BoxRec

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/sports/14bowe.html

The article is a couple of years old but sad if Bowe is still doing stuff like this. Hope he doesn't come back.

stujones wrote:Lewis vs Bowe would not have been the biggest fight in 1993. The biggest fight in 1993 would always have been Bowe vs Holyfield 2 given the intensity and drama of fight 1. It really wasn't just the Heavyweight fight of the year, but it was also one for the ages.... Holyfield and Bowe was the Ali - Frazier of the 90's.
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Stu that simply isn't true. I remember all this very clearly. Bowe v Holy II was actually a hard sell and forced on team Bowe by a contract clause which gave Holy a rematch provided he beat a top 10 contender first. That guy was Alex Stewart, and Holy looked very laboured in decisioning him.

Although in retrospect Bowe had put on weight and become badly disciplined in the year since winning the title, at the time he had also completely walked through both overmatched Dokes and Ferguson, and was widely seen as improving.

Bowe v Lewis would have been the biggest fight in boxing bar none in 1993. Lewis was big news in the US. King paid him $9m for the defence against Tucker, a huge sun at the time.

chinny wrote: Bowe v Lewis would have been the biggest fight in boxing bar none in 1993. Lewis was big news in the US. King paid him $9m for the defence against Tucker, a huge sun at the time.

Oh come on mate, that is nonsense. Don King grossly overpaid Lewis $9m in order to secure the fight over his rivals, and potentially control the the WBC title either by his man Tony Tucker winning it or by impressing Lewis so much with they money that Lennie signed with him.

Lewis/Tucker was not a big fight at all, not a sell out, and Don King lost serious money because of his massive bid.

The magazine reviews in the US for Lewis were scathing, Boxing Illustrated asking after the Tucker fight 'JUST HOW GOOD IS LEWIS? HOW BAD?' His unprofessional performances vs Bruno, then Jackson attracted the same kind of reviews until McCall knocked him out in two.

stujones wrote:James, Gonzales had a stellar amateur record yes and was big - but was hardly setting the world alight in the pro's (I don't think anyone who saw him fight was believing he was the next big thing).... he was rediculously green before he fought Bowe.

Wrong, Boxing Monthly championed him, had him on their front cover and thought he could potentially be the next big thing. He was dangerous, until Bowe beat it out of him.

Boxing Monthly (and Glyn imparticular) got a lot of stick in the letters pages before and certainly after the Bowe fight for their championing of Gonzales

Boxing Monthly, if memory serves me, actually went for a Gonzales win.... but even in writing that report they stated it wasn't based on anything he did in the pro's - it was more like a stab in the dark punt.

Gonzales hadn't done anything in the pro's..... he hadn't been the top of the bill in the states. Had very little TV coverage and his best performance was a laboured win over a way over the hill Renaldo Snipes.

It wasn't even close to a Michael Grant situation, I was a youngster at the time and I wrote to BM asking "if Jose Luis Gonzales is this fantastic fighter whose going to beat Riddick Bowe - how come he aint in the top ten heavyweight rankings". I actually got a personal reply from BM (which was a fantastic touch) which stated that basically Gonzales aint done bugger all as a pro, not beaten anyone close to the top ten but that doesn't stop him from being a good fighter who we think can beat Bowe - although oddly, for the rankings just before the fight BM sneaked Gonzales in at 10!

At least Michael Grant had beaten some top ten opponents before he faced Lewis. Gonzales hadn't beaten anyone of note, there were rumours that he was ALOT older than he was claiming he was and he looked laboured and dissinterested in all the few fights that were televised. Reminds me, in terms of hype, of this Ustinov guy.

Don't want to slag off Boxing Monthly, or any other trade (Magazine) journo for that matter.... but sometimes they will go for a stab in the dark punt, based on just a gut feeling. Boxing Monthly actually tipped Sugar Ray Leonard to comeback 7 years after taking a shellacking of all shellackings and beat, an active, Hector Camacho.... although as they stated, purely an utterly a gut feeling that Ray knows what he is doing.

Anyone know what happened to Gonzalez after he retired? He took a lot of punishment from some big punchers in his career.

Yep - I'm not knocking Glyn or BM in any way. I grew up on BM and those mid-90s issues make me feel very warm & fuzzy indeed. Gonzalez looked like he could be something very dangerous, and one of the reasons he hadn't fought anyone outside of Snipes is that nobody wanted to fight him.

Don King had Bowe frozen out of the WBC, WBA and IBF rankings by 1995 so a Gonzalez bout for the WBO belt he was trying to legitimize made perfect sense.

J-C wrote:Anyone know what happened to Gonzalez after he retired? He took a lot of punishment from some big punchers in his career.

I would love to know what Gonzalez does now. I know he had children back in Cuba and it troubled him that he could not see them. Too bad he couldn't knuckle down with his pro career but the free and easy lifestyle must have been too much fun for a man who spent 30 years or so in communist Cuba.

loaded_gloves wrote:

stujones wrote:James, Gonzales had a stellar amateur record yes and was big - but was hardly setting the world alight in the pro's (I don't think anyone who saw him fight was believing he was the next big thing).... he was rediculously green before he fought Bowe.

Wrong, Boxing Monthly championed him, had him on their front cover and thought he could potentially be the next big thing. He was dangerous, until Bowe beat it out of him.

Dunno about championed, we don't 'support' people as such, but we certainly gave him good coverage at a point where he was getting very little. He was a colourful character and a good, dangerous fighter, but with serious technical flaws which Bowe and later Tim Witherspoon exposed brutally. They tore him apart.

chinny wrote:

stujones wrote:Lewis vs Bowe would not have been the biggest fight in 1993. The biggest fight in 1993 would always have been Bowe vs Holyfield 2 given the intensity and drama of fight 1. It really wasn't just the Heavyweight fight of the year, but it was also one for the ages.... Holyfield and Bowe was the Ali - Frazier of the 90's.
.

Stu that simply isn't true. I remember all this very clearly. Bowe v Holy II was actually a hard sell and forced on team Bowe by a contract clause which gave Holy a rematch provided he beat a top 10 contender first. That guy was Alex Stewart, and Holy looked very laboured in decisioning him.

Although in retrospect Bowe had put on weight and become badly disciplined in the year since winning the title, at the time he had also completely walked through both overmatched Dokes and Ferguson, and was widely seen as improving.

Bowe v Lewis would have been the biggest fight in boxing bar none in 1993. Lewis was big news in the US. King paid him $9m for the defence against Tucker, a huge sun at the time.

Yes, all the experts went for Bowe... I very much remember that, but it was still a big fight. I cannot remember that there were any problems selling out cesars palace. It was one of the last Heavyweight title fights to be showcased live on Terrestial TV also (I think only Moorer vs Holyfield 2 and Lewis vs Rahman 1 have been shown live since)

Nobody would have realistically given Foreman a chance against Bowe either, but it would still have sold like hotcakes.

Lewis was paid a shit load for the Tucker fight, but the manner in which he won the title (not his fault - but a low key way of being awarded the title) and his manner of his victories against Tucker (who whilst some experts gave a punchers chances, wasn't exactly box office), Bruno (a fighter seen at the time as a relative joke stateside) he was seen largely, in the stateside boxing fraternity, as a second teir champion. More regonisable than Tommy Morrison, but not be a big distance.

It was really the Golota fight that got the Yanks talking.

Was the Tucker fight even a sell out? It certainly wasn't in a venue as prestigeous as ceasar's palace.

stujones wrote:Lewis vs Bowe would not have been the biggest fight in 1993. The biggest fight in 1993 would always have been Bowe vs Holyfield 2 given the intensity and drama of fight 1. It really wasn't just the Heavyweight fight of the year, but it was also one for the ages.... Holyfield and Bowe was the Ali - Frazier of the 90's.

Also, although it never happened, it could be argued that any fight involving Foreman would have been bigger in terms of box office than Lewis in 1993. Foreman was simply massive in the states on his return.

I've never been too down on Bowe not taking the Lewis fight in 1993 - I think Holyfield was his cash cow and Lewis was far too risky for it.

However, no excuses as to why Bowe didn't offer the fight as WBO champion.... on the flip side, did Lewis offer any fight to Bowe during his second reign as WBC champion. I know Bowe retired after Golota, but just wondering did Lewis mention fighting Bowe in 1997.

James, Gonzales had a stellar amateur record yes and was big - but was hardly setting the world alight in the pro's (I don't think anyone who saw him fight was believing he was the next big thing).... he was rediculously green before he fought Bowe.

If Bowe had fought Lewis in 1993, it most certainly would have been the biggest HW fight of that year.

If Bowe had lost, it is very unlikely he would have fought Holyfield again in 1993. Even if he did, it would have been a 2 ex champs in a fight for the right to face champion Lewis.

If Bowe had beaten Lewis, then maybe Bowe -v- Holyfield 2 would have been bigger, but I doubt very much that the fight would have taken place in 1993, as the modern fighters don't fight often enough, especially big superfights, so I doubt very much that Bowe would have faced both Lewis & Holyfield in the same calendar year.

Glyn Leach wrote:

loaded_gloves wrote:

stujones wrote:James, Gonzales had a stellar amateur record yes and was big - but was hardly setting the world alight in the pro's (I don't think anyone who saw him fight was believing he was the next big thing).... he was rediculously green before he fought Bowe.

Wrong, Boxing Monthly championed him, had him on their front cover and thought he could potentially be the next big thing. He was dangerous, until Bowe beat it out of him.

Dunno about championed, we don't 'support' people as such, but we certainly gave him good coverage at a point where he was getting very little. He was a colourful character and a good, dangerous fighter, but with serious technical flaws which Bowe and later Tim Witherspoon exposed brutally. They tore him apart.

Memory could be fading now, but did Gonzales smash Bowe as an amateur? or was it Lewis?

BO Selecta wrote:

stujones wrote:Lewis vs Bowe would not have been the biggest fight in 1993. The biggest fight in 1993 would always have been Bowe vs Holyfield 2 given the intensity and drama of fight 1. It really wasn't just the Heavyweight fight of the year, but it was also one for the ages.... Holyfield and Bowe was the Ali - Frazier of the 90's.

Also, although it never happened, it could be argued that any fight involving Foreman would have been bigger in terms of box office than Lewis in 1993. Foreman was simply massive in the states on his return.

I've never been too down on Bowe not taking the Lewis fight in 1993 - I think Holyfield was his cash cow and Lewis was far too risky for it.

However, no excuses as to why Bowe didn't offer the fight as WBO champion.... on the flip side, did Lewis offer any fight to Bowe during his second reign as WBC champion. I know Bowe retired after Golota, but just wondering did Lewis mention fighting Bowe in 1997.

James, Gonzales had a stellar amateur record yes and was big - but was hardly setting the world alight in the pro's (I don't think anyone who saw him fight was believing he was the next big thing).... he was rediculously green before he fought Bowe.

If Bowe had fought Lewis in 1993, it most certainly would have been the biggest HW fight of that year.
If Bowe had lost, it is very unlikely he would have fought Holyfield again in 1993. Even if he did, it would have been a 2 ex champs in a fight for the right to face champion Lewis.

If Bowe had beaten Lewis, then maybe Bowe -v- Holyfield 2 would have been bigger, but I doubt very much that the fight would have taken place in 1993, as the modern fighters don't fight often enough, especially big superfights, so I doubt very much that Bowe would have faced both Lewis & Holyfield in the same calendar year.

I'll agree to disagree on the first statement, whilst the trade magazines and experts might have rather see Bowe test himself against someone else - rather than someone who looked like they had peaked and were on the downside. However, I think the american fans would have paid more to see Holyfield vs Bowe 2.

Just my opinion, shame we never got to find out.

stujones wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:

loaded_gloves wrote: Wrong, Boxing Monthly championed him, had him on their front cover and thought he could potentially be the next big thing. He was dangerous, until Bowe beat it out of him.

Dunno about championed, we don't 'support' people as such, but we certainly gave him good coverage at a point where he was getting very little. He was a colourful character and a good, dangerous fighter, but with serious technical flaws which Bowe and later Tim Witherspoon exposed brutally. They tore him apart.

Memory could be fading now, but did Gonzales smash Bowe as an amateur? or was it Lewis?

Beat them both in the space of 24 hours.

Has a win over Teofilo Stevenson too.

stujones wrote:
Was the Tucker fight even a sell out? It certainly wasn't in a venue as prestigeous as ceasar's palace.

I'm pretty sure it was at the Thomas & Mack but think it sold well. It should have done - it had Julian Jackson v Gerald McClellan and JCC V terrence alli on the undercard!

For the poster who asked about pre title Bowe fights, from memory I'd recommend Tony Tubbs and Pierre Coetzer fights, although as a warning, in the latter Bowe's sizeable arse in show for a good portion of it after his trunks split!

To quote myself, regarding the 'success' of the Lewis/Tucker bill:

loaded_gloves wrote:Don King grossly overpaid Lewis $9m in order to secure the fight over his rivals, and potentially control the the WBC title either by his man Tony Tucker winning it or by impressing Lewis so much with they money that Lennie signed with him.

Lewis/Tucker was not a big fight at all, not a sell out, and Don King lost serious money because of his massive bid.

The magazine reviews in the US for Lewis were scathing, Boxing Illustrated asking after the Tucker fight 'JUST HOW GOOD IS LEWIS? HOW BAD?' His unprofessional performances vs Bruno, then Jackson attracted the same kind of reviews until McCall knocked him out in two.

chinny wrote:For the poster who asked about pre title Bowe fights, from memory I'd recommend Tony Tubbs and Pierre Coetzer fights, although as a warning, in the latter Bowe's sizeable arse in show for a good portion of it after his trunks split!

It's all about Bowe versus Bert Cooper! Smokin' Bert had just gone to war with Mercer, busting his jaw and going 12 rds. A year later he would give Holyfield hell on 7 days notice. Bowe bombs him out in 2!

Bowe also bombed out Bruce Seldon in 1, broke Rodolfo Marin's jaw in three pieces on Tyson/Ruddock 2 undercard, and had a fun war with Tyrell Biggs who he stopped in 8. Coetzer is a good fight too.

Tony Tubbs made easy work of Bowe, however.

Lionel Butler for Bowes debut fight, who would of thought Butler would go on to fight Lennox Lewis in a world title eliminator!

The winners of Bowe-Holyfield and Lewis-Ruddock were supposed to square off. If Lennox had ground out a disputed points decision then Bowe would have fought him next. But the manner of Lewis’s victory changed that.

To me, it looked like a classic bit of putting the fight off to make it bigger. Give Lennox a title and call it a unification fight. Make the fight in a year or two. Obviously a bu11sh1t move but par for the course in boxing.

So, the blame lies with Bowe/Newman but I didn’t think he was ever scared.

Of course, he knew Lennox might beat him.

Again though Ezzard, you can't get around the corruption of the WBC. Don King-controlled WBC champs throughout the divisions were allowed to defend against whoever they like. But Bowe and Newman, outrageously independent from the Suilaman and King gang, were given no slack, no leeway, and they had to go straight in with Lewis after an epic with Holyfield? Ridiculous.

Ultimately Holyfield and Oliver McCall swung their spanners in the works as well.

Found this on Bowe, he was at the Judah v Paris fight. And his 'advisors' are trying to get a wrestling match against Golota on in Poland, what a sad way to go , reminds me of some 1940's film noir type script.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/boxing ... lota-again

loaded_gloves wrote:Again though Ezzard, you can't get around the corruption of the WBC. Don King-controlled WBC champs throughout the divisions were allowed to defend against whoever they like. But Bowe and Newman, outrageously independent from the Suilaman and King gang, were given no slack, no leeway, and they had to go straight in with Lewis after an epic with Holyfield? Ridiculous.

Ultimately Holyfield and Oliver McCall swung their spanners in the works as well.

It's a fair point but it's hard for me to have sympathy with a guy just because he was being forced to fight the best contender out there.

Okay, it should be consistent across the board but even so.

The book; 'Mamas Boy' a biography of Lewis has some very interesting stuff about Bowe that was not about in the print media at the time. (I tried to read all the magazines etc but the bits in the book (no sleaze just info) was new to me).

The problem with 'Mama's Boy' is that it is ridiculously biased and completely loaded in favour of Lewis. The writer idolises Lewis and sees everything regarding his career as angelic Good (Lewis) vs Satanic Evil (everybody else). The writer dismisses some of the greatest and most devastating heavyweights of all time, calling them too 'frail' to cope with Lewis. He even says Lewis looked ready to continue after the Rahman knockout, and that it was a quick count. I nearly dropped the book at that point.

The biog is outrageous and I would not give the writer or anything he says the slightest credence.