Hatton & Calzaghe --- Who Ranks Higher Historically?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Alp uses aging as a convenience in his arguments. I've read him gush about Conney smashing Norton & Lyle. Tszyu was coming off a demolition job of Mitchell in one of the better performances of his career. While I agree that Kostya is overrated, not nearly as much as Kessler is. Solid fighter, nothing more.

[thunderfromdownunder]

C Hatton always had a vulnerability about him that seemed to go away against Tszyu then steadily re-emerge in his subsequent fights.

very well put. I dont really rate hatton to much. I mean he was a tough and likeable guy and seemed willing to fight anybody but was pretty much exposed as being ordinary(even in some of the fights he won) calzaghe clearly for me

[Ambling Alp]

Alp uses aging as a convenience in his arguments. I've read him gush about Conney smashing Norton & Lyle. Tszyu was coming off a demolition job of Mitchell in one of the better performances of his career. While I agree that Kostya is overrated, not nearly as much as Kessler is. Solid fighter, nothing more.

That is total nonsense about Cooney and Norton and Lyle.
I have said many times that they were way over the hill when Cooney fought them.

Mitchell was almost as old Tsyzu. It was a case of one old fighter beating another old fighter. Doesn't mean a lot. Tszyu was 35 when he fought Hatton.

I use age/wear and tear/inactivity as a point when it deserved to be mentioned. Like now.

[Ambling Alp]

I think Alp’s point is that he feels the Kessler Joe fought was better than the versions of Castillo and Tszyu that Hatton fought. That’s what you need to agree or disagree with.

That has been mine (and I believe others point.)
Tszyu was past his best, and Castillo was way past his best when Hatton fought them. Kessler at the time that Calzaghe beat him, was a much better than either of them when they fought Hatton.
Never said that Lacy and Brewer were better than Tszyu. I was comparing them to anyone else Hatton beat.

It's not just the name of the opponent that you fight that is important. When you fight him is very important.

[dempseyfire]

Kessler was a really good fighter; certainly better than anyone that Hatton ever beat.
An old Hopkins was as well.
Even guys like Lacy, Brewer etc, were close the best that Hatton beat.

Sure it would have been nice if Calzaghe would have fought say Hopkins when he was younger or Jones or Toney. however, was Kessler really avoiding them? I think if anything, it was the other way around. They had little to gain and something to lose by fighting him. They were far bigger names than Calzaghe.

If you are going to compare Hatton to a great fighter , then yes there is shame in getting beat badly (Twice). It is a big deal that he could was not anywhere near Maywether and Pacmans league. That mean he can't be a great fighter if he is that far below them.
Yes it is strong evidence against Hatton that he almost lost to Collazo. Yes Collazo was a welterweight. Was a that good? No. A way past it Mosley beat Collazo easily.

If Hartton beat better competition, how come we never hear about them?

All you ever hear is the "big" win over a past it Kosta Tysu (an overrated fighter even at his best)? Why don't we here about all of those other great wins?

1. Kessler was a better fighter than Tszyu? Give me a break. That's hilarious.

2. Lacy & Brewer were near to Tszyu's level? Even funnier.

3. You keep saying Hatton isn't a great fighter. Who is claiming otherwise? Some of us just feel Calzaghe didn't do anymore with his career, even if he was a better boxer.

4. It is easy to say Calzaghe didn't get comprehensively beaten when he didn't face ANYONE (Hopkins included) in the same class as prime versions of Pacquiao or Mayweather. The, '0' looks great when you avoid addressing the fact he didn't get near anyone like those guys.

All I keep hearing is Tszyu, Tsyzu, Tszyu . . Comparing resumes, most would put Joe's best W (Bernard) over Ricky's best (Kotsya). While Kotysa is probably better than any other Calzaghe win, look at the OTHER names after Tszyu on his record . . .any better than Kessler? Hell, any better than a past-prime Eubank? Castillo was beyond shot when Hatton fought him, he'd just gotten a gift in most's eyes to the spirited but average Herman Ngoudjo. After Castillo you have Maglignaggi, a very good boxer who simply lacks the power to beat any A-level fighters, and then who . . Urango? Maussa? His resume takes a big leap downward after the Tszyu win, whereas Calzaghe's Ws over Hopkins, Eubank, Kessler, Lacy, Mitchell, and Jones Jr put together are definitely a stronger group.

[Goodnight, Irene]

That Eubank, that Jones, & ANY Lacy are resume-builders? Please.

Malignaggi is a better win at that time than Jones was.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think Alp’s point is that he feels the Kessler Joe fought was better than the versions of Castillo and Tszyu that Hatton fought. That’s what you need to agree or disagree with.

That has been mine (and I believe others point.)
Tszyu was past his best, and Castillo was way past his best when Hatton fought them. Kessler at the time that Calzaghe beat him, was a much better than either of them when they fought Hatton.
Never said that Lacy and Brewer were better than Tszyu. I was comparing them to anyone else Hatton beat.

It's not just the name of the opponent that you fight that is important. When you fight him is very important.

Guess what else Tszyu was when Hatton beat him? A HUGE --- HUGE --- favourite to win the fight in most observers' eyes. I do agree Tszyu was past his best, but as Saad adequately points out, Tszyu only became, "shot," to those contending that (incorrect) point after the fight. Beforehand, not many at all even gave Hatton a serious chance. Almost no one gave him favouritism.

"Kessler was much better than either of them when they fought Hatton," --- that may be arguable for Castillo, it's ridiculous for Tszyu. There is no way Kessler was better than ANY Tszyu, but doubly so when you say he was MUCH better. He simply wasn't.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Tyszu retired after Hatton, Kessler went on to become world champion twice more, and having his best career win to date.

You can argue who was better when, but it doesn't matter. Calzaghe has a career of better wins that Hatton does on his resume, arguing over one fighter is pointless.

There is no argument. Tszyu at any time is on another level from Kessler.

Tszyu was actually one of the better aged fighters of his generation (along with Lewis & the incomparable Hopkins).

[Goodnight, Irene]

Kessler went on to become world champion twice more? Please tell us all who he fought for those distinctions.

[Goodnight, Irene]

In addition to losing the title to Andre Ward --- but that only enhances him, because he's then a, "twice over world champ."

Puhlease.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Disagree with that as well. Better than Hatton's #2 opponent, yeah. Not by much, though.

Kessler is now joining Calzaghe in getting heavily over-estimated here.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Kessler became a, "two-time champion," by winning Calzaghe's vacant belt (after Calzaghe flat-dominated him the entire second half of their fight) against a completely non-descript rival, than lost the belt to Andre Ward, before re-claiming it against the admittedly not-bad Carl Froch.

To use the above compared with Tszyu retiring after Hatton is disingenuous, to say the least.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Well instead of simply disagreeing, offer an opinion. Who is Hatton's second best win? Mallignaggi? Urango? Collazo? Maussa? Castillo? Who of those is as good as Kessler? A prime Castillo I would put above Kessler, but you can't even compare the two when we're talking about the shadow Hatton fought.

And no-one is over estimating him here. He has done what he has done in his career, and it is better than what a large majority of Hatton's victims have done.

Your group keep telling us Castillo was spent --- I've never argued otherwise. Not once. I agree completely. But several people here have touted the win over Jones. Castillo should count at that rate. Both Calzaghe & Hatton totally decimated guys who were already ruined. They did what they had to, but neither needs a lot of credit. Probably Malignaggi is his next best win, which isn't far short of Kessler, as opposition goes.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Is it bollocks or is it something? It can't be both.

[Goodnight, Irene]

No, Im going to ask you a completely sincere question to clarify your own self-contradiction.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Okay, then its something to you. "Bollocks," to me says you not only see it as diminished, but worthless.

[Goodnight, Irene]

God, for the days of one champ per division... :(

[LeedsLad]

Why are Calzaghe fans trying to use the Jones win to justify him being ahead of Hatton?

He was absolutely gash by the time they fought, what did he actually do afterwards other than be demolished inside a round by Danny Green? Since he got a gift off Tarver in their first fight his record was full of KO losses and wins over journeymen.

I'd have Calzaghe ahead based on the wins over Hopkins and Kessler, plus greater longevity..... but using Jones is just ridiculous.

It's a bit like the Lewis/Tyson argument when Lewis fans say ''Lewis beat Tyson'' as a reason for ranking him higher.

[observer1]

Like i mentioned earlier, it just goes to show how much of a joke Boxing is nowadays. Especially British Boxing.

It's motivated by hype and media speculation, but no substance. British promoters can promote even the most average of journeymen opponents into something their not...

Which is why Hatton fans and Calzaghe fans can't argue with anything, since large portions of their career's were manufactured and engineered as something they never were.

Khan is already on Par, if not beaten the "achievements" of Joe and Hatton and he is only 24? Simply because he left FrWarren early rather than sit on a meaningless title facing mediocre opposition

[Ambling Alp]

I think Alp’s point is that he feels the Kessler Joe fought was better than the versions of Castillo and Tszyu that Hatton fought. That’s what you need to agree or disagree with.

That has been mine (and I believe others point.)
Tszyu was past his best, and Castillo was way past his best when Hatton fought them. Kessler at the time that Calzaghe beat him, was a much better than either of them when they fought Hatton.
Never said that Lacy and Brewer were better than Tszyu. I was comparing them to anyone else Hatton beat.

It's not just the name of the opponent that you fight that is important. When you fight him is very important.

Guess what else Tszyu was when Hatton beat him? A HUGE --- HUGE --- favourite to win the fight in most observers' eyes. I do agree Tszyu was past his best, but as Saad adequately points out, Tszyu only became, "shot," to those contending that (incorrect) point after the fight. Beforehand, not many at all even gave Hatton a serious chance. Almost no one gave him favouritism.

"Kessler was much better than either of them when they fought Hatton," --- that may be arguable for Castillo, it's ridiculous for Tszyu. There is no way Kessler was better than ANY Tszyu, but doubly so when you say he was MUCH better. He simply wasn't.

So what if the betting odds had Hatton the underdog. Doesn't mean anything except that the oddsmakers didn't think betting public thought Hatton would win. Do we really ned to go back in history and find odds that were way off the mark? Jeffries w2as the favorite over Johnson. Does that mean Jeffries was not washed up when they fought?

Some people did think that Tyszu was getting older and would not be a top fighter for much longer. I think Kessler was much better than the Tszyu that Hatton fought. How much is arguable; but Kessler was better. He simply was.

Kessler is no legend. But I watch him and think, that guy is a pretty good fighter.
I watch Hatton and think why do some people think he was so good? He doesn't look impressive on film. All I hear is how he beat a 35 year old, his losses don't mean much and excuses for his poor performance and the almost loss to to the mediocre Collazo.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Agreed on the betting odds being insignificant. Totally disagree that Kessler is better than any Tszyu. Kostya was in good form for that fight and Kessler was injured against Calzaghe. I rate Joe over Ricky too, but no way in hell Mikkell was better than Tszyu, only if it's convenient.

[Ambling Alp]

Of course it's all a matter of opinion, but certainly looked to me Kessler performed much better against Calzaghe than Kosta did against Hatton.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I specifically said, "in most observers' eyes," because I WASNT talking odds, I was talking seasoned fans and expert opinion. And the verdict teetered on unanimous --- Tszyu would win. That was because, though no longer 100%, Tszyu was still an excellent boxer, and as I said, one of the best aged fighters of his generation (Tszyu himself said, pre-Hatton, he was better at 35 than 25, which is true watching him).

You criticise Hatton for besting a past-it 35-year-old, yet the highlight of Calzaghe's career is a victory over a past-it 43-year-old? The fact Hopkins is a greater boxer than Tszyu is evened out by the near-decade advantage in age Tszyu had. You criticise Hatton for an almost-loss to Collazo, but not a peep about Calzaghe's almost-loss to Reid? The only difference there is Collazo was better than Reid.

I dont know, Alp. These seem like pretty clear double-standards.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Of course it's all a matter of opinion, but certainly looked to me Kessler performed much better against Calzaghe than Kosta did against Hatton.

The cards dont support that. Tszyu was only about two points down against Hatton, maybe one, at the time it ended and he fought on even terms throughout most of that fight.

In contrast, Kessler won a maximum of four rounds and was borderline shut out the entire second-half of the bout.

[dempseyfire]

You criticise Hatton for besting a past-it 35-year-old, yet the highlight of Calzaghe's career is a victory over a past-it 43-year-old? The fact Hopkins is a greater boxer than Tszyu is evened out by the near-decade advantage in age .

Are you kidding? That logic makes no sense. If Tszyu had fought into his 40s he'd be losing to journeyman on Bob Arum cards in Mexico. Hopkins is simply far ahead of Tszyu as a fighter in any ranking.

So equate a shot Castillo to a shot Jones Jr. Fine. Kessler, Lacy, Eubank and Mitchell are still better than Mag, Maussa and Urango. Those lists aren't even close . . .