BoxRec

hhaehre wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:Here is a good Question for the Ray fans. If they (Joey and Ray) rematched a month later, in the same oppressive heat (maybe hotter even), who would win the fight?

Maxim would win of course. Your flawless logic has showed us that Maxim would beat Ray by way of dehydration even if they fought naked on the North Pole in a blizzard. Just like Dick Ryan would always beat Brian Nielsen and Byrd would always beat Vitali.

Actually, this wasnt a loaded question or anything.

It is a very interesting answer though. Why do you not think that Ray couldnt change his style to adapt to the heat? Could he not fight a little more conservatively and fight on the inside a bit more. If Maxim is such a light hitting fighter, why do you not think that Ray could have stood stationery in a rematch and used his superior speed and power. I just wonder whether you might have hit on a bit of a weakness with Ray. Do you think he is incapable of standing and trading. I have never really thought about this before. I always thought he could do at all, but you do have me thinking. I wonder whether a welterweight Tommy Hearns or a Tommy Ryan might cause serious problems for Ray.

I accept your point about Vitali Byrd (what is the deal with Ryan Neilson, are you talking about the Neilson that fought Tyson?). But there is a difference to quitting through exhaustion and an arm injury. If it was a blizzard on the NOrth Pole, do you think Ray would have not blown out a candle or something. Do you think if it was in the heat of the day, he would have collapsed against any opponent who lasted the distance? I cant see it. Like when Wlad supposedly collapsed against Brewster and Purity, it was the big hits more than lack of conditioning that cost him the fight. Joey is 100 percent right. There was no air conditioner in his corner.

Boilermaker wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV8lTKRr ... re=related

I just rewatched from round 10 (follow the above links).

it is quite clear that from this point at least, Maxim was hitting a lot cleaner and harder than Ray Robinson. Particularly with the left.

So . . . light-hitting Joe Maxim was the only guy to stop Sugar Ray and the heat had nothing to do with it?

Come on. It was a legit stoppage and win for Maxim (after all, it was just as hot for Maxim as it was for Robinson), but to suggest that Maxim was the better man that night is historical revisionism at its worst.

Hang on, I never said that the heat had nothing to do with it. Like the loose ropes in Zaire, it obviously played its role. Just like it was probably the part of the reason that Old Bob Fitzsimmons ever lost to Bill Lang, Or Jack Johnson lost to Willard, or Jeffries lost to Johnson. But at the end of the day, those fighters lost and it wouldnt really have mattered what the weather was like, they lost because their opponents handled the conditions better and started landing enough punches to tire the other guy out.

that is what happened with Ray robinson and he lost. I hardly think, by the way that Joey Maxim was light hitting when compared to Ray Robinson's welterweight opposition, do you?

raylawpc wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV8lTKRr ... re=related

I just rewatched from round 10 (follow the above links).

it is quite clear that from this point at least, Maxim was hitting a lot cleaner and harder than Ray Robinson. Particularly with the left.

So . . . light-hitting Joe Maxim was the only guy to stop Sugar Ray and the heat had nothing to do with it?

Come on. It was a legit stoppage and win for Maxim (after all, it was just as hot for Maxim as it was for Robinson), but to suggest that Maxim was the better man that night is historical revisionism at its worst.

Yes, I think Joey Maxim was light-hittng compared to some of the welterweights and middleweights that Robinson faced during his career.

So Ray, how do you see a rematch going (in the same heat). Do you think Robinson could have handled the heat and changed his style?

Personally, I think that power is overated. Most world class fighters have enough. It is the ability to land that power without getting hit that counts. The prime example I can think of was Jeff Fenech and Calvin Grove. Calvin came into the fight with virtually no power. Fenech fought poorly and was knocked as cold by one punch as i have ever seen anyone. Grove was nowhere near the biggest puncher Fenech fought.

Same with Maxim. He didnt have the one punch KO Power, but he obviously hit hard enough to hurt other light heavys once he found his rang, as he did When Ray slowed down. Otherwise, he wouldnt have stopped Ray, and Ray wouldnt have been forced to keep running. PLus, and it works the other way as well, how does Ray's power stand up to a light heavyweight chin. He landed clean on Joey almost at will. Was he capable of Denting Joey's chin any more than he did? To be honest, if Ray was ever going to win a light heavyweight title, it should have been that fight. He landed enough to knock Maxim into next week (and early enough while he was fresh too). I have to doubt whether Robinson was good enough to beat the very best light heavys going around.


this is not surprising really. He was only a natural welterweigth when at his best. Not many (if any) welterweights really were good enough to beat the very best light heavyweights in the world.

Boilermaker wrote:So Ray, how do you see a rematch going (in the same heat). Do you think Robinson could have handled the heat and changed his style?

Personally, I think that power is overated. Most world class fighters have enough. It is the ability to land that power without getting hit that counts. The prime example I can think of was Jeff Fenech and Calvin Grove. Calvin came into the fight with virtually no power. Fenech fought poorly and was knocked as cold by one punch as i have ever seen anyone. Grove was nowhere near the biggest puncher Fenech fought.

Same with Maxim. He didnt have the one punch KO Power, but he obviously hit hard enough to hurt other light heavys once he found his rang, as he did When Ray slowed down. Otherwise, he wouldnt have stopped Ray, and Ray wouldnt have been forced to keep running. PLus, and it works the other way as well, how does Ray's power stand up to a light heavyweight chin. He landed clean on Joey almost at will. Was he capable of Denting Joey's chin any more than he did? To be honest, if Ray was ever going to win a light heavyweight title, it should have been that fight. He landed enough to knock Maxim into next week (and early enough while he was fresh too). I have to doubt whether Robinson was good enough to beat the very best light heavys going around.


this is not surprising really. He was only a natural welterweigth when at his best. Not many (if any) welterweights really were good enough to beat the very best light heavyweights in the world.

Joey Maxim had a tremendous chin. He was stopped one time in over 100 fights. Robby was way ahead on points when the heat got him. Under normal conditions, there is no way Maxim beats him . . . much less stops him.

Who would win a rematch in the same heat? Don't know and don't care.

We agree on Maxim's Chin.

Do you think it makes a difference to the current Jones vs Robinson discussion as to whether the fight is to be fought in the hot sun or if it is to be fought in cooler conditions?

I dont think Roy could handle constant pressure from the SUGAR.

Robinson could do that all night. SRR knocks Jones the eff out!

Boilermaker wrote:We agree on Maxim's Chin.

Do you think it makes a difference to the current Jones vs Robinson discussion as to whether the fight is to be fought in the hot sun or if it is to be fought in cooler conditions?

Don't care about Jones v. Robby. I got involved in the discussion when the subject of Robby v. Maxim came up. I don't do hypothetical fights between fighters of different eras.

Boilermaker wrote:So Ray, how do you see a rematch going (in the same heat). Do you think Robinson could have handled the heat and changed his style?

Personally, I think that power is overated. Most world class fighters have enough. It is the ability to land that power without getting hit that counts. The prime example I can think of was Jeff Fenech and Calvin Grove. Calvin came into the fight with virtually no power. Fenech fought poorly and was knocked as cold by one punch as i have ever seen anyone. Grove was nowhere near the biggest puncher Fenech fought.

Same with Maxim. He didnt have the one punch KO Power, but he obviously hit hard enough to hurt other light heavys once he found his rang, as he did When Ray slowed down. Otherwise, he wouldnt have stopped Ray, and Ray wouldnt have been forced to keep running. PLus, and it works the other way as well, how does Ray's power stand up to a light heavyweight chin. He landed clean on Joey almost at will. Was he capable of Denting Joey's chin any more than he did? To be honest, if Ray was ever going to win a light heavyweight title, it should have been that fight. He landed enough to knock Maxim into next week (and early enough while he was fresh too). I have to doubt whether Robinson was good enough to beat the very best light heavys going around.


this is not surprising really. He was only a natural welterweigth when at his best. Not many (if any) welterweights really were good enough to beat the very best light heavyweights in the world.

You have created a fictional view of the SRR-Maxim fight that only exist in your head. It was the heat that ko'ed Robinson, not Maxim. It is there on film for all to see. Maxim did not land a ko punch, it's that simple.

What would happen if they fought in the same heat again? Who knows but that kind of dehydration is somewhat of a freak occurrence so the odds are SRR would have outpointed Maxim. If Robinson had been better hydrated before the fight, had popped a few salt pills, taken in more water between rounds etc. it would have ended differently.

Also the fact that Robinson couldn't dent Maxim's chin does in no way translate into him being unable to stop RJJ. Maxim had an all time great chin.

hhaehre wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:So Ray, how do you see a rematch going (in the same heat). Do you think Robinson could have handled the heat and changed his style?

Personally, I think that power is overated. Most world class fighters have enough. It is the ability to land that power without getting hit that counts. The prime example I can think of was Jeff Fenech and Calvin Grove. Calvin came into the fight with virtually no power. Fenech fought poorly and was knocked as cold by one punch as i have ever seen anyone. Grove was nowhere near the biggest puncher Fenech fought.

Same with Maxim. He didnt have the one punch KO Power, but he obviously hit hard enough to hurt other light heavys once he found his rang, as he did When Ray slowed down. Otherwise, he wouldnt have stopped Ray, and Ray wouldnt have been forced to keep running. PLus, and it works the other way as well, how does Ray's power stand up to a light heavyweight chin. He landed clean on Joey almost at will. Was he capable of Denting Joey's chin any more than he did? To be honest, if Ray was ever going to win a light heavyweight title, it should have been that fight. He landed enough to knock Maxim into next week (and early enough while he was fresh too). I have to doubt whether Robinson was good enough to beat the very best light heavys going around.


this is not surprising really. He was only a natural welterweigth when at his best. Not many (if any) welterweights really were good enough to beat the very best light heavyweights in the world.

You have created a fictional view of the SRR-Maxim fight that only exist in your head. It was the heat that ko'ed Robinson, not Maxim. It is there on film for all to see. Maxim did not land a ko punch, it's that simple.

He landed plenty of big punches. Punches are what takes the steam out of a fighter and what cause them to dehydrate and eventually drop from exhaustion. Do you honestly think that those punches Maxim was landing didnt have an effect on Robinson? That is just crazy talk. If Maxim wasnt hurting Ray, do you honestly think that he would kept moving in that sort of heat, when he was as you say clearly so exhausted. The heat played a role, of course it did. The punches landing played a much bigger role.

What would happen if they fought in the same heat again? Who knows but that kind of dehydration is somewhat of a freak occurrence so the odds are SRR would have outpointed Maxim. If Robinson had been better hydrated before the fight, had popped a few salt pills, taken in more water between rounds etc. it would have ended differently.

Either way, Ray was slowing down and Maxim was starting to come on stronger. Under any conditions, the guy doing the running and moving is going to tire quicker than the guy conserving his energy.

Also the fact that Robinson couldn't dent Maxim's chin does in no way translate into him being unable to stop RJJ. Maxim had an all time great chin.

We do agree on this (Maxims chin), as i have stated before. In fact, i havent yet made a choice. My only point is that Robinson level of Competition was not a class above Roy Jones Jr, or Roy Jones' level of competition (at least not the top 2or 3 of them anyway). And i dont think it is fair to say Roy has no chance at all.

What do you say about the speed of the fighters. Do you think that Roy enjoys a speed advantage, or does Ray Robinson have the faster hands? Given Roys chin, this might be extremely important.

hhaehre wrote:You have created a fictional view of the SRR-Maxim fight that only exist in your head.

Boilermaker wrote:Punches are . . . what cause them to dehydrate . . .

And all these years physicians have said it was loss of water and electrolytes that causes one to dehydrate. If only they had known it was caused by punches . . .

raylawpc wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:Punches are . . . what cause them to dehydrate . . .

And all these years physicians have said it was loss of water and electrolytes that causes one to dehydrate. If only they had known it was caused by punches . . .

Are you trying to tell me with a straight face that physicians dont think that running around in the sun because every time you get in close, you are hit with a punch, doesnt cause dehydration?

Do you really think that Ray would have quit, if Maxim wasnt landing any serious punches and hurting him. Ray Robinson had a heart the size of the ox, and proved time after time that he could rise to the challenge against all odds. If Maxim wasnt landing big shots, he would have found away. Unfortunately he couldnt.


It is clear that you guys keep sidestepping direct questions, but since we are talking chins, and Roy was obviously found out at an advanced age against some big hitting light heavyweights, how do you guys rate his chin at middleweight? how do you think Ray will go in a fight where he is the slower fighter (i cant recall off hand this happening before, has it ever). It is easy to go on about how much better Rays record is (of course it is) but the fact is that head to head, Roy poses some serious questions of one of the greatest ever. He is not the greatest fighter (possibly even middleweight) that Roy ever beat, but he does pose challenges in many respects and cannot be totally dismissed in this fight.

This guy is amazing.

Boilermaker wrote: Punches are what takes the steam out of a fighter and what cause them to dehydrate and eventually drop from exhaustion. Do you honestly think that those punches Maxim was landing didnt have an effect on Robinson?

This seems to be going off topic but I cannot understand what you are trying to say about Maxim vs. Robinson?

That fact is Robinson was outweighed by 16lbs. Robinson was way ahead on all scorecards but a combination of the extreme heat and high energy tactics took its toll on him. Robinson was mainly on his toes for the entire fight moving around the ring while Maxim plodded after him, its common sense that using all that energy is going to have more of an effect on Robinson than Maxim, especially in extreme heat conditions.

Of course any punches landed on you by a bigger fighter are going to have an effect, but Robinson didn't loose the fight because Maxim was the better fighter or was outboxing him, he lost it because he was worn out, dehydrated and basically had punched himself to a standstill.

Controversial wrote:

Boilermaker wrote: Punches are what takes the steam out of a fighter and what cause them to dehydrate and eventually drop from exhaustion. Do you honestly think that those punches Maxim was landing didnt have an effect on Robinson?

This seems to be going off topic but I cannot understand what you are trying to say about Maxim vs. Robinson?

That fact is Robinson was outweighed by 16lbs. Robinson was way ahead on all scorecards but a combination of the extreme heat and high energy tactics took its toll on him. Robinson was mainly on his toes for the entire fight moving around the ring while Maxim plodded after him, its common sense that using all that energy is going to have more of an effect on Robinson than Maxim, especially in extreme heat conditions.

Of course any punches landed on you by a bigger fighter are going to have an effect, but Robinson didn't loose the fight because Maxim was the better fighter or was outboxing him, he lost it because he was worn out, dehydrated and basically had punched himself to a standstill.

He was worn out, dehydrated and basically had punched himself to a standstill because of:

The Heat, The punches landed by Maxim, the Chin shown by Maxim and the running style which was forced on him because of the way Maxim fought (and how good maxim was). Maxim deserves full credit for the win and not the heat.

In short, if Maxim was only as good as most middleweight or welterweight contenders, he would ahve been KOd. He wasnt. As the best light heavy in the world he was a step above the competition Ray had faced previously. (like Maxim, Roy was also at one point the best light heavy in the world). If it is such common sense Ray using all that energy is going to have more effect on him, in those conditions, why didnt he use a different style? The answer is because Maxim was too good to allow this. If it wasnt a hot day there is no guarantee that Sugar Ray would have lasted the distance anyway. Joeys tactics were always going to wear him out eventually. How much, quite simply, nobody knows.

Looking at it another way, even if there wasnt extreme heat, there is going to come a time where the mover who could not hurt his energy conserving opponent (as Robinson was) is going to run into the exact same problem. Or to bring it back to what initially brought us to this point, which was Ray's ability to step up against bigger light heavyweight opponents, does anyone really think that there was a welterweight alive who would have withstood Robinson's onslaught like Maxim did. Or for that matter, a middleweight. I firmly believe that Maxim was winning this fight on this night, regardless of anything. I actually think you hit on it with the lack of size. Maxim was simply too big and too good on the night. Would he beat Robinson every time, maybe not (although from what i can tell, in the heat at least it seems consensus). I also think that there are many light heavys who would beat Ray Robinson. Ray has not proved he can beat world class light heavys (like Roy Jones Jr) and to be honest, i dont think he can. Maxim has proved that world class light heavys can beat Ray Robinson.

I think there are quite a few light heavyweights who would beat Ray Robinson. Roy Jones may or may not be one of them. In Toney and Hopkins, Roy might have actually beat 2 of them. Roy also beat John Ruiz, who also gives Ray Robinson one hell of a fight. The point was made by many on here that Roy hasnt beat any competition in the class of Ray Robinson I think there are three guys right there who are in the class of Robinson (not that they necessarilly beat him). I also think that Ray's Middleweight as good as it is is overated by many. This is in no way an easy fight for Robinson on the class factor alone.

Boilermaker wrote: If it is such common sense Ray using all that energy is going to have more effect on him, in those conditions, why didnt he use a different style? The answer is because Maxim was too good to allow this. If it wasnt a hot day there is no guarantee that Sugar Ray would have lasted the distance anyway. Joeys tactics were always going to wear him out eventually. How much, quite simply, nobody knows.

I firmly believe that Maxim was winning this fight on this night, regardless of anything. I actually think you hit on it with the lack of size. Maxim was simply too big and too good on the night. Would he beat Robinson every time, maybe not (although from what i can tell, in the heat at least it seems consensus).

How can you say Maxim was winning the fight? It was plain to see Robinson was way ahead, all the judges had him ahead as well. It wouldn't make sense for Robinson to try and go toe to toe with someone over a stone heavier than him. I'm in no doubt under normal conditions he would have lasted the distance and soundly out pointed Maxim. If you watch the fight its plain to see Robinson was exhausted, thats what beat him. Even the ref Ruby Goldstein had to be changed because he was worn out, doesn't that tell you something? Maxim was a good fighter but I don't think he can really take credit for beating Robinson that night, he was getting his ears boxed off.

Controversial wrote:

Boilermaker wrote: If it is such common sense Ray using all that energy is going to have more effect on him, in those conditions, why didnt he use a different style? The answer is because Maxim was too good to allow this. If it wasnt a hot day there is no guarantee that Sugar Ray would have lasted the distance anyway. Joeys tactics were always going to wear him out eventually. How much, quite simply, nobody knows.

I firmly believe that Maxim was winning this fight on this night, regardless of anything. I actually think you hit on it with the lack of size. Maxim was simply too big and too good on the night. Would he beat Robinson every time, maybe not (although from what i can tell, in the heat at least it seems consensus).

How can you say Maxim was winning the fight? It was plain to see Robinson was way ahead, all the judges had him ahead as well. It wouldn't make sense for Robinson to try and go toe to toe with someone over a stone heavier than him. I'm in no doubt under normal conditions he would have lasted the distance and soundly out pointed Maxim. If you watch the fight its plain to see Robinson was exhausted, thats what beat him. Even the ref Ruby Goldstein had to be changed because he was worn out, doesn't that tell you something? Maxim was a good fighter but I don't think he can really take credit for beating Robinson that night, he was getting his ears boxed off.

It was a bad choice of language there. By winning this fight, i didnt mean that he was winning on points. I meant Robinson was always going to win the fight. ie it was his destiny, he was better on the night and Ray was not going to beat him on that night.

All this focus on the heat, is taking away from an all time great win by Maxim, and it shouldnt. Robinson might have been ahead on points, but it was also plain to see that he had slowed down and maxim was starting to land the better punches in the last rounds of the fight. There certainly is no guarantee that Robinson wins in normal conditions, because the conditions were not normal. Well actually they probably were. It wouldnt have been as hot there as it was for Jim Jeffries against Johnson, Fitzsimmons against lang or Johnson against Willard, or many other fights. The fight was signed for Yankee stadium in the middle of the Day in the middle of summer. Did Ray really expect anything but the conditions he encountered? If the conditions were not so hot, then Joey could have quite easily cut the ring off earlier, landed punches a bit more often and generally adjusted his gameplan. They werent so we will never know one way or the other for sure. We do know that for someone who was boxing his ears off so easy, the result was a tad disappointing.

Incidentally, and this a question for some of you who seem to know the fight quite well, what were the preliminary fights on this day. How did these fighters handle the heat, and did any of these have to make adjustments to their styles?

Boilermaker wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:Punches are . . . what cause them to dehydrate . . .

And all these years physicians have said it was loss of water and electrolytes that causes one to dehydrate. If only they had known it was caused by punches . . .

Are you trying to tell me with a straight face that physicians dont think that running around in the sun because every time you get in close, you are hit with a punch, doesnt cause dehydration?

Do you really think that Ray would have quit, if Maxim wasnt landing any serious punches and hurting him. Ray Robinson had a heart the size of the ox, and proved time after time that he could rise to the challenge against all odds. If Maxim wasnt landing big shots, he would have found away. Unfortunately he couldnt.


It is clear that you guys keep sidestepping direct questions, but since we are talking chins, and Roy was obviously found out at an advanced age against some big hitting light heavyweights, how do you guys rate his chin at middleweight? how do you think Ray will go in a fight where he is the slower fighter (i cant recall off hand this happening before, has it ever). It is easy to go on about how much better Rays record is (of course it is) but the fact is that head to head, Roy poses some serious questions of one of the greatest ever. He is not the greatest fighter (possibly even middleweight) that Roy ever beat, but he does pose challenges in many respects and cannot be totally dismissed in this fight.

I am saying a punch in the nose does not cause dehydration.

Boilermaker wrote:

Controversial wrote:

Boilermaker wrote: If it is such common sense Ray using all that energy is going to have more effect on him, in those conditions, why didnt he use a different style? The answer is because Maxim was too good to allow this. If it wasnt a hot day there is no guarantee that Sugar Ray would have lasted the distance anyway. Joeys tactics were always going to wear him out eventually. How much, quite simply, nobody knows.

I firmly believe that Maxim was winning this fight on this night, regardless of anything. I actually think you hit on it with the lack of size. Maxim was simply too big and too good on the night. Would he beat Robinson every time, maybe not (although from what i can tell, in the heat at least it seems consensus).

How can you say Maxim was winning the fight? It was plain to see Robinson was way ahead, all the judges had him ahead as well. It wouldn't make sense for Robinson to try and go toe to toe with someone over a stone heavier than him. I'm in no doubt under normal conditions he would have lasted the distance and soundly out pointed Maxim. If you watch the fight its plain to see Robinson was exhausted, thats what beat him. Even the ref Ruby Goldstein had to be changed because he was worn out, doesn't that tell you something? Maxim was a good fighter but I don't think he can really take credit for beating Robinson that night, he was getting his ears boxed off.

It was a bad choice of language there. By winning this fight, i didnt mean that he was winning on points. I meant Robinson was always going to win the fight. ie it was his destiny, he was better on the night and Ray was not going to beat him on that night.

All this focus on the heat, is taking away from an all time great win by Maxim, and it shouldnt. Robinson might have been ahead on points, but it was also plain to see that he had slowed down and maxim was starting to land the better punches in the last rounds of the fight. There certainly is no guarantee that Robinson wins in normal conditions, because the conditions were not normal. Well actually they probably were. It wouldnt have been as hot there as it was for Jim Jeffries against Johnson, Fitzsimmons against lang or Johnson against Willard, or many other fights. The fight was signed for Yankee stadium in the middle of the Day in the middle of summer. Did Ray really expect anything but the conditions he encountered? If the conditions were not so hot, then Joey could have quite easily cut the ring off earlier, landed punches a bit more often and generally adjusted his gameplan. They werent so we will never know one way or the other for sure. We do know that for someone who was boxing his ears off so easy, the result was a tad disappointing.

Incidentally, and this a question for some of you who seem to know the fight quite well, what were the preliminary fights on this day. How did these fighters handle the heat, and did any of these have to make adjustments to their styles?

No. 1: As I recall, none of the prelims went over six rounds, so that's not really relevant.

No. 2: Nobody is denying that it was a win for Maxim. He had to fight in the same conditions, and he overcame. I applaud him for that. There isn't, and shouldn't be, an asterisk, next to the result on his record. Okay? Happy now? But to suggest that Maxim would have won without the heat is historical revisionism. At best, he won three rounds that night.

No. 3: Did you post on the board at one time under the name "BroughtonRulesRefuge"?

No. 1: As I recall, none of the prelims went over six rounds, so that's not really relevant.

Okay, fair enough. It was a question, out of interest nothing more or less. Just wondering if other fighters slowed significantly.

No. 2: Nobody is denying that it was a win for Maxim. He had to fight in the same conditions, and he overcame. I applaud him for that. There isn't, and shouldn't be, an asterisk, next to the result on his record. Okay? Happy now?

yes

But to suggest that Maxim would have won without the heat is historical revisionism. At best, he won three rounds that night.

I guess what i am saying is could rather than would.

The three rounds you talk about is going to be the last three rounds though isnt it. My point is under any conditions the runner is going to be more suceptible to slowing down in the later rounds, if the stationery fighter stands his ground, lands some good punches and most importantly is not hurt by the runner (too bad).

No. 3: Did you post on the board at one time under the name "BroughtonRulesRefuge"?

No, I never posted regularly on this board before and not over the years. And i have only really read it sporadically over the years as a lurker usually 3 or 4 months when things are slow at other places or i am desperately looking for an excuse to avoid working. I dont really know of any of the posters i have seen post on this board over the last couple of weeks except for Seamus who posts over at ESB and of course Klompton, if he ever comes back to answer the challenge of defending Harry Grebs honour against Fitzsimmons in the battle of Australia's best ever vs USA's best ever.

What happen.

raylawpc wrote: I am saying a punch in the nose does not cause dehydration.

Maybe Not directly. And maybe i am talking exhaustion more than dehydration.

But, If we find a two equally matched Marathon runners and punch one of them on the nose several times, before the race, I dare say that this runner is going to finish behind the other one because he will be more tired and fatigued and eventually he will dehydrate before the other. Presumably this is because it is harder work for him to move his muscles due to the pain and the body reacting to fix the sore nose from the punch. If you couple this with the fact that because we keep punching him on the nose, he is going to have to run around the longer way to ensure that we dont keep punching him on the nose, by the time he ends the race he is going to be much more exhausted and dehydrated. This is essentially what happened in the robinson Maxim fight and really I cant see any argument otherwise.

And as for the additional weight argument of it favouring Maxim, i dont necessarilly agree either. Most heavyweights train down in weight because it gives them condition (well they try to anyway). The lighter David Tua for example would do much better in a fight than the heavy David Tua because of condition and not having to carry so much weight. This is magnified if the conditions are extreme heat, because the heavy version has to work so much harder. This is true of every and any fighter.

The reason that the heat favoured Maxim was because of styles rather than weight. If Robinson had gone in 20 lbs heavier than Robinson and still danced around on the outside, he would have run nto the same problems, probably worse. That is my point. If Maxim came in as a welterweight and fought the same fight, and Robinson still ran, he still would have worn out (assuming Maxim landed the same amount and hardness of punches). In fact, it would be easier for Maxim if he had to carry less weight around. Weight itself is a disadvantage rather than an advantage (except in the course of leaning on the other). It is the fact that the heavier man can usually hit harder and take a better punch (in theory). And obviously they usually have reach advantages.

Boilermaker wrote: By winning this fight, i didnt mean that he was winning on points. I meant Robinson was always going to win the fight. ie it was his destiny, he was better on the night and Ray was not going to beat him on that night.

All this focus on the heat, is taking away from an all time great win by Maxim, and it shouldnt. Robinson might have been ahead on points, but it was also plain to see that he had slowed down and maxim was starting to land the better punches in the last rounds of the fight. There certainly is no guarantee that Robinson wins in normal conditions, because the conditions were not normal. Well actually they probably were.

This isn't meant to be a rude question but is English your first language as your replies don't really make any sense, especially your first sentence?

No one is denying Maxim won, that point you seem to miss is the heat had more of an effect on Robinson losing than Maxim did. It was the only time in 200 fights SRR had failed to hear the final bell and even then he quit in the corner because he was exhausted, its not like Maxim was battering him around the ring. The ref had to be replaced, he couldn't take the heat and people in the crowd were being stretchered out for the same reason. The only difference is Maxim was in better condition, mainly because he wasn't really using much energy up, he was just plodding around the ring.

Crease wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:The great Roy Jones, Jr. was a magnificent fighter who had tremendous skills and reflexes. But, how could he beat a hard-punching and fast middleweight like the great original Sugar Ray? Robinson gets Jones' chin and it is all over.

Robinsons gets anyones chin and it could well be all over.

Not necessarily true. Some guys he could not stop.

Boilermaker wrote:

duranfan wrote:So what are you trying to say? The heat made no difference to the man that was 19lbs lighter?

One round to go Ray is up on all the cards, to the point where Maxim can only win be KO, and he quits because Maxim is getting the better of the fight?

I dont know very much about biology but I would have thought that in severe heat the lighter man would suffer more from dehydration that the heavier one.

No, I think we can safely assume the heat, and only the heat forced Ray Robinson to collapse in that fight, and the margin he was winning by would suggest Maxim had little or nothing to do with it.

This post is addressed to Boilermaker.

Why would the lighter man suffer more from dehydration?

It is much harder for the heavier man because they have to drag their whole weight around which is much harder.

Heat dissipation depends on body surface area. A tall and skinny person has a larger surface-to-volume ratio, can dissipate heat more easily, and can tolerate higher temperatures than a more rounded body shape.

Now although no one would claim that SRR was a rounded body shaped guy. I think at 6' 1" and 173 we can safely say that Maxim was a fairly tall skinny guy.

I go with the majority here. It was the heat, and only the heat that did for SRR, not Joey Maxim. Good luck to him for the win, but to say he forced the stoppage when it is patently obvious it was the heat is quite frankly ridiculous.

Another thing you continually sidestep is the fact that Ruby Golstein was replaced due to him collapsing in the 10th. Now Goldstein was not some fat over 60 year old ref. He was 45 and a small former Welter who had 55 fights, the last of which was 15 years prior to the SRR / Maxim fight, meaning in that time he had reached a level of reffing that allowed him to officiate in a fight of that magnitude.

Are you going to tell us that he was " running around the ring expending energy " in a fight that even you say there was no clinching, or fouling. Rather a case of SRR dancing in and out with Maxim standing center ring and countering when able. So what the hell knackered Goldstein then with little or nothing to do?