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Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 13:18
by p4p1
HomicideHenry wrote:p4p1 wrote:There is a lot of guys in this thread who have no idea how cutting weight works these days. Having done it and also having some very close mates who have done it let me say at 184lbs Marciano would cut to make 175 very easily and 168 is a real possibility. The guys who are very good at it use a lot of supplements and a lot of practice to rehydrate. Cutting weight is not healthy at all it is hell for your body but everyone does it now some guys much better than others. You can't tell me that someone with Marcianos will and work ethic would figure out how to become excellent at cutting weight and rehydrating properly.
Here is Marciano's weight through the years he was an amateur and professional:
Amateur Career:
Totals: 9 wins, 4 losses, 8 knockouts
Debut- Versus Harry Lester (worse possible shape) 230 pounds*
Versus Coley Wallace- 190 pounds (loses a wildly controversial decision)
*Lester was a 3x golden gloves champion; Marciano allegedly smoked two packs of Camels per day and after this fight quit all smoking, drinking, and went on a serious diet program.
Professional Career:
Totals: 49 wins, 0 losses, 43 knockouts
Debut- 192 pounds (1943)
Fought twelve times in total in 1948, the lightest he weighed was 178 pounds; on average for these bouts he weighed in at 183 pounds
1949- Fought thirteen times, the lightest he weighed was 179.4 pounds; on average for these bouts he weighed in at 183 pounds
1950- Fought six times, the lightest he weighed was 183.4 pounds, the heaviest 190.5 pounds; on average he was 187 pounds
1951- Fought seven times, the lightest he weighed was 184 pounds, the heaviest 192.5 pounds; on average he was 187 pounds
1952- Fought five times, the lightest he weighed was 184.5 pounds, the heaviest 189.8 pounds; on average he weighed 187 pounds
1953-1956: Fought six times, the lightest he weighed was 184.5, the heaviest 189 pounds; on average he weighed 187 pounds
1969 Computer Simulated Fight w/ Muhammad Ali: Marciano lost 50 pounds to do the movie; according to the film script Marciano weighed in at 195 pounds, if this be the case then Marciano in post-career life weighed as high as 245 pounds at age 45. Compare this weight listing with his amateur boxing debut weight when he was in his 20's.
Conclusion: Marciano's weight pretty much stood at Cruiserweight even at his lightest (178) in his early career, and was a small heavyweight when in the amatuers. Is it possible he could have cut more weight and made LHW or SMW? Based on results of bouts he had at his lightest, it seems to me he struggled even against mediocre opposition---- at 178 pounds he went three rounds with a 3-4 opponent, had a heck of a time with Lee Savold, etc. his energy and power seemed zapped the lighter he was. Obviously he chose to stay 187 on average because it suited him perfectly for strength, endurance, conditioning, work rate, etc.
What exactly is the conclusion though weight cutting wise' which is what the thread is about.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 13:39
by DaveyMac
Marciano would beef up today about like Adamek did. Difference is he is a far greater fighter than Adamek so he'd fight as Cruiser, Heavy, whatever he wanted to fight at.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 14:21
by palooka
There have been taller featherweights than Rocky so if he'd really trained hard he'd have made feather
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 21:31
by HomicideHenry
p4p1 wrote:
What exactly is the conclusion though weight cutting wise' which is what the thread is about.
The conclusion, or the point is, its obvious from the facts that Marciano attempted getting smaller and it just wasn't working for him. I know everybody these days is all gung ho about losing 20 pounds overnight, then rehydrating up, but those kind of practices will only get you killed---- the stats dont necessarily lie as brain injuries and ring deaths are more common in the past 20-30 years since this stupid innovation was created than it was in the day and age of same day weigh-in's.
The greatest conditioned heavyweight of all time, was at his weakest at 178 pounds; in civilian life Marciano weighed as much as 245. That's the same weight of a fight night ready Klitschko brother. At 190 pounds or close to it Marciano was a tad bit sluggish. Sure the power was there, sure the ferocity was there, but something was off when he was that high in weight. No, 187 pounds was where he was perfect at---- and it took Marciano a long hard training camp to maintain that physical perfection for him. I dont think Marciano, if even given the chance, would dehydrate/rehydrate and cut weight the same way fighters do today because it would be half assed. Marciano made up his mind a long time before winning the title, that in order to be great he would have to do twice as much as his opponents were doing. What you all are speculating about, whether he would cut weight to be a LHW or SMW today is madness---- its clear from the evidence that Marciano in his early career pursued that avenue and it wasnt working for him; he was overtrained. I'm sure all the talk back then that he was 'too small' to make a heavyweight effected his training camps, which is why he got as low as 178 at times. Losing an extra 3-4 pounds would have been madness.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 21:36
by HomicideHenry
Let's put it this way, if Marciano was 187 pounds at his peak condition; in between camps he had to of went back up to at least 200 pounds---- so that meant he had to get down 13 pounds---- what you're asking him to do would be to lose 25 pounds (LHW) or even 33 pounds (SMW). That's pushing it beyond human limits and strain---- unless someone used illegal drugs. And even then it is still extremely dangerous.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 21:40
by gilgamesh
HomicideHenry wrote:Let's put it this way, if Marciano was 187 pounds at his peak condition; in between camps he had to of went back up to at least 200 pounds---- so that meant he had to get down 13 pounds---- what you're asking him to do would be to lose 25 pounds (LHW) or even 33 pounds (SMW). That's pushing it beyond human limits and strain---- unless someone used illegal drugs. And even then it is still extremely dangerous.
Guys DO lose that kinda weight, but they're certainly shouldn't. I don't see any chance that he would've competed at 168, he was pretty heavily muscled in the mid 180's.
Light Heavyweight is a slight stretch, but I think he could pull it off and in this day and age probably would.
Cruiserweight would be ideal for him though. It's more his natural weight when he's in peak shape.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 21:49
by HomicideHenry
gilgamesh wrote:HomicideHenry wrote:Let's put it this way, if Marciano was 187 pounds at his peak condition; in between camps he had to of went back up to at least 200 pounds---- so that meant he had to get down 13 pounds---- what you're asking him to do would be to lose 25 pounds (LHW) or even 33 pounds (SMW). That's pushing it beyond human limits and strain---- unless someone used illegal drugs. And even then it is still extremely dangerous.
Guys DO lose that kinda weight, but they're certainly shouldn't. I don't see any chance that he would've competed at 168, he was pretty heavily muscled in the mid 180's.
Light Heavyweight is a slight stretch, but I think he could pull it off and in this day and age probably would.
Cruiserweight would be ideal for him though. It's more his natural weight when he's in peak shape.
I tend to agree. I just know too much of Marciano to know that he wouldn't go into a fight unless he knew 100% that he was going to win---- cutting that kind of weight would have made him very weak and potentially sick. He wouldnt of went into a fight like that. 187 was the happy medium he found for him to have his best successes. I know its hard for people to believe--- but you would have been more likely to of seen Jack Dempsey at 175 pounds than Marciano, because even in civilian life Dempsey never was no 245-250 pounds. Dempsey started off as a LHW anyways, and when he fought Willard was 187 pounds. And that was the version who was finally getting food on a regular basis and money in his pocket, and a great training camp. No, Marciano was bigger in some aspects than people seem to realise.
As for modern guys, I know they lose that kind of weight but I don't find it humanly possible without the aid of illegal drugs---- take my debut opponent J'Leon Love for example; on the scales he read 168 and was bone dry, on fight night he was 195. That's 27 pounds overnight. I thought maybe it was just great training, etc until I researched into it. It just isnt possible without risking water loss around the brain. Then, of course, he later tested positive for an illegal diuretic drug when he failed to make weight.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 09 Oct 2013, 15:06
by Nile4000
Rocky would have been a definite cruiserweight.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 11 Oct 2013, 09:19
by Ezzard
A lot of these Light heavies are 190+ in the ring... If Marciano could make that 175 without losing any stamina he'd have done it.
12 rounds would be a disadvantage for him.
Interesting that Rocky is too small for most of us in the many fantasy match ups with Heavies since Liston. But if he were fighting Light-heavies since the weigh-in rule change... I'm not sure I'd back any to beat him.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 11 Oct 2013, 13:38
by IKSRTFO
palooka wrote:There have been taller featherweights than Rocky so if he'd really trained hard he'd have made feather
But I'm sure they didn't have his build. Diego Corrales was taller but had a very small build.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 12 Oct 2013, 10:53
by palooka
IKSRTFO wrote:palooka wrote:There have been taller featherweights than Rocky so if he'd really trained hard he'd have made feather
But I'm sure they didn't have his build. Diego Corrales was taller but had a very small build.
Cheers pal
- I was being a bit faceitious after reading that Rocky had chubby legs; I think he'd have been a very solid cruiser; Rocky and Ezzard Charles would have been cruiser champs for a decade.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 18:28
by Senya13
How weight reduction was being done by boxers in 1911.
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... -1/seq-41/
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 18 Oct 2013, 18:53
by Cap
Marciano was 5'10". Dwight Braxton, a success at cruiserweight, is listed as 5' 5 1/2". Marciano would be a cruiserweight today.