Bob Fitzsimmons v Harry Greb

[Boilermaker]

I notice that Klompton still hasnt been baited into this discussion here. Hopefully he is too busy finalising the Harry Greb book.

As we wait maybe a few of you guys could educated me on the Harry Greb vs Mickey Walker (i think it was want it?) streetfight that was apparently widely reported. Greb lost that one for memory. Anyone want to try to cast some doubt on it?

[beaujack]

But, you have to ask, who are the other greats that reach such high levels without having pretty serious power and ability to really hurt an opponent with a punch and power.

how about pep?

Definitely an excellent example but as i stated before, he was such a defensive whizz. Look especially at the winning a round without a punch myth to see just how good he was considered defensively. Young Griffo might be another to fit this category.

I am reading a fair bit about Pep at the moment, and i am leaning towards agreeing with this call. While he was great defensively and from a orthodox techinical perspective a lot better than Greb, it does seem as if he might be the all time great who can succeed without a great KO record, or even stand out power. For those interested here is a good little article from the early days comparing Peps greatness to Abe Attells. Note in particular that he was said to be able to change his game quite a bit, and overwhelm his opponent offensively with his speed. I guess in a way Saad may also be right in that Ali's speed overwhelmed Liston and others and while i stand by the comment that he had underated power, i am leaning towards giving Greb the benefit of any doubt on this point.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=X2 ... +pep&hl=en

Very interesting article by Jimmy Johnson ,oldtime manager extolling the talent of Willie Pep.
He mentions the fight Willie Pep had with the classy lightweight Allie Stolz in 1943 which I saw at MSG.
Pep was magnificent that night. Breathtaking was the word as he gave the lightweight Stolz a
shellacking for 10 rounds, dropping Allie once. The article mentions Pep seeking out to fight Beau Jack, but the bout never came about because Pep ,great as he was at featherweight would have been hurt badly by the bullish swarming 135 pound Beau Jack. Pep did decision a top boxing lightrweight
Willie Joyce,who was a stylish boxer, but NEVER challenged the much stronger Beau Jack those days.

[Boilermaker]

Greb was greater than Fitzsimmons if Bob had 2000 unrecorded fights.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article ... rchLimits=

Well here is one of Bob's unrecorded fights.

It seems that he fought Jim (Jack) Burke was in fact a good experienced heavyweight fighter. He actually fought Paddy Slavin twice according to the above report and went into the first fight as favourite and while losing this one due to a hand injury he appeared to possibly get the nod. Slavin was a genuine top 5 fighter in the World, although i am guessing that he was a little green when the fight took place. Burke also has recorded wins or draws over Charley Mitchell, Alf Greenfield and Captain James Dalton, who are all World Title Challengers as well as draws with World Champions Jim Corbett, the Non Pareil Jack Dempsey, Peter Jackson and Larry Foley. Notice that there are no claims of a win or draw against fitzsimmons and, given that it would ahve been huge news, we can only assume that Fitzsimmons was the victor. Burke did get KO d though, by John L Sullivan. Let us not forget that when this fight took place (and it is not clear exactly when it happened) Fitzsimmons would have been anywhere from a lightweight to a Welterweight(or perhaps slightly over the limit), given that he was campaining as a middleweight at a time when the division was only 150 lbs and not the 160 lbs it had become by the time Greb had his big run as a middleweight/Light Heavy/Heavy.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Wow, Boilermaker relentlessly giving Fitz mouth love. Who could have ever envisioned this?

[Boilermaker]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article ... rchLimits=

There is a little bit more information for those who doubt the Herbert Slade Story. NOthing overly concrete or anything, but it is interesting that the fighter Stagpoole, is claimed to have discovered Slade and Fitzsimmons in the Jem Mace Tourney. I havent seen Stagpool linked with these tournaments before.

[misterpunch]

from what i have read and weighing it up i dont think greb - walker streetfight ever happened.
i also think harry would have beaten ruby robert after a great tussle and maybe even taking a count himself.
this fellow was phenom

[Boilermaker]

from what i have read and weighing it up i dont think greb - walker streetfight ever happened.
i also think harry would have beaten ruby robert after a great tussle and maybe even taking a count himself.
this fellow was phenom

I know that most people who have really looked into it, have decleared the Greb Walker street fight a myth. I dont think it happened, but i havent looked into it enough to really consider it too much. I would like to see a bit of the evidence on both sides again before coming to any final conclusions.

You are of course correct about Greb being a phenom. Although, what Fitzsimmons was in his own time is something more than a phenom. He did things that fighters to day well over 100 years later, still have not been able to replicate. As two quick and obvious examples, we have never ever seen a middleweight win the heavyweight championship of the world and be considered the best fighter in the world. But another similar honour that nobody realises about Fitzsimmons is that he is also the only light heavyweight who has ever managed to win the undisputed heavyweight championship. And he did at a time when heavyweight boxing was considered to be in a golden era similar to the early 70s. Bob Fitzsimmons was considered the greatest pound for pound fighter ever. Some actually considered him the greatest heavyweight ever, for a long time.

[Boilermaker]

Still not much action on this thread by the Greb Fans, and still we wait for the appearance of Klompton (or anyone else) to defend and proclaim the case of the great Harry Greb.

In the mean time, here is some thoughts from John L Sullivan about Bob Fitzsimmons standing in 1900. I cant see how Greb was ever ranked this highly as a heavyweight.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article ... rchLimits=

[Giancarlo]

Some interesting stuff in that old newspaper. Cheers.

[beaujack]

'No chance' is a bit much but I'm guessing you are trying to wind up Klomp a little.

You've pitched 160's biggest puncher versus its best swarmer to test those old pillars of fantasy fight theory.

Two of the greatest ever.

It is good to see some of the older boxers command so much respect on this forum. I agree that this is a swarmer vs puncher fight. Stylistically, at first glance that is a very good summary of the situation. In many ways this is a bit of a repeat of Foreman (puncher) v Frazier (swarmer) style wise. In which case, my prediction looks pretty sound doesnt it?

You are right though, I am trying to attract Klomptons attention to this thread. Greb is an all time great, and if anyone can find a way to challenge Bob Fitzsimmons supremacy as the greatest fighter of all time, it is Greb supported by Klompton. Still, I see that by the end of this thread the opening line from his long awaited book will be somthing like Harry Greb is the second best fighter that ever lived (well actually third behind Fitzsimmons and Dempsey but that is another story )

A few points ---
Bob Fitzsimmons was a freak of nature in that he was a heavyweight OTHER then on the scales.
Harry Greb at 5'9" was truly a MW who was a few pounds over the 160lb mark when he didn't have to defend his MW crown.
Matching Harry Greb against LHs and heavyweights in Fantasy bouts, speaks of his greatness and high regard he is held by astute boxing fans.
He was one of a kind, who describes the old adage, " you can't hurt what you CAN'T HIT". Yes I know that Gene Tunney after Tunney's terrible beating at the hands of Greb in 1922, was on the rise in the next FOUR bouts with the FADING Harry Greb, and Harry supposedly told Tunney ' Gene you are getting to big for me". No shame for Greb admitting that, but it MUST be said that Greb HELD his own in the final 4 bouts with the 12 pound heavier prime Gene Tunney,whilst Greb was winding down with about 250 bouts or more in their last bout in 1925....And with the sight of ONE EYE...
So having said this, in a 15 round bout i believe Harry Greb [at his best] escapes the great power of ple Fitz for a decision. I truly believe what Nat Fleischer said in answer to a question from a Ring reader, who asked Nat, "what round would Sam Langford catch up to Harry Greb to ko him "?
Fleischer who saw all the greats from 1900 on replied, I don't believe Sam Langford or anyone else, catches up to a Harry Greb for a ko ". And I agree with that statement...
I have Greb, Fitz, Langford, Robinson, Walker, Armstrong in my top 5 P4P, any order...

[King Carlos]

The issue with your unwavering view on Fitz's superiority to every man that ever lived, Boilermaker, is that he seems to be the only fighter you know anything about.

[Ezzard]

I have Greb, Fitz, Langford, Robinson, Walker, Armstrong in my top 5 P4P, any order...

Hi Beau

Any room for Ezzard Charles ion that company?

[Goodnight, Irene]

I am a gushing fan of The Toy Bulldog, but Charles deserves his spot there.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I am a gushing fan of The Toy Bulldog, but Charles deserves his spot there.

Agreed, then toss Fitz back a few dozen and it mirrors my own.

Except for the any order. I'm pretty steadfast that Robinson or Langford is #1.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Armstrong at the top for me.

One you dont see NEARLY often enough in the top-5 or 10 --- Joe Walcott.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He is more 40 or 50 range for me.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He is more 40 or 50 range for me.

Barbados Joe!?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Yes

[dempseyfire]

Based on his career. Harry's resume dwarfs Bob's, not even arguable.

Really.

How do you figure this? Longevity? No, Dominance? No, Overall better fighters? No.

As good as Harry was, his resume doesnt compare. What is it that you see as Harry's strength in resume, that you like?

You said name Greb's 10 best Ws vs Fitz's 10 best . . gladly:

Greb:
Gene Tunney
Mike Gibbons
Tommy Gibbons
Micky Walker
Maxie Rosenbloom
Kid Norfolk
Battling Levinsky
Jack Dillon
Billy Miske
Jimmy Slatterly
Plus there are many great names if you kept going, like Jimmy Delaney, Jeff Smith, and George Chip

Now Fitz
Jim Corbett
Nonpar. Jack Dempsey (Fitz the much larger man)
Joe Choynski
Tom Sharkey
Philadelphia Jack O'Brian
George Gardner
Peter Maher
Gus Ruhlin . . then a steep drop-off
Jim Hall
Harris Martin

I'll take Greb's over Fitz's anyday of the week.

[beaujack]

I have Greb, Fitz, Langford, Robinson, Walker, Armstrong in my top 5 P4P, any order...

Hi Beau

Any room for Ezzard Charles ion that company?

E, I have the highest respect for the great Ezzard Charles. As a young middleweight Ezzard was almost unbeatable before he joined the LH ranks. As a LH he along with Gene Tunney were supreme IMO. So yes Ezzard has to be in the ten best P4P fighters alongst Benny Leonard, Joe Wacott, Joe Louis and yes the 187 pound Manassa Mauler..
P.S. P4P means the unique ability to tackle much bigger opposition and to be successful IMO...

[King Carlos]

Barbados Joe is difficult to get a grasp on. On one hand, some of his achievements were truly amazing, but he lacked any real consistency, even against the best men his own size. I don't hold the Lavigne "losses" against him much, though, given the circumstances. Especially the first fight. He won a good 10 out of the 15 rounds, but the stipulations of the bout were that if he failed to win by knock-out, the decision automatically went to Lavigne. Some strange arrangements back then. Then he was clearly not in the best of conditions for the rematch. Still a hell of an achievement by Lavigne, though.

[Ezzard]

I have Greb, Fitz, Langford, Robinson, Walker, Armstrong in my top 5 P4P, any order...

Hi Beau

Any room for Ezzard Charles ion that company?

E, I have the highest respect for the great Ezzard Charles. As a young middleweight Ezzard was almost unbeatable before he joined the LH ranks. As a LH he along with Gene Tunney were supreme IMO. So yes Ezzard has to be in the ten best P4P fighters alongst Benny Leonard, Joe Wacott, Joe Louis and yes the 187 pound Manassa Mauler..
P.S. P4P means the unique ability to tackle much bigger opposition and to be successful IMO...

All good picks...

[bollox]

Here's about 9 minutes footage of Greb. No fight footage I'm afraid but still better than a kick in the goolies

http://www.archive.org/details/HarryGrebNewsreel

[Boilermaker]

Here's about 9 minutes footage of Greb. No fight footage I'm afraid but still better than a kick in the goolies

http://www.archive.org/details/HarryGrebNewsreel

Excellent post.

What do you guys think about the Greb vs Philadelphia Jack O brien footage.

I was surprised how much bigger Philadelphia Jack O brien looked to be honest. I know that it was only a light sparring session by the looks, but i think it was really really interesting.

For the topic of the current situation, it is interesting that Jack did appear to land quite cleanly in one small exchange in the clinch. Harry might be in a little trouble if Fitz did the same?

[beaujack]

Here's about 9 minutes footage of Greb. No fight footage I'm afraid but still better than a kick in the goolies

http://www.archive.org/details/HarryGrebNewsreel

Excellent post.

What do you guys think about the Greb vs Philadelphia Jack O brien footage.

I was surprised how much bigger Philadelphia Jack O brien looked to be honest. I know that it was only a light sparring session by the looks, but i think it was really really interesting.

For the topic of the current situation, it is interesting that Jack did appear to land quite cleanly in one small exchange in the clinch. Harry might be in a little trouble if Fitz did the same?

Yes, Phil Jack O'Brien was about 180 pounds in 1925.He fought at about 173-05 pounds as a LH champ about 20 years before this training clip with Greb. Greb in 1925 was at 160 lbs, MUCH smaller than O.Brien...
To think that Phil. Jack O'Brien fought 3 of the greatest MWs ever in Fitz, Ketchel, and sparring with the unorthodox Pittsburgh Windmill. Some resume,I would think...