BoxRec

fans of our sport should know that archie was not a p4p all time fighter, merely an absolute original boxing legend and a great champ too. there will never be another.

I do think you can make a case for Archie being third out of these fighters after Robinson & hank in whatever order you want them. The tiers I always use would be..

Robinson, Armstrong
Moore, Pep, Louis, Ali
Leonard, Monzon
Dempsey, marciano


....and there would be another tier in between Leonard/Monzon and the Heavies, maybe two.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

vagabundo55 wrote:A little sad how nobody ever votes for Archie Moore.

You can't, Charles was his superior. He should definitely be in the top 10 and clearly accomplished more than a Bob Fiztsimmons. That should be good enough.

Oh, do you mean Ezzard who is off the list or what Charles?

I didn't think it would need specification, but just for you.....yes, Ezzard Charles.

I've been saying this for a long time, but the Heavyweights should never be entered or discussed in these types of conversations. The only two who are probably elligible are Joe Louis & Muhammad Ali.

With that said, Marciano and Dempsey didn't do enough in their careers to be on this poll.

And frankly I'm astounded that Harry Greb and Ezzard Charles names aren't up there.

Crease wrote:

And frankly I'm astounded that Harry Greb and Ezzard Charles names aren't up there.

Don't forget Langford, he's actually my answer.

Crease wrote:I've been saying this for a long time, but the Heavywnts should never be entered or discussed in these types of conversations. The only two who are probably elligible are Joe Louis & Muhammad Ali.

With that said, Marciano and Dempsey didn't do enough in their careers to be on this poll.

And frankly I'm astounded that Harry Greb and Ezzard Charles names aren't up there.

I don't think heavyweights should be ruled out just because they are heavyweights. It always cracks me up that we spend about 90% of our time discussing heavyweights, but if you bring up a heavyweight in the All-Time ratings, all of a sudden you are being crazy. 0T+
hat being said, I agree heavyweights who deserve to be in a top 10 list. No other heavyweight deserves to be in the top 20.

It is almost apples and oranges when comparing a heavyweight to say a featherweight. It's a little easier comparing a lightweight to welterweight. Maybe we should just something like: p4P, not including heavwieghts".


Still, many people really aren't concerned with presenting a case for a certain fighter. They just pick their favorites and rip the guys they don't like with any real reasoning.

Crease wrote:I've been saying this for a long time, but the Heavyweights should never be entered or discussed in these types of conversations. The only two who are probably elligible are Joe Louis & Muhammad Ali.

With that said, Marciano and Dempsey didn't do enough in their careers to be on this poll.

And frankly I'm astounded that Harry Greb and Ezzard Charles names aren't up there.

Joe Louis is right up there on any reasonable analysis.

Rocky Marciano is a very interesting case. I agree that he didnt do as much as others on teh one hand, but on the other hand, he arguably knocked out 3 of the top 10 pound for pound fighters in Charles, Moore and Louis. Obviously there were age considerations, especially for Louis, and he didnt have the career at the smaller weights, but he wasnt the bigger fighter in most of his fights with these guys, either.

Another one (although not a heavyweight) that is interesting is Monzon. Many, many people rate him the greatest middleweight ever. Many people also rate middleweight as the toughest weight division of all the weight divisions to have ever existed. Yet Monzon is very rarely ever mentioned in the top 10 of anyone.

hhhmmm..i'm sure ive seen monzon in many peoples top tens on this site

foxy01 wrote:I'm amazed Duran wasn't listed, and as such the thread can't be taken seriously.

X 2

he has to be in - arguaby the greatest lightweight of all time

Boilermaker wrote:

Crease wrote:I've been saying this for a long time, but the Heavyweights should never be entered or discussed in these types of conversations. The only two who are probably elligible are Joe Louis & Muhammad Ali.

With that said, Marciano and Dempsey didn't do enough in their careers to be on this poll.

And frankly I'm astounded that Harry Greb and Ezzard Charles names aren't up there.

Joe Louis is right up there on any reasonable analysis.

Rocky Marciano is a very interesting case. I agree that he didnt do as much as others on teh one hand, but on the other hand, he arguably knocked out 3 of the top 10 pound for pound fighters in Charles, Moore and Louis. Obviously there were age considerations, especially for Louis, and he didnt have the career at the smaller weights, but he wasnt the bigger fighter in most of his fights with these guys, either.

Another one (although not a heavyweight) that is interesting is Monzon. Many, many people rate him the greatest middleweight ever. Many people also rate middleweight as the toughest weight division of all the weight divisions to have ever existed. Yet Monzon is very rarely ever mentioned in the top 10 of anyone.

I agree that Louis should be in the top 10. If he isn't then he should be just outside of it. Some people just automatically dismiss heavyweights.

As for Marciano's big wins you have to take the circumstances into the consideration. Louis was way past it. That win means almost nothing. Any good heavyweight would have beaten Louis at that time of his career.

Charles is sort of a gray area. He was not that old (32 and 33) when he fought Marciano, but he was past his best. He had lost three fights in the previous two years. A decent win for Marciano, but not really that impressive when you compare it to some of the wins that guys in the All-Time top 10 had.

Moore may have outweighed Marciano for their fight, but Moore was a much better fighter at 175 than at heavyweight.

Regarding Monzon, as misterpunch mentioned, some people have Monzon in their top 10. I personally do.

misterpunch wrote:he has to be in - arguaby the greatest lightweight of all time

IMO Without doubt Duran is the greatest Light weight who ever stepped through the ropes

Jimmy La Bocca wrote:I agree about Duran, possibly the greatest living boxer. I'm surprised to see Willie Pep get so few votes, I would easily vote for him. Maybe lack of footage hinders his cause in the all-time P4P lists. Henry Armstrong does well on the P4P lists (rightly so) without too much footage too,I'm guessing people look at the titles he held.

It's more lack of top flight competition that hurts Pep. In fact I think a lot of us, myself included, rate him higher than perhaps his resume should place him due to his immense talent.

spudder56 wrote:

misterpunch wrote:he has to be in - arguaby the greatest lightweight of all time

IMO Without doubt Duran is the greatest Light weight who ever stepped through the ropes

Benny Leonard?

orbtastic wrote:

spudder56 wrote:

misterpunch wrote:he has to be in - arguaby the greatest lightweight of all time

IMO Without doubt Duran is the greatest Light weight who ever stepped through the ropes

Benny Leonard?

Yes Benny runs Duran a close second and was a great fighter without a shadow of a doubt but for me the skills of Benny just wouldnt be enough against the savagery of a peak Duran IMO

thats why i said arguably - i think duran gets to benny close to the final bell if duran doesnt get too frustrated hitting air for 10 rounds

I don't think Duran stops Leonard. That only happened early on and once when he was finished. Roberto couldn't put away the slick Viruet and it took him until late to finish Fernandez. I think it's a close decision either way.

Il Duce wrote:The 'Most Talented Professional Boxer of All-Time',

How can anyone argue against Sugar Ray Robinson.

I'll take Langford and greb over him. Their resumes are ridiculous. It took me many years to supplant him, but I can't overlook the massive volume from those two.

Langford beat an ATG at Lightweight, Welterweight, Middleweight, Light Heavyweight & Heavyweight. I'll start my argument there.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Il Duce wrote:The 'Most Talented Professional Boxer of All-Time',

How can anyone argue against Sugar Ray Robinson.

I'll take Langford and greb over him. Their resumes are ridiculous. It took me many years to supplant him, but I can't overlook the massive volume from those two.

Langford beat an ATG at Lightweight, Welterweight, Middleweight, Light Heavyweight & Heavyweight. I'll start my argument there.

Langford's ability to knock out guys from Lightweight all the way up to Heavyweight is freakish. Very unlikely you'll hear about anybody ever doing something like that again in boxing.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I didn't think it would need specification, but just for you.....yes, Ezzard Charles.

AKA The cincinatti cobra

misterpunch wrote:thats why i said arguably - i think duran gets to benny close to the final bell if duran doesnt get too frustrated hitting air for 10 rounds

Yes very good point

spudder56 wrote:

misterpunch wrote:thats why i said arguably - i think duran gets to benny close to the final bell if duran doesnt get too frustrated hitting air for 10 rounds

Yes very good point

He got frustrated hitting air once and it didn't take 10 rounds

gilgamesh wrote:

spudder56 wrote:

misterpunch wrote:thats why i said arguably - i think duran gets to benny close to the final bell if duran doesnt get too frustrated hitting air for 10 rounds

Yes very good point

He got frustrated hitting air once and it didn't take 10 rounds

Yes he did but I am talking about Duran at his absolute Lightweight Peak but you are right Benny would have took some catching so it would be close but I go for Duran to catch up with Benny late on

thats right - a peak (lightweight) duran is gonna chase all night, so i reckon it will eventually be curtains for the great benny leonard