Most complete Heavyweight

[Thunder and Lightning]

Physically i think Tyson was complete he had power, speed, technique and his chin wasn't bad, Bruno had a good punch and got in a few good ones but Tyson took it, Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis were the only ones who i think realy KOed him and they had to work for it and landed alot of punches and dominated the fights for along time before the stoppage, Mcbride and Williams faced an old Tyson who quit after two rounds.

So physically complete but mentally laking.

[Knucklez]

This is no contest it is without doubt Ali. Speed , heart , chin , charisma and brilliant ring smarts allows Ali to defeat any heavy in history of the sport on his best day

He couldn't beat Joe Frazier on Joe's best day. No doubt about that.

Ali was probably the BEST heavyweight but not the most COMPLETE, which is what this thread is getting at.

Critics of Ali would point out that he rarely attacked the body, used the uppercut too infrequently, had a slappy left hook and some would even say his right cross wasn't as straight as it should have been. He was also vulnerable to the left hook throughout his career.

Luckily for Ali, his attributes outweighed his weaknesses so he able, on most occasions, to triumph in spite of these flaws. He was the best, but not the most complete.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

This is no contest it is without doubt Ali. Speed , heart , chin , charisma and brilliant ring smarts allows Ali to defeat any heavy in history of the sport on his best day

He couldn't beat Joe Frazier on Joe's best day. No doubt about that.

Ali was probably the BEST heavyweight but not the most COMPLETE, which is what this thread is getting at.

Critics of Ali would point out that he rarely attacked the body, used the uppercut too infrequently, had a slappy left hook and some would even say his right cross wasn't as straight as it should have been. He was also vulnerable to the left hook throughout his career.

Luckily for Ali, his attributes outweighed his weaknesses so he able, on most occasions, to triumph in spite of these flaws. He was the best, but not the most complete.

I think Louis was the best and the most complete.

[BoxBuzz]

Joe louis seemed to have everything in place

Joe Louis had very slow foot movement it seems. He would have big problems wit guys like Foreman and Liston if a former lightweight could have him on verge of getting knocked out. Joe would have an absolute nightmare vs Ali who just to quick. The level of Joe Louis competiors is really weak in comparisons to other greats.

What former lightweight had the great Louis on the verge of a knockout?

Was Two Ton Toney once known as "Quarter Ton Toney?"

(I'm Assuming he worked his way up the ladder).

[Badhusker]

Gene Tunney

65-1, almost 50 KO's. Fought most of his career at light heavy, and his last 10 or 11 at heavy. Avenged his only loss (to Harry Greb) multiple times. He possessed footwork and boxing skills like no other during his time, and was very intelligent. 6'1 1/2" 76" reach.

If Billy Conn gave Louis trouble, Tunney would have KO'd him, or beat easily (imo)

[dempseyfire]

Gene Tunney

65-1, almost 50 KO's. Fought most of his career at light heavy, and his last 10 or 11 at heavy. Avenged his only loss (to Harry Greb) multiple times. He possessed footwork and boxing skills like no other during his time, and was very intelligent. 6'1 1/2" 76" reach.

If Billy Conn gave Louis trouble, Tunney would have KO'd him, or beat easily (imo)

Those analogies never work. One could just flip it and say "if a washed up Dempsey nearly KO'd Tunney, then Louis would annihiliate him."

[SaadOffTheDeck]

One could even say if a prime Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey was the Heavyweight champion, Gene would have stayed at Light Heavy. He was a complete fighter though, no disputing that.

[hhaehre]

Gene Tunney
If Billy Conn gave Louis trouble, Tunney would have KO'd him, or beat easily (imo)

Who ever beat Louis easily? Even completely shot Louis was able to inflict damage, both Charles and Marciano looked like they had been in a fight.

[Boilermaker]

Those last two posts hit on on important points with Tunney. Firstly, Dempsey was prime with Tunney, and Tunney did the smart thing. He waited until his prime past over. If Louis was also prime, it is likely that Tunney would have also waited. Does this mean that the first signs of Louis slipping a little would have been around about when the Conn fight occurred, or perhaps even the Walcott fight. One of Gene's strengths is that he is careful enough to find his opponent when his opponent is not on their best day. A slipping Joe Louis vs a prime and Focused Tunney who would not lose focus might actually be a very different fight and more difficult (for joe) than people think.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Who would be surprised by Tunney giving Louis a tough fight? I'm certain he would. You indicated that Louis couldn't give Tunney a tough fight.

[NazNaci1]

I tend to agree with the general consensus here. Liston and / or Joe Louie would have a great shout at being labelled the 'most complete'. I do also concur that the Liston who won the title was past his prime, slower and more reliant on intimidation and bombing guys out, sacrificing some finesse.

Although, I would say Tyson, specifically circa 86-88, was not too far off either. He had all the attributes we associate with him, speed, power but for me, his defence, head movement, jab, combinations and chin could stand with anyone in the history of the division. He lacked genuine inside fighting skills of a Louis, Marciano or Dempsey, did not work the body often (his right hook, right uppercut combo being an exception) and was fragile mentally, though I would not question his heart.

[marcianofan]

Louis might be the greatest ever, but most complete? Come on! Have you seen him fight? He was a shuffling plodder. Couldn't fight a boxing-moving style to save his life. Lots of power, but not exceptional handspeed. Probably no better than an above average chin. You guys that are picking Louis are like the baseball writers that pick the guy with the most home runs for the gold glove.

And Liston? Even more ridiculous. Same flaws as Louis, only they were about three times as severe. Who's next? Primo Carnera?

To jump in on the Jeffries debate- I have heard pretty universally that he was a lumbering brutish type of fighter, but I saw a short film of him training, and he looks very fluid and quick- almost Ali-like to be honest. But then again that film would have been taken with a cranked camera which could vary the film speed quite a bit, so it could be that what I was watching amounted to Jeffries on fast-forward.

Ali is up there. He didn't have elite power, but he could crack enough to beat the bejabbers out of an admittedly old Archie Moore, make Liston quit before knocking him out in the second fight (allegedly), brutalize Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell and stop the former, destroy Cleveland Williams and Zora Foley, drop Bonavena 3 times in a single round, and the list keeps going. His foot speed, hand speed, ring generalship, and chin were all as good as or better than anyone in history. It's hard to compare his stamina to guys that used to go well over 20 rounds sometimes, but certainly his stamina is elite within the modern era, as well.

Larry Holmes had a similar skill set, but I think his power deficit was a lot more pronounced than Ali's, and I think Ali probably edges him out in most of the other areas as well.

I honestly have to put Wlad in the mix. Obviously his chin is average at best, but in his prime he makes it irrelevant the way he fights. And he gets knockouts seemingly any time he feels like it. He fights best when boxing and going backward, but can fight effectively going forward too. He isn't exactly Aliesque in terms of his movement, but he moves effectively. I'm not sure we've ever seen him tire, at least in his prime, and of course he dwarfs the other guys you could mention here in terms of size. Vitali could be mentioned, but he's more injury prone and not as athletic or fluid.

I kinda think Dempsey should get more mention, too. Sure, he looked one dimensional at best against Tunney, but I have a personal opinion that the Dempsey that destroyed Willard would have caught up with Tunney a lot more. But he didn't really have a well-rounded style, I guess.

I guess it you held a gun to my head on this, I'd say Ali #1 and Wlad #2. I do agree that Holyfield is high on the list, too, though.

[hhaehre]

Louis might be the greatest ever, but most complete? Come on! Have you seen him fight? He was a shuffling plodder. Couldn't fight a boxing-moving style to save his life. Lots of power, but not exceptional handspeed. Probably no better than an above average chin.

The above assessment of Joe Louis has got to be one of the most inane postings at Boxrec ever and that really takes some doing. "No exceptional handspeed", has that ever been said of Louis before?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Louis might be the greatest ever, but most complete? Come on! Have you seen him fight? He was a shuffling plodder. Couldn't fight a boxing-moving style to save his life. Lots of power, but not exceptional handspeed. Probably no better than an above average chin. You guys that are picking Louis are like the baseball writers that pick the guy with the most home runs for the gold glove.

And Liston? Even more ridiculous. Same flaws as Louis, only they were about three times as severe. Who's next? Primo Carnera?

To jump in on the Jeffries debate- I have heard pretty universally that he was a lumbering brutish type of fighter, but I saw a short film of him training, and he looks very fluid and quick- almost Ali-like to be honest. But then again that film would have been taken with a cranked camera which could vary the film speed quite a bit, so it could be that what I was watching amounted to Jeffries on fast-forward.

Ali is up there. He didn't have elite power, but he could crack enough to beat the bejabbers out of an admittedly old Archie Moore, make Liston quit before knocking him out in the second fight (allegedly), brutalize Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell and stop the former, destroy Cleveland Williams and Zora Foley, drop Bonavena 3 times in a single round, and the list keeps going. His foot speed, hand speed, ring generalship, and chin were all as good as or better than anyone in history. It's hard to compare his stamina to guys that used to go well over 20 rounds sometimes, but certainly his stamina is elite within the modern era, as well.

Larry Holmes had a similar skill set, but I think his power deficit was a lot more pronounced than Ali's, and I think Ali probably edges him out in most of the other areas as well.

I honestly have to put Wlad in the mix. Obviously his chin is average at best, but in his prime he makes it irrelevant the way he fights. And he gets knockouts seemingly any time he feels like it. He fights best when boxing and going backward, but can fight effectively going forward too. He isn't exactly Aliesque in terms of his movement, but he moves effectively. I'm not sure we've ever seen him tire, at least in his prime, and of course he dwarfs the other guys you could mention here in terms of size. Vitali could be mentioned, but he's more injury prone and not as athletic or fluid.

I kinda think Dempsey should get more mention, too. Sure, he looked one dimensional at best against Tunney, but I have a personal opinion that the Dempsey that destroyed Willard would have caught up with Tunney a lot more. But he didn't really have a well-rounded style, I guess.

I guess it you held a gun to my head on this, I'd say Ali #1 and Wlad #2. I do agree that Holyfield is high on the list, too, though.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I thought hed outdone himself when he accused Louis of having unexceptional handspeed, but then he topped it by calling Louis nominators crazy en route to mentioning Klitschko D

[marcianofan]

Louis might be the greatest ever, but most complete? Come on! Have you seen him fight? He was a shuffling plodder. Couldn't fight a boxing-moving style to save his life. Lots of power, but not exceptional handspeed. Probably no better than an above average chin.

The above assessment of Joe Louis has got to be one of the most inane postings at Boxrec ever and that really takes some doing. "No exceptional handspeed", has that ever been said of Louis before?

Look at the video. I'm not saying he didn't have good handspeed, especially for a heavyweight his size, but when I'm talking exceptional I'm talking guys like Ezzard Charles and Muhammad Ali. Watching the Jim Braddock fight, it's clear to me that it's Joe's accuracy, power, timing, and positioning that separates him from Braddock, not his handspeed. Braddock's punches were getting there just as fast as Joe's. And with Ezzard Charles, there were times when Joe would throw a jab at the same time as Charles did, and Charles would have already hit Joe with the jab and a follow-up right hand before Joe even got the jab pulled back. I know that is not nearly Joe at his best, but the difference is stark. And even during his prime, Billy Conn proved WAY faster than Joe, as well. And I know I'm comparing him to smaller guys here, and that may or may not be fair in this context. But Muhammad Ali was the same size as Louis- maybe a little bigger- and do you guys really think there's a comparison there? Anyway- that's my exceptionally long defense of a minor point.

Again, Louis is at least in a toss-up for greatest heavyweight ever, to me. But let me compare him with Wlad for completeness, since someone thought that was a crazy comparison:

Power: Relative to competition you'd have to say Louis. Considering that Wlad doesn't fight a seek and destroy style like Louis and the fact that Wlad is fighting bigger guys, I am not too convinced that Wlad doesn't have more actual empirical power in his punches, though. Like if you put the same opponent in from of each guy and each guy landed his best punch, I'd be hard-pressed to assume that a guy 30 pounds or more lighter who has 5 inches less height and leverage to draw on is going to do more damage. But I'll give Louis credit and say that given his style and era, he applied his power more significantly than does Wlad.

Handspeed: Louis. No argument here.

Chin: Neither guy had an all-time great chin or anything close, in my opinion. That's obviously the closest thing Wlad has to an achilles heel so I'm tempted to say this is a win for Louis, but at the same time it's a little hard for me to picture Max Schmeling knocking out Wlad given the size differential. I'm calling this one a wash.

Conditioning: I don't think this is/was a problem for either guy in their respective primes. Even.

Defense: Wlad at this point can barely be touched by anyone out there. Not even close here.

Movement/Foot speed: Wlad moves a lot more and better than Joe.

Timing/Accuracy: Joe's most impressive quality to me was his ability to time his opponent and land a big shot right on the button. Wlad barely needs timing because he just batters his helpless opponents from a safe distance, but his accuracy is pretty impressive as well. Nowhere near Joe's, though.

Ring Generalship: Both guys excel at this in different ways. Joe shuffled forward to apply smart pressure and get himself in position to expose and plug any holes in the opponent's defense, and to keep them on the defensive. Wlad steps back to lure his opponents into his ideal range and then punishes them for it. I lean toward Wlad on this one, because to me his tactics in this area render him almost unbeatable, whereas Joe still has some vulnerability to a fighter that can match his skill in other areas- particularly someone who could box and move or a fighter with superior handspeed like Conn or Charles.

Heart: I'll give this to Louis based on his comeback against Conn alone.

So I mean maybe I should have gone with Louis, but each guy has his clear strengths and weaknesses compared to his counterpart, and there's a lot of room for interpretation in some categories, so I don't think it's crazy to call Wlad more complete, either.

[marcianofan]

Prime vs Prime, Vitali is more complete than Wlad.

Entertainment-wise, definitely. Actual skills? I don't think I agree. Vitali undoubtedly has a better chin and always has, but he was never as defensively skilled or responsible as Wlad is now. Vitali was more fluid- Wlad is more precise.

It's hard to say exactly how they compare overall with certainty because ultimately prime Vitali fought a hall of famer in Lewis and a pretty decent Corrie Sanders, while Wlad hasn't fought anybody near that level since he began his prime. I actually sort of think current Vitali might beat prime Vitali because he fights more patiently now.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Louis might be the greatest ever, but most complete? Come on! Have you seen him fight? He was a shuffling plodder. Couldn't fight a boxing-moving style to save his life. Lots of power, but not exceptional handspeed. Probably no better than an above average chin.

The above assessment of Joe Louis has got to be one of the most inane postings at Boxrec ever and that really takes some doing. "No exceptional handspeed", has that ever been said of Louis before?

Look at the video. I'm not saying he didn't have good handspeed, especially for a heavyweight his size, but when I'm talking exceptional I'm talking guys like Ezzard Charles and Muhammad Ali. Watching the Jim Braddock fight, it's clear to me that it's Joe's accuracy, power, timing, and positioning that separates him from Braddock, not his handspeed. Braddock's punches were getting there just as fast as Joe's. And with Ezzard Charles, there were times when Joe would throw a jab at the same time as Charles did, and Charles would have already hit Joe with the jab and a follow-up right hand before Joe even got the jab pulled back. I know that is not nearly Joe at his best, but the difference is stark. And even during his prime, Billy Conn proved WAY faster than Joe, as well. And I know I'm comparing him to smaller guys here, and that may or may not be fair in this context. But Muhammad Ali was the same size as Louis- maybe a little bigger- and do you guys really think there's a comparison there? Anyway- that's my exceptionally long defense of a minor point.

Again, Louis is at least in a toss-up for greatest heavyweight ever, to me. But let me compare him with Wlad for completeness, since someone thought that was a crazy comparison:

Power: Relative to competition you'd have to say Louis. Considering that Wlad doesn't fight a seek and destroy style like Louis and the fact that Wlad is fighting bigger guys, I am not too convinced that Wlad doesn't have more actual empirical power in his punches, though. Like if you put the same opponent in from of each guy and each guy landed his best punch, I'd be hard-pressed to assume that a guy 30 pounds or more lighter who has 5 inches less height and leverage to draw on is going to do more damage. But I'll give Louis credit and say that given his style and era, he applied his power more significantly than does Wlad.

Handspeed: Louis. No argument here.

Chin: Neither guy had an all-time great chin or anything close, in my opinion. That's obviously the closest thing Wlad has to an achilles heel so I'm tempted to say this is a win for Louis, but at the same time it's a little hard for me to picture Max Schmeling knocking out Wlad given the size differential. I'm calling this one a wash.

Conditioning: I don't think this is/was a problem for either guy in their respective primes. Even.

Defense: Wlad at this point can barely be touched by anyone out there. Not even close here.

Movement/Foot speed: Wlad moves a lot more and better than Joe.

Timing/Accuracy: Joe's most impressive quality to me was his ability to time his opponent and land a big shot right on the button. Wlad barely needs timing because he just batters his helpless opponents from a safe distance, but his accuracy is pretty impressive as well. Nowhere near Joe's, though.

Ring Generalship: Both guys excel at this in different ways. Joe shuffled forward to apply smart pressure and get himself in position to expose and plug any holes in the opponent's defense, and to keep them on the defensive. Wlad steps back to lure his opponents into his ideal range and then punishes them for it. I lean toward Wlad on this one, because to me his tactics in this area render him almost unbeatable, whereas Joe still has some vulnerability to a fighter that can match his skill in other areas- particularly someone who could box and move or a fighter with superior handspeed like Conn or Charles.

Heart: I'll give this to Louis based on his comeback against Conn alone.

So I mean maybe I should have gone with Louis, but each guy has his clear strengths and weaknesses compared to his counterpart, and there's a lot of room for interpretation in some categories, so I don't think it's crazy to call Wlad more complete, either.

Rather than punching holes in the series of blunders you call observations, I'll surmise by saying you dont know what the fuk youre talking about

[marcianofan]

Rather than punching holes in the series of blunders you call observations, I'll surmise by saying you dont know what the fuk youre talking about

Exactly what someone with nothing productive to say would do...

[Goodnight, Irene]

The problem with people like you on these boards is you have this sense of entitlement --- a belief that the mere act of putting forth a few paragraphs of one of the most inane and absurd arguments Ive read in a while is a ticket to a reasonable debate. Youre not in need of debate, youre in need of a basic education in what youre looking at. If I argued the sky isnt blue and listed in long-winded fashion why, that doesnt make me any less of a dolt.

I dont know if what I said was productive, but it sure as hell was accurate.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The problem with people like you on these boards is you have this sense of entitlement --- a belief that the mere act of putting forth a few paragraphs of one of the most inane and absurd arguments Ive read in a while is a ticket to a reasonable debate. Youre not in need of debate, youre in need of a basic education in what youre looking at. If I argued the sky isnt blue and listed in long-winded fashion why, that doesnt make me any less of a dolt.

I dont know if what I said was productive, but it sure as hell was accurate.

[marcianofan]

The problem with people like you on these boards is you have this sense of entitlement --- a belief that the mere act of putting forth a few paragraphs of one of the most inane and absurd arguments Ive read in a while is a ticket to a reasonable debate. Youre not in need of debate, youre in need of a basic education in what youre looking at. If I argued the sky isnt blue and listed in long-winded fashion why, that doesnt make me any less of a dolt.

I dont know if what I said was productive, but it sure as hell was accurate.

The problem with people like you on these boards is that you're so assured that you know more than whomever disagrees with you that your unsupported and non-substantive potshots alone strike you as adequate rebuttal. I could do what you just did to any argument made on this board regardless of how strong or weak it may be, and it would have the same effect as you just had: people that already agree with me would automatically agree that my opponent was a fool, while people that disagree would conclude that I'm running from a good (or at least honest) debate. If I'm so blind or uneducated (or whatever other flaw you might settle on and attribute to me), then at least make your case (if there's one to be made) for the benefit of those observers who might not have looked as often as you at the relevant videos, or who might be as confused as me. All you're doing right now is patting yourself on the back for being a boxing genius, and that does nobody any good.

I am willing to concede that I may have been a bit too strong in my denunciation of Louis' completeness as a fighter, particularly after realizing that even the guy I threw out as a potential #2 doesn't rate as clearly better attribute-by-attribute. And as someone said earlier in the thread, there hasn't been a totally complete heavyweight yet, and I am probably guilty of seizing more on Louis' few obvious weaknesses than his exceptional strengths. Perhaps I also could have been more precise in my language regarding his handspeed, as well, so as not to leave the mistaken impression that I thought he was something close average or worse in that area. See? I'm capable of re-analyzing my own off-the-cuff statements for accuracy, even when I'm not prompted to do so by a well-developed counter-argument. Imagine how much smarter you'd feel if you'd gotten me to move closer to your position through superior analysis rather than just hurling pointless insults which reveal nothing about your own knowledge of the subject.

I'd still like to hear if you actually disagree with me that Conn and Charles both trumped Joe's handspeed while fighting him, or that Ali's handspeed was clearly superior. If you do, I will do my best to be more patient and measured in my opposition to your obviously incorrect observations than you were with respect to my less than fully-considered ones from earlier.

[marcianofan]

I think his reflexes and defense are underrated. If you match them up category for category I think Vitali takes most of them, besides maybe footwork.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. It's not really a blowout either way, though.

[scallum]

Joe louis seemed to have everything in place

Joe Louis had very slow foot movement it seems. He would have big problems wit guys like Foreman and Liston if a former lightweight could have him on verge of getting knocked out. Joe would have an absolute nightmare vs Ali who just to quick. The level of Joe Louis competiors is really weak in comparisons to other greats.

What former lightweight had the great Louis on the verge of a knockout?

Billy Conn started his career as a lightweight

[scallum]

Gene Tunney

65-1, almost 50 KO's. Fought most of his career at light heavy, and his last 10 or 11 at heavy. Avenged his only loss (to Harry Greb) multiple times. He possessed footwork and boxing skills like no other during his time, and was very intelligent. 6'1 1/2" 76" reach.

If Billy Conn gave Louis trouble, Tunney would have KO'd him, or beat easily (imo)

X2