marciano actually slips a lot of punches, far more than you'd think.
The other thing is how strangely effective he was at counterpunching, and how quick he was when taking advantage of an opening, even when off balance. Very quick in fact, with hard punches.

that is the problem with Youtube. People watch a few brief highlights and think that is accurrate. Watch all ofthe fights that are available. Walcctt, Charles,Moore,La Starza, a way past it Louis, even Cockell. They all had very little trouble hitting him.
The nice things that Ali or anyone else said about him doesn't really mean anything.

Defense was not his strong suit by a longshot. His chin, power, and tenacity were what made him great.
His stamina was great, but so was Frazier's. could Frazier go all out for 15 rounds? Yes, we have seen him do it. Actually Marciano only went 15 one time himself. However, there is little evidence that either would have a major problem.

Crease wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:LOL, how is that debatable? Now Frazier's stamina is suspect? Are we talking about Marvis?

Well didn't Frazier boast about his 2-month army training leading up to his ifght with Ali.

Whereas Marciano ran 3 mile everyday, (when he wasn't in training for a fight).

Good for Rocky! I'll let you in on a little secret, Frazier could go for fifteen rounds. Saying otherwise just shows your cards. If you want to come off as a fan boy with little or no objectivity. Then you're doing a bang up job.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Crease wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:LOL, how is that debatable? Now Frazier's stamina is suspect? Are we talking about Marvis?

Well didn't Frazier boast about his 2-month army training leading up to his ifght with Ali.

Whereas Marciano ran 3 mile everyday, (when he wasn't in training for a fight).

Good for Rocky! I'll let you in on a little secret, Frazier could go for fifteen rounds. Saying otherwise just shows your cards. If you want to come off as a fan boy with little or no objectivity. Then you're doing a bang up job.

Rocky didn't run three miles "everyday." He went for long walks everyday, though. In 1955, Charlie Goldman said he knew Rocky was planning to retire when Rocky confessed he was no longer going for a walk everyday.

Today, Rocky might have jogged everyday. But back in the 1950s, people didn't jog for recreation like today. You ran if you were training in the military, you were an athlete in training, or a cop was chasing you.

Ambling Alp wrote:

kaiserbill wrote:

Crease wrote: Rocky's clumsy style was unique, no top-class fighter knew how to deal with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yHvw-vW0

Fascinating thing watching that video. Marciano actually slips a lot of punches, far more than you'd think.
The other thing is how strangely effective he was at counterpunching, and how quick he was when taking advantage of an opening, even when off balance. Very quick in fact, with hard punches.

that is the problem with Youtube. People watch a few brief highlights and think that is accurrate. Watch all ofthe fights that are available. Walcctt, Charles,Moore,La Starza, a way past it Louis, even Cockell. They all had very little trouble hitting him.
The nice things that Ali or anyone else said about him doesn't really mean anything.

Defense was not his strong suit by a longshot. His chin, power, and tenacity were what made him great.
His stamina was great, but so was Frazier's. could Frazier go all out for 15 rounds? Yes, we have seen him do it. Actually Marciano only went 15 one time himself. However, there is little evidence that either would have a major problem.

You would have made a great sportswriter, Alp. But the fact is that knowledgable people in boxing said that Rocky had a pretty good defense, and you can see it on the films. He was no Young Griffo or Willie Pep (Rocky got hit), but his defense was not that bad. He rolled with a lot of punches, and blocked punches with efficiency.

Crease wrote: A lot of posters on here disreghard others opinions if it doesn't "tie in" with their own.

You've noticed that

raylawpc wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:

kaiserbill wrote: Fascinating thing watching that video. Marciano actually slips a lot of punches, far more than you'd think.
The other thing is how strangely effective he was at counterpunching, and how quick he was when taking advantage of an opening, even when off balance. Very quick in fact, with hard punches.

that is the problem with Youtube. People watch a few brief highlights and think that is accurrate. Watch all ofthe fights that are available. Walcctt, Charles,Moore,La Starza, a way past it Louis, even Cockell. They all had very little trouble hitting him.
The nice things that Ali or anyone else said about him doesn't really mean anything.

Defense was not his strong suit by a longshot. His chin, power, and tenacity were what made him great.
His stamina was great, but so was Frazier's. could Frazier go all out for 15 rounds? Yes, we have seen him do it. Actually Marciano only went 15 one time himself. However, there is little evidence that either would have a major problem.

You would have made a great sportswriter, Alp. But the fact is that knowledgable people in boxing said that Rocky had a pretty good defense, and you can see it on the films. He was no Young Griffo or Willie Pep (Rocky got hit), but his defense was not that bad. He rolled with a lot of punches, and blocked punches with efficiency.

Could it be that knowledgeable people are sometimes wrong? Or are they right and it's just an oddity that everyone (that we have seen) that he fought didn't seem to have much trouble hitting him?