BoxRec

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Read my post again.

I read it right the first time.

Keep reading until the folly of your reply registers.

Sincerely, you and Gabi routinely complain Saad and I talk down and treat you guys like idiots, so here's your chance (third one for this thread, but whatever) to prove me wrong...

keithmoonhangover wrote:

foxy01 wrote:

yancey wrote: LMAO at the above.

Ali was all of 29 for the FOTC. The legs weren't gone.

Ali-Frazier is ALWAYS a tough fight for both men. Either COULD win. Frazier's style is made to order to always trouble the more physically gifted Ali.

No "all day long" whipping the other guy for either fighter. Anybody that believes that simply does not know what they are talking about.

That is pure garbage. The man had had an enforced 3 year lay off. Of course the legs were gone, along with the footspeed they created.

Why am I suddenly reminded of that '90s movie "Dumb and Dumber"?

foxy01 wrote:Allow me to spoon feed you the answer real slow so as you just might grasp it.

Fact.

Chuvalo lost to Ali.

Fact.

Joe Frazier also sent Ali to the hospital, after winning their first fight, and he was indeed still pissing blood 2 weeks after the fight.

Based on facts 1, and 2. Frazier whether the harder puncher or not landed more shots on Ali than Chuvalo did.

That's not a logical conclusion based on your two facts. The only conclusion you can reach based on those facts is that both men hit Ali sufficiently to put him in the hospital.

foxy01 wrote: Now you may find it difficult to believe, but a lot of folks will be inclined to think this was due to Ali slowing down considerably after the 3 year lay off.

Pre ban Ali might beat prime Frazier but you are the only one here who thinks it would be an easy win for him and that's the disagreement. I tried to argue that if Chuvalo could hit (not beat) pre ban Ali then Frazier would also be able to do it since Joe was clearly the better pressure fighter. Apparently that didn't register with you at all.

foxy01 wrote:Oh and by the way, you do not have a monopoly on patronising people.

I don't feel patronized by your logical fallacy at all but if it makes you stop crying I can pretend that I am. Oops did I patronize you again?

hhaehre wrote:

foxy01 wrote:Allow me to spoon feed you the answer real slow so as you just might grasp it.

Fact.

Chuvalo lost to Ali.

Fact.

Joe Frazier also sent Ali to the hospital, after winning their first fight, and he was indeed still pissing blood 2 weeks after the fight.

Based on facts 1, and 2. Frazier whether the harder puncher or not landed more shots on Ali than Chuvalo did.

That's not a logical conclusion based on your two facts. The only conclusion you can reach based on those facts is that both men hit Ali sufficiently to put him in the hospital.

foxy01 wrote: Now you may find it difficult to believe, but a lot of folks will be inclined to think this was due to Ali slowing down considerably after the 3 year lay off.

Pre ban Ali might beat prime Frazier but you are the only one here who thinks it would be an easy win for him and that's the disagreement. I tried to argue that if Chuvalo could hit (not beat) pre ban Ali then Frazier would also be able to do it since Joe was clearly the better pressure fighter. Apparently that didn't register with you at all.

foxy01 wrote:Oh and by the way, you do not have a monopoly on patronising people.

I don't feel patronized by your logical fallacy at all but if it makes you stop crying I can pretend that I am. Oops did I patronize you again?[/quote]

How is it that a thread about Marciano -v- Ali ('71) has descended into yet another Frazier -v- Ali argument?

This is been discussed so many times I've lost count.

Marciano -v- Ali ('71) was actually a good idea as I don't ever recall it being discussed that often & adding my two penneth, I'd say that Rocky was far too small to beat any version of a still capable Ali, but that's just me.

I understand how threads can veer off topic so to speak; but to veer off to such an extent that the original question is completely forgotten in a blaze of the same old arguments about Frazier & Ali is baffling.

When someone calls Ali invincible, it's inevitable.

I did a thread of this some years ago, same subject. I think the majority agreed that the 1971 Ali would have fell victim to a Marciano victory. But the 1960's Ali would have cut Marciano to ribbons, and one could argue the Ali of the '72-74 could have beaten Ali as well (strange as that sounds).

Myself you cant compare Marciano to Frazier, any more than you can compare Dempsey to Jeffries, and Jeffries to Tyson, etc. Frazier was busier and bent forward when he bobbed; Marciano just bobbed down without bending forward. Dempsey weaved more than bobbed; Jeffries crouched and then leaped at his opponents, etc.

I believe Marciano would have won a close decision over Ali. However, in a series, its hard to say. Marciano was a volume puncher while Frazier wasnt. Joe started slow and built up as time went on; Marciano started fast and kept up that same pace throughout. Dempsey started off fast, slowed in the middle rounds, and then came back to destroy you. Jeffries always stayed at one pace. Etc. etc. etc.

See where we get off in a tangent?

Now the greatest fight of all time? How about Marciano against the peak Joe Louis!

yancey wrote:

foxy01 wrote:LMAO, at the above.

That is probably K.M.hangovers whole point which I tend to agree with. The 67 version of Ali could have danced in hit Joe 3, 4 shots and be gone to bust Joe up and build a comfortable enough lead to take into the later rounds. The slower less mobile post 70 version simply couldn't.

Do you honestly think Ali was stupid enough to stand and fight Joe in their trilogy because he WANTED to? The legs to evade punches were just not there anymore. Even the version of Clay that refused to stand and trade with Liston would have given Joe nightmares, albeit that Joe was quicker on his feet and better at cutting off the ring than Sonny.

Just look at the few times Ali did dance around in the Frazier fights, frustrating Joe into standing up straight and shaking his head, beckoning Ali in. His bobbing and weaving his way in was only good when Ali was stationary, going back in straight lines, or on the ropes allowing Joe to get close and do what Joe does. His lateral movement ( Ali's ) was pretty much non existent post 70.

LMAO at the above.

Ali was all of 29 for the FOTC. The legs weren't gone.

Ali-Frazier is ALWAYS a tough fight for both men. Either COULD win. Frazier's style is made to order to always trouble the more physically gifted Ali.

No "all day long" whipping the other guy for either fighter. Anybody that believes that simply does not know what they are talking about.

how do you think Frazier would have done in 1971 if it ws he who had to sit on sidelines for 3.5 years?

scallum wrote:

yancey wrote:

foxy01 wrote:LMAO, at the above.

That is probably K.M.hangovers whole point which I tend to agree with. The 67 version of Ali could have danced in hit Joe 3, 4 shots and be gone to bust Joe up and build a comfortable enough lead to take into the later rounds. The slower less mobile post 70 version simply couldn't.

Do you honestly think Ali was stupid enough to stand and fight Joe in their trilogy because he WANTED to? The legs to evade punches were just not there anymore. Even the version of Clay that refused to stand and trade with Liston would have given Joe nightmares, albeit that Joe was quicker on his feet and better at cutting off the ring than Sonny.

Just look at the few times Ali did dance around in the Frazier fights, frustrating Joe into standing up straight and shaking his head, beckoning Ali in. His bobbing and weaving his way in was only good when Ali was stationary, going back in straight lines, or on the ropes allowing Joe to get close and do what Joe does. His lateral movement ( Ali's ) was pretty much non existent post 70.

LMAO at the above.

Ali was all of 29 for the FOTC. The legs weren't gone.

Ali-Frazier is ALWAYS a tough fight for both men. Either COULD win. Frazier's style is made to order to always trouble the more physically gifted Ali.

No "all day long" whipping the other guy for either fighter. Anybody that believes that simply does not know what they are talking about.

how do you think Frazier would have done in 1971 if it ws he who had to sit on sidelines for 3.5 years?

This is a silly argument. Ali had two tune up matches for 18 total rounds against 2 top ten contenders before fighting Frazier. He and his partners must have thought he was ready. If he was not eady, he had nobody to blame but him and his partners.

scallum wrote:

yancey wrote:

foxy01 wrote:LMAO, at the above.

That is probably K.M.hangovers whole point which I tend to agree with. The 67 version of Ali could have danced in hit Joe 3, 4 shots and be gone to bust Joe up and build a comfortable enough lead to take into the later rounds. The slower less mobile post 70 version simply couldn't.

Do you honestly think Ali was stupid enough to stand and fight Joe in their trilogy because he WANTED to? The legs to evade punches were just not there anymore. Even the version of Clay that refused to stand and trade with Liston would have given Joe nightmares, albeit that Joe was quicker on his feet and better at cutting off the ring than Sonny.

Just look at the few times Ali did dance around in the Frazier fights, frustrating Joe into standing up straight and shaking his head, beckoning Ali in. His bobbing and weaving his way in was only good when Ali was stationary, going back in straight lines, or on the ropes allowing Joe to get close and do what Joe does. His lateral movement ( Ali's ) was pretty much non existent post 70.

LMAO at the above.

Ali was all of 29 for the FOTC. The legs weren't gone.

Ali-Frazier is ALWAYS a tough fight for both men. Either COULD win. Frazier's style is made to order to always trouble the more physically gifted Ali.

No "all day long" whipping the other guy for either fighter. Anybody that believes that simply does not know what they are talking about.

how do you think Frazier would have done in 1971 if it ws he who had to sit on sidelines for 3.5 years?

For how long are you going to keep pretending Ali didnt come back and beat two of the top-ranked Heavies in the division prior to facing Frazier?

For how long are you going to keep pretending Ali didnt come back and beat two of the top-ranked Heavies in the division prior to facing Frazier? :lol

He was damn lucky to of beaten Bonavena.

Hardly.

Top contenders are not The Man Joe Frazier. Even Joe made a remark about the difference between the contenders and a Great like him who Ali would be facing

scallum wrote:Top contenders are not The Man Joe Frazier. Even Joe made a remark about the difference between the contenders and a Great like him who Ali would be facing

Its called bravado, not a confession. But at least you've acknowledged those fights happened. Good for you, you're making progress

......skipped right to page 4......they's shake hands during the refs instructions and that would be one of the few times marciano would touch him.....and i am not a great fan of ali...

dempseyfire wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YSC6XLh7fo&feature=plcp

OK, that's top notch Vegas stuff! Close your eyes, and tell me "who" you hear. That's a great vocal impersonation!