Joe Frazier v Sonny Liston

[misterpunch]

I think he has realised and gone off to tell some other people what he knows about boxing

[klompton]

Liston would be eaten alive by Frazier. Frazier would make him quit.

[Syntax Error]

I'M new here but in this thread there are people who know about boxing and others who are clueless.Joe Frazier is only a foil to Ali and any real punchers would slap him silly like Foreman did.He had trouble with Oscar Ie Ringo Bonavena who was shot and killed in a brothel.Fraziers only win of note was against Ali.Jimmy Ellis Jerry Quarry are glass jawed fighters made to order for Frazier.Bonavena almost beat him.Bonavina had above average power.Frazier like Patterson was carefully managed and the likes of Shavers Lyle were kept from him until they took Foreman and Frazier was pummelled into Oblivion.Liston a more skilled and harder puncher than Big George would knock Frazier out in round 1 in 1-3 knockdowns.Liston would have crushed Ali if the mob and boxing powers did not order Liston to take a dive.Newly realeased FBI reports from the time said that the fight was fixed from spying the FBi was doing at the time due to reports that the fight was being fixed before the fight.We are talikng the first fight not the blantant obvious phatom Punch fix of the seecond fight.Frazier camp would not even consider fighting liston post Ali fights because Fraziers camp knew punchers would starch smoking Joe.Frazier was like Norton a good foil for boxers but a feast for any good punching heavyweights.

This has to be the most ironic post in Boxrec history.

[Seamus]

Well there definitely was something wrong with Sonny Liston in that first fight, and that something was Cassius Clay

[BoxBuzz]

Let's face it, a bullet took out Boanavena. That's a fact

And Frazier had trouble with Oscar. Another fact

The guy who posted this information is new around here. Again a fact


Assembling facts like these can be difficult and time consuming.


Facts are important. Let the facts speak for themselves.

[misterpunch]

there's no such thing as facts - and that's a fact

[BoxBuzz]

there's no such thing as facts - and that's a fact

No....that's a truth.

[badkatt]

Liston would be eaten alive by Frazier. Frazier would make him quit.

not many people would agree with you on this one but i do

[campfire]

Both in their prime I thing this would be a gruelling fight for both men FRAZIER would be staggered a couple of time's in the first 3 round's
but with pure determination would claw his way back into the fight and stop LISTON in 11 unbelievable round's

[DrDuke]

I tend to agree with the opinion, that Liston was likely to have some success early, but Joe would have established his dominance somewhere closer to the midpoint and would have stopped Liston late. Frazier's pressure would have been too much for Sonny.

[Kalan]

It would be another Foreman-Frazier fight.... Liston badly wanted Frazier.... The perfect style for him, like Patterson.

Sonny said.... "I wouldn't have to chase him... It would be like shooting fish in a barrel."

Liston had a tremendous straight right... As Smokin' loaded his hook.... KABLAAAM!!! ....

That's how George got him, but with the uppercut.

[BoxBuzz]

It would be another Foreman-Frazier fight.... Liston badly wanted Frazier.... The perfect style or him, like Patterson.

Sonny said.... "I wouldn't have to chase him... It would be like shooting fish in a barrel."

Liston had a tremendous straight right... As Smokin' loaded his hook.... KABLAAAM!!! ....

That's how George got him, but with the uppercut.

That is a simpleton assessment. And it's saying that Floyd and Joe were two peas in a pod. Anybody else buyin' this load of manure? It would absolutely not be a another "Foreman Frazier" fight.....but that is a very popular tune. And your cover of that top ten loony tune, is about as good as anyone else's I've heard.

[BoxBuzz]

Frazier, Ali, and Foreman "shocked the world" on their best nights.

Some fighters are just full of surprises ain"t they?

Did Sonny "Outperform expectations"? When he KO'd Patterson? OK, some will say that was shocking I suppose.

His most shocking moments were probably when he fell short. Like Tyson he was sort of constructed to eventually collapse. Each saving their most relevant moments for their declines.

"Jumping the synapse" is something some folks just can't fathom. And yet it's flat out as real as it gets. And usually that prime bit of real estate is owned by those fighters with "iron psyche constitutions."

Not the Liston's and the Tyson's as much as the Ali's, Frazier's and perhaps Holyfield's. (lol ok I"m goin' for your buttons with EH lol) Foreman demonstrated how you can travel inexplicably from one side of these tracks to the other.

Some fighters are hard to peg by the "assessors". And they outperform expectations...because they can.


Maybe Sonny SHOULD beat Joe....but he wouldn't. IMHO.

[Kalan]

It would be another Foreman-Frazier fight.... Liston badly wanted Frazier.... The perfect style or him, like Patterson.

Sonny said.... "I wouldn't have to chase him... It would be like shooting fish in a barrel."

Liston had a tremendous straight right... As Smokin' loaded his hook.... KABLAAAM!!! ....

That's how George got him, but with the uppercut.

That is a simpleton assessment. And it's saying that Floyd and Joe were two peas in a pod. Anybody else buyin' this load of manure? It would absolutely not be a another "Foreman Frazier" fight.....but that is a very popular tune. And your cover of that top ten loony tune, is about as good as anyone else's I've heard.

No... It's a subtle analysis that simpletons like you find taxing to assess BuzzBox... You lack the brain power.

So let me break it down... The only style that gave prime Liston any problems were stand up boxers like Machen... Prime punchers, like Cleveland Williams, and aggressive bobbing & weaving types with a high work rate, like Patterson, were knocked colder than 7 barrels of penguin shitt... PARTICULARLY aggressive bobbing and weaving types...

Patterson and Frazier had several things in common besides aggressive bobbing and weaving and a high work rate ... They were both short... They both led with their heads... They both cranked up big, blasting left hooks... They both lacked size and strength... And they both got nailed by straight right hands... That's how you knock left hookers out... As they crank one up you drive the right, straight and true... This might all be new to you BuzzBox - so take your time..

[BoxBuzz]

You have demonstrated far more than enough brain power to blow your own nose, but don't go round braggin'.

Frazier in his prime was pretty good at avoiding the Jab......and as you have pointed out....later on, when his eyesight was failing he lost that lucky charm. And as many times as Foreman knocked him down, he got back up. So he was no Patterson in the chin dept. In his prime he would have a good chance to avoid Liston's shots, and as a result this would be a lot more contested fight than you are able to fathom.

Frazier did not wear down.....so if he dont' get sparked he can win the attrition contest. Now if you go and take an eye away from him....... sure that ups Sonny's chances....but just for fun, let's give Frazier both of his eyes in this hypothetical.

And while your at it, open up both of your eyes, and you'll see clearlly just what I'm gettin at here.

No need to apologize for your oversight.....I'm happy to help you recalibrate and help clarify things for you.

You can trust me, I'm not like the rest.

[Kalan]

You have demonstrated far more than enough brain power to blow your own nose,

You haven't demonstrated enough brain power to blow your nose... All that snot got backed up into your brain.

Anybody who cranks up left hooks is wide open for jabs as well as straight rights... Frazier had a great chin and walked right through everybody he faced except 203-pound Bonavena and 217-pound Foreman who was more powerful... The super slow punching stubby armed Bonavena knocked Frazier down so don't tell he had a good defense. A very old Patterson beat Bonavena. Jimmy Ellis easily beat Bonavena.. But Oscar knocks Frazier down and whacks him a lot.

Ali said.. "You saw me hit Frazier with 500 punches... His head all swollen up... He only wins by taking more punches than the average guy can throw... The Foreman-Frazier fight was the 16th and 17th round of my fight with Frazier."

Frazier was wide open for EVERYTHING... Jabs, hooks, right hands, uppercuts, 45's, straight right power shots... He was a dead open target for anybody as big and powerful as Sonny Liston or 6'3" X 217 George Foreman... You catch on very slowly... When fighting a left hooker you wait for him to load one up and tear his head off with a straight right..

Liston made a living smashing left hookers like Patterson and Williams... Straight shots beat hooks... Comprende?

[oogiebe]

Frazier is 'made' for a Liston.

[BoxBuzz]

Frazier is 'made' for a Liston.

Well, that's the popular opinion. Though some have a different take. And the mechanics and the psyche aspects don't always align. Though for the most part it's a good bet.

[Kalan]

Now you're almost starting to think..... But careful....don't blow a gasket.

[oogiebe]

Now you're almost starting to think..... But careful....don't blow a gasket.

LOL!!! Cut it out!

[oogiebe]

Funnily enough to most people it was Foreman's " uppercuts " that did for Joe, not straight rights.

...and hooks from both sides.

[BoxBuzz]

.............and now back to our programming.....chapter 4 ......"Frazier was made for Liston" and please don't leave the script.

[Kalan]

Joe was a dipper... He'd dip down and come up with the hook like Dempsey... Joe'd either throw the hook or not... pop the jab and dip again.. Tunney hit Dempsey all the time with the straight right and the jab... Tunney wasn't big and had no power, but he hit Dempsey monotonously... It was a 10-round beating... Ken Norton was tall, but he was a dipper.

Frazier broke up his rhythm to try to fool you.. You needed good timing and a sharp delivery to get him.. Foreman loved dippers because every time he landed he hurt them... At 217 he was raw boned and the sharpest of his life... Patterson was a dipper and you could time him with straight rights or uppercuts.. Liston did both... Dippers give you their head to shoot at... If you're big, tall, and strong with great hand speed, timing, and sharpness, it's not a good night for them..

6 to 10 pounds of excess weight.... poor strength training and conditioning.... a poor training camp with poor sparring.... not enough rounds or fights the previous 2 years... a bad night's sleep... Many things can make small impairments to your speed, timing, and sharpness... You can have a bad fight like a hitter can go 0-for-5 or 5-for-5 at the plate in Baseball.

Skillful and sharp right hand counterpunchers like Schmeling, Joshua, or Holmes beats the crap out out of dippers.. Marvis Frazier was able to avoid Joe Bugner's ridiculous, slow punches, but got nailed straight away by Holmes.

Frazier was also a bobber and weaver and rhythm fighter... Which means you didn't have to be throwing punches at him to gauge his head movements... Frazier ducked right into the first knockdown shot... Foreman loaded the uppercut from well below his waist and and Smokin' ducked right into it... Bobbers and weavers supply some of your power.

Joe was already hurt before the 1st knockdown... He was hurt a minute into the fight.

[oogiebe]

Joe was a dipper... He'd dip down and come up with the hook like Dempsey... Joe'd either throw the hook or not... pop the jab and dip again.. Tunney hit Dempsey all the time with the straight right and the jab... Tunney wasn't big and had no power, but he hit Dempsey monotonously... It was a 10-round beating... Ken Norton was tall, but he was a dipper.

Frazier broke up his rhythm to try to fool you.. You needed good timing and a sharp delivery to get him.. Foreman loved dippers because every time he landed he hurt them... At 217 he was raw boned and the sharpest of his life... Patterson was a dipper and you could time him with straight rights or uppercuts.. Liston did both... Dippers give you their head to shoot at... If you're big, tall, and strong with great hand speed, timing, and sharpness, it's not a good night for them..

6 to 10 pounds of excess weight.... poor strength training and conditioning.... a poor training camp with poor sparring.... not enough rounds or fights the previous 2 years... a bad night's sleep... Many things can make small impairments to your speed, timing, and sharpness... You can have a bad fight like a hitter can go 0-for-5 or 5-for-5 at the plate in Baseball.

Skillful and sharp right hand counterpunchers like Schmeling, Joshua, or Holmes beats the crap out out of dippers.. Marvis Frazier was able to avoid Joe Bugner's ridiculous, slow punches, but got nailed straight away by Holmes.

Frazier was also a bobber and weaver and rhythm fighter... Which means you didn't have to be throwing punches at him to gauge his head movements... Frazier ducked right into the first knockdown shot... Foreman loaded the uppercut from well below his waist and and Smokin' ducked right into it... Bobbers and weavers supply some of you power.

Joe was already hurt before the 1st knockdown... He was hurt a minute into the fight.

In lesser words...Liston wins!

[Kalan]

Joe was a dipper... He'd dip down and come up with the hook like Dempsey... Joe'd either throw the hook or not... pop the jab and dip again.. Tunney hit Dempsey all the time with the straight right and the jab... Tunney wasn't big and had no power, but he hit Dempsey monotonously... It was a 10-round beating... Ken Norton was tall, but he was a dipper.

Frazier broke up his rhythm to try to fool you.. You needed good timing and a sharp delivery to get him.. Foreman loved dippers because every time he landed he hurt them... At 217 he was raw boned and the sharpest of his life... Patterson was a dipper and you could time him with straight rights or uppercuts.. Liston did both... Dippers give you their head to shoot at... If you're big, tall, and strong with great hand speed, timing, and sharpness, it's not a good night for them..

6 to 10 pounds of excess weight.... poor strength training and conditioning.... a poor training camp with poor sparring.... not enough rounds or fights the previous 2 years... a bad night's sleep... Many things can make small impairments to your speed, timing, and sharpness... You can have a bad fight like a hitter can go 0-for-5 or 5-for-5 at the plate in Baseball.

Skillful and sharp right hand counterpunchers like Schmeling, Joshua, or Holmes beats the crap out out of dippers.. Marvis Frazier was able to avoid Joe Bugner's ridiculous, slow punches, but got nailed straight away by Holmes.

Frazier was also a bobber and weaver and rhythm fighter... Which means you didn't have to be throwing punches at him to gauge his head movements... Frazier ducked right into the first knockdown shot... Foreman loaded the uppercut from well below his waist and and Smokin' ducked right into it... Bobbers and weavers supply some of you power.

Joe was already hurt before the 1st knockdown... He was hurt a minute into the fight.

In lesser words...Liston wins!

True... And just why he wins can be interesting... That is if you like the analytical side of the sport.