BoxRec

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 12:22**

Il Duce wrote:I just think Jack Dempsey proved more from where he started in August 1914.

He was 'no' protected fighter.

Cassius Clay had the LSG calculating everything, and smartly avoided,
George Chuvalo and Eddie Machen in late-1963.

Plus, avoiding deserved rematches with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.

Plus, his Handler's cutting a 'behind-the-door' deal with Sonny Liston in {contract signing in October 1963}.

This is no way to say that Cassius Clay wasn't one of the Best Heavyweights, just 'not' the Best Heavyweight.

He gave Cooper a rematch and a chance to fight for the championship and f--ked him up even worse:

http://tinyurl.com/pxpr2fq

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 13:00**

Il Duce wrote:I'm talking about giving 'Sir' Henry Cooper a rematch in 1963.

After Henry spattered Cassius to the canvas in June 1963.

A rematch was warranted.

Remember, 'Sir Henry' was was illegally cut, when Angelo Dundee put a foreign object
on Cassius' gloves between Rounds.

And that 'delay period' to change gloves............."Saved Clay's Ass"

The delay never existed,ergo:

As to the second matter, Cooper and many, many boxing fans swear up and down to this day that the break between rounds was extended by "several minutes" in order to change Ali's gloves, and that this was a huge advantage for Ali, and may well have changed the outcome of the fight.

But in fact, those who have gone back and carefully examined film of the fight with a stopwatch report that this is almost entirely false. What actually happened is that when a new pair of gloves could not be produced in a timely fashion, the referee had to make a judgment call at to whether the lesser of the evils was to let Ali fight on with the damaged glove, or to allow a much longer break. Because of the unique circumstances that Cooper had seriously hurt Ali at the close of the preceding round, the referee decided that a delay would be more unfair in taking away what was probably Cooper's only realistic opportunity to win the fight than would the small hazard of the split glove. So Ali's glove was not in fact replaced, and the referee ordered the fight to resume.

So how long was this break between rounds that so many people insist allowed Ali several extra minutes to recover? According to the film, it was between five and six seconds longer than the usual sixty seconds. That's all. If Dundee had hoped to buy some extra time with a "trick," he had pretty much failed.

http://voices.yahoo.com/boxing-history- ... 64790.html

If you think Our 'Enry was the horse that could beat a young Clay/Ali you need a better horse.

What foreign object?

Lots of conspiracy theories surround that fight but I never heard that one. Clay was pretty much having his way with him prior to the knockdown and got cute.
I believe you have him confused with the boxer who was accused of putting plaster in his gloves and worse.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 14:15**

Il Duce wrote:Then if indeed Cassius Clay received 'only 6-Seconds' additional between Rounds.

Is that still an unfair advantage.

'6-Seconds' in Boxing is an eternity.............

'More Clay Controversy'

And if Cassius fought with a ripped Glove skin 'sharp opening' is that too an
unfair advantage.

Remember, Angelo Dundee's brother Chris Dundee was a 'Big Time' Wrestling
Promoter, with more 'props-and-gags' than Liberace had 'Glamorous Robes'.

* Split Glove
* Liniment
* Anchor Punch
* Antonio Inoki

I guarantee you, if Bruce Lee didn't die, Muhammad Ali would have been fighting
him in Hong Kong in a 'Fight To The Death Match'.

Suckers

That was the referee's choice.

Ali got up at the count of three...He got up after fifteen grueling rounds after being knocked down by Joe Frazier in the FOTC. What is there in subsequent history that suggests Ali couldn't have continued even if the round was over ?

Henry Cooper had as much chance of beating the GOAT as Henry Ford.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 14:16**

ThatOne wrote:
Il Duce wrote:Then if indeed Cassius Clay received 'only 6-Seconds' additional between Rounds.

Is that still an unfair advantage.

'6-Seconds' in Boxing is an eternity.............

'More Clay Controversy'

And if Cassius fought with a ripped Glove skin 'sharp opening' is that too an
unfair advantage.

Remember, Angelo Dundee's brother Chris Dundee was a 'Big Time' Wrestling
Promoter, with more 'props-and-gags' than Liberace had 'Glamorous Robes'.

* Split Glove
* Liniment
* Anchor Punch
* Antonio Inoki

I guarantee you, if Bruce Lee didn't die, Muhammad Ali would have been fighting
him in Hong Kong in a 'Fight To The Death Match'.

Suckers
That was the referee's choice.

Ali got up at the count of three...He got up after fifteen grueling rounds after being knocked down by Joe Frazier in the FOTC. What is there in his subsequent history that suggests he couldn't have continued even if the round wasn't over ?

I'll answer.

Nothing

Henry Cooper had as much chance of beating the GOAT as Henry Ford.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 14:27**

When I was kid I used to go to Chris Dundee wrestling promotions at the Miami Beach Convention Center . He was the GOAT promoter. One time I was playing pool at the Marco Polo Hotel in Sunny Isles and missed seeing the GOAT by minutes as him and his entourage went to see Melba Moore who was performing at the Swinger Lounge which was downstairs.

That's ok. My late mom, God Bless Her, got to see the GOAT in Orlando in 1985 and got me his autograph.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 16:42**

Il Duce...you have quite a bit of energy for these little imaginings of yours. You'll go far based on your own analysis of how important showmanship is.

And it's clear...you have quite the eye for entertainment. You do seem to think that sportsmen should have little if any investment in this dalliance.

I've always been ok with a sportsman who has matured to the point where he understands that it's ok to "sell" his sport...or himself.

I have a completely different opinion about journalists. This is an area of endeavor that should attempt to focus on empirical reality and have the discipline to impose little if any of himself into the output of his work.

You need not take offense, as of course this does not apply to the fiction writer.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 16:49**

ThatOne wrote:When I was kid I used to go to Chris Dundee wrestling promotions at the Miami Beach Convention Center . He was the GOAT promoter. One time I was playing pool at the Marco Polo Hotel in Sunny Isles and missed seeing the GOAT by minutes as him and his entourage went to see Melba Moore who was performing at the Swinger Lounge which was downstairs.

That's ok. My late mom, God Bless Her, got to see the GOAT in Orlando in 1985 and got me his autograph.

That's awesome, I'd love to have Joe Louis' autograph.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 17:02**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
ThatOne wrote:When I was kid I used to go to Chris Dundee wrestling promotions at the Miami Beach Convention Center . He was the GOAT promoter. One time I was playing pool at the Marco Polo Hotel in Sunny Isles and missed seeing the GOAT by minutes as him and his entourage went to see Melba Moore who was performing at the Swinger Lounge which was downstairs.

That's ok. My late mom, God Bless Her, got to see the GOAT in Orlando in 1985 and got me his autograph.
That's awesome, I'd love to have Joe Louis' autograph.

I can't remember if it's 85, 86. or 87. It's in storage. Muhammad Ali was at the Federal Court House in Orlando where my mom worked testifying as a character witness for one of his friends. During a break he sat in the cafeteria and signed autographs for whomever wanted one. My mom said " my son loves you" and Ali asked what's his name. He wrote to Brian, Peace, Muhammad Ali, the date, and a smiley sign.

Back to the story. When I lived In Miami Beach I literally missed Ali by seconds as he was in the longue of a hotel where I was in the game room.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 17:03**

I'd call that the second GOAT, but it's obviously arguable.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 17:15**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I'd call that the second GOAT, but it's obviously arguable.

I'm about to read Ring Of Fire about the Schmeling-Louis fight.

As you know Louis' handlers wanted him to project a proper image so they did little things like not have him boast or be seen with white women. But that didn't stop him from having a clandestine affair with Lana Turner.

He was funny. When Ali ribbed him about his "Bum Of The Month" club Louis said "you would be one of them."

I was reading this book about Ali where he went to visit Bundini Brown who was on his deathbed in Good Samaritan Hospital in Los Angeles . Ali was paying his bills at time. Brown was in a "halo'" or one of those metal contraptions that stabilize the neck after a major accident. Bundini was probably high and fell. Bundini started to cry and Ali wiped away the tears. He said " Don't cry. You're going to heaven where you will see Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, and Shorty (That's what Bundini called God). I will be joining you there one day."

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 17:17**

BoxBuzz wrote:Il Duce...you have quite a bit of energy for these little imaginings of yours. You'll go far based on your own analysis of how important showmanship is.

And it's clear...you have quite the eye for entertainment. You do seem to think that sportsmen should have little if any investment in this dalliance.

I've always been ok with a sportsman who has matured to the point where he understands that it's ok to "sell" his sport...or himself.

I have a completely different opinion about journalists. This is an area of endeavor that should attempt to focus on empirical reality and have the discipline to impose little if any of himself into the output of his work.

You need not take offense, as of course this does not apply to the fiction writer.

He does have a lively imagination and a uncanny ability to make the wildest of inferences.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 17:23**

ThatOne wrote:I'm about to read Ring Of Fire about the Schmeling-Louis fight.

Spike Lee has been trying to make a movie about that fight for years. A couple of years back, he wanted Hugh Jackman as Max and Terrence Howard as Joe. He was using Ring of Fire as source material if I'm not mistaken.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 17:32**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
ThatOne wrote:When I was kid I used to go to Chris Dundee wrestling promotions at the Miami Beach Convention Center . He was the GOAT promoter. One time I was playing pool at the Marco Polo Hotel in Sunny Isles and missed seeing the GOAT by minutes as him and his entourage went to see Melba Moore who was performing at the Swinger Lounge which was downstairs.

That's ok. My late mom, God Bless Her, got to see the GOAT in Orlando in 1985 and got me his autograph.
That's awesome, I'd love to have Joe Louis' autograph.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 17:39**

yancey wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
ThatOne wrote:When I was kid I used to go to Chris Dundee wrestling promotions at the Miami Beach Convention Center . He was the GOAT promoter. One time I was playing pool at the Marco Polo Hotel in Sunny Isles and missed seeing the GOAT by minutes as him and his entourage went to see Melba Moore who was performing at the Swinger Lounge which was downstairs.

That's ok. My late mom, God Bless Her, got to see the GOAT in Orlando in 1985 and got me his autograph.
That's awesome, I'd love to have Joe Louis' autograph.

My best friend and former business partner got Joe Frazier's autograph. I suspect you have one.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 18:17**

No, don't have Joe's autograph and sadly never met him.

I kick myself for not going to see him for the Daniels fight in New Orleans. I was a very poor college student at the time but I was only a little over a hour away and could have gone there somehow and at least seen him spar a few rounds.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 19:00**

yancey wrote:No, don't have Joe's autograph and sadly never met him.

I kick myself for not going to see him for the Daniels fight in New Orleans. I was a very poor college student at the time but I was only a little over a hour away and could have gone there somehow and at least seen him spar a few rounds.

He saw him at a autograph signing event well after his career was over.

Yancey, if I would have known I would have told him to get two...You seem like an ardent fan.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 19:24**

ThatOne wrote:
yancey wrote:No, don't have Joe's autograph and sadly never met him.

I kick myself for not going to see him for the Daniels fight in New Orleans. I was a very poor college student at the time but I was only a little over a hour away and could have gone there somehow and at least seen him spar a few rounds.

He saw him at a autograph signing event well after his career was over.

Yancey, if I would have known I would have told him to get two...You seem like an ardent fan.

Yes, Joe is my all-time favorite. First took notice of him on Wide World of Sports at the '64 Olympic Trials when he lost to Mathis and knew he was a real comer in the mid-'60s when I saw a short clip on the local news channel of the Daniels fight.

A swarmer like Joe was bound to have a relatively short peak. Just wish he would have taken Durham's advice and retired after the FOTC.

That was his mountain and he climbed it.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 20:55**

That would have been a profound changing of history. Because Foreman surprised Frazier...and Ali got to watch and learn. He even got a second helping of education by watching the Norton fight.

Without that ability to view, and assess.....not sure he goes in with a winning plan.

History would likely have been much much different.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 20:57**

Considering his game plan was letting perhaps histories greatest puncher pound on his body, I think he would have been fine.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 21:57**

Probably so Saad. I just remember how I was completely taken by surprise by the Foreman Frazier outcome.

I had seen Foreman fight Peralta...and assumed he was not all that remarkable.

But then...(as with my old brain, things come to me slow now and again,) I suppose if I had been paying closer attention to styles back then I wouldn't have puzzled over it so much.

Posted: **22 Sep 2013, 22:22**

BoxBuzz wrote:Probably so Saad. I just remember how I was completely taken by surprise by the Foreman Frazier outcome.

I had seen Foreman fight Peralta...and assumed he was not all that remarkable.

But then...(as with my old brain, things come to me slow now and again,) I suppose if I had been paying closer attention to styles back then I wouldn't have puzzled over it so much.

I can truly say I was scared as hell of the Foreman fight and not surprised, but very disappointed, when I got the bad news. I was hoping and expecting Frazier to ultimately win, but I was scared of Foreman's power and Joe's slow starts.

The uppercut that Ramos landed on Joe in their first round always bothered me and I knew Joe was walking into much greater power with Foreman.

Posted: **23 Sep 2013, 02:59**

Il Duce wrote:Go to any street corner and ask any 'Man on the Street' who Jack Dempsey was.

Then ask that man, who beat Jack Dempsey.

90 out 100 will have no clue..........

Now go back to your Lawn Moving Job at the Ali Ranch.......'Your Lunch Break is Over.

Dempsey holds no real significance to anyone today outside of those who actually follow the sport. And even those who are familiar with him generally don't rate him in the top five.

Posted: **23 Sep 2013, 08:54**

Il Duce wrote:The 'feeling' for Jack Dempsey throughout the 'Sporting World' during his
time was greater than any Boxer, ever.

And Jack had to share the spotlight with Babe Ruth.

Cassius Clay was regarded as a 'clown' and 'hype job' in 1963, and both of
his bouts with Sonny Liston were dismissed by many as 'frauds' or a 'hoax'.

During is 'first reign' he was a very good fighter over strictly 'B-List' mediocrity.

Cassius Clay never sent that type of 'awestruck' buzz through the air.

Here we go again. If Muhammad Ali was a insignificant historical figure he wouldn't have been awarded the Medal of Freedom; the United States of America's highest civilian award by President George W. Bush. He wouldn't have meetings with five sitting U S presidents from both parties, He wouldn't have met Indira Gandhi, Leonid Brezhnev, Anwar Sadat, Nelson Mandela, and Fidel Castro.

If Muhammad Ali was just some "clown" TIME Magazine wouldn't have named him one of The Twenty Most Influential Americans of All TIme:

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/25/the ... ammad-ali/

I would put him along with Malcom X and Martin Luther King as the most influential African Americans in the history of the republic.

Posted: **23 Sep 2013, 08:59**

The 20 Most Influential Americans of All Time

Few human beings have been so deified in their own time. Then again, few humans have spent so much of their own time deifying themselves. “I am the greatest!” Muhammad Ali often declared — and eventually, most people came around to share his view. Born Cassius Clay in Louisville, Ky., he was a prankster from childhood, and merriment always seemed to be bubbling just below his surface, sweetening his braggadocio with just the right amount of sugar. After earning fame by winning the gold medal in light-heavyweight boxing at the Rome Olympics in 1960, he rose quickly to the top of the pro ranks, prancing and dancing in the ring as no boxer ever had before, yet able to throw and take punches of terrific force.

By 1964, the “Louisville Lip” was the world champ. A modern-day P.T. Barnum, Clay had reached into boxing’s then tawdry backroom and dragged his sport back into the limelight, laughing all the way. But there was more to Clay than the amusing rhymes and the silly pranks, as Americans soon discovered: that year he declared himself a member of the Nation of Islam, a controversial movement that sought to empower African Americans, christening himself Muhammad Ali.

Many Americans now denounced the brash boxer as a radical, and he was even more widely vilified when he refused to join the Army as the Vietnam War escalated. “I ain’t got no quarrel with them Viet Cong” he memorably declared. He was found guilty of refusing induction into the service in 1967, and the boxing commission quickly revoked his license to fight; the U.S. Supreme Court reversed that decision in 1971.

Ali was idle for more than three years when he was at the height of his powers. Yet when he returned, he expressed no bitterness, and he still had the old magic[*]. He won back the title in 1974 by knocking out George Foreman in their fight in Zaïre — the “Rumble in the Jungle.” Another international bout, the 1975 “Thrilla in Manila,” in which he beat Joe Frazier, helped Ali become the best-known person on the planet — and, it seemed, the most beloved. In later years, his uncomplaining battle with Parkinson’s Disease further cemented his status as a global icon of courage, grace and good will.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/07/25/the ... z2fiikhXiO

Posted: **23 Sep 2013, 10:08**

Il Duce wrote:'6-Seconds' in Boxing is an eternity.

if it is a count ... yes. having 1o or 16 secs
is indeed an eternity in difference. yet if it
is prolonging the break from 6o to 66 secs ...
the eternity shrinks to about ... six seconds.
a fighter who doesn't get clear in 6o seconds
will not be clear at 66.

BoxRec

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