How do you rate Tyson's win over Holmes?

[drunkenpiper36]

Bright's corner advice was as good as anything Rooney would've said

I disagree. When Douglas was popping his jab off on Tyson like there was no tomorrow, Aaron Snowel simply said " you're not closing the gap." There were no suggestions to go to the body, slip the jab, or cut of the ring. All the while, they were treating his swelling with a dissolved bag of water, instead of ice, or preferably and inswell device. Angelo Dundee and Gil Clancy were interviewed a few weeks after the fight to give their take on the corner work of Tyson, and neither of them had much nice to say. Angelo at one point even said " he had his head down between rounds, and if I were in there I would have slapped him across the face and said KEEP YOUR HEAD UP, YOU"RE A WORLD CHAMPION!!"

[Controversial]

If you honestly think that Tyson was at his physical peak, just because of what he weighed, then you don't understand boxing.

I agree, being at his normal fighting weight means nothing. Weight doesn't win you the fight, your mental focus and how you perform wins you the fight and neither were there for Tyson that night. I'm sure with enough training Tyson could get down to 220lb right now, it means nothing in isolation.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't think that he meant that just because he weighed 220 he was in grreat shape. I think he was just mentioning that he weighed 220 and seem to be in the same shape that he was typically at.

He seemed to me to be physically in the same shape as he typically was. I don't think it was his best performance; he was better in his fights vs Tubbs, Spinks, Holmes, Berbick etc. however, he performed about as well as he did against Tucker, Tillis, and Smith.

Normally, he still would have won. It was a combination of him being a little off, and Douglas having the best fight of his career.

I think it bugs some people to hear the "past his prime" excuse. There is no legitimate reason for that. You really could use that excuse for just about everyone.
didn't have the same trainer? Most fighters don't have the same trainer for their entire career.
They deal with it.

It never ceases to amaze me that people use lame excuses for the rare time a great fighter loses, yet they never seem to mention that sometimes the opponents they beat weren't at their best. Pretty sure Tony Tubbs, Tevor Berbick etc. don't think they had their best fight when they fought Tyson.

[drunkenpiper36]

A boxer's ideal weight does not necessarily reflect ideal conditioning. His timing, reflexes or even cardio vascular stamina could be compromised If he's neglected certain areas of his training. And that does not even begin to address his mental state or tactical preparedness.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't disagree with his post, it just disagrees with others he has made. There is a difference between being in shape and your weight. Especially world class athletic shape. It's just funny when you look back.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It was a solid win, Larry was more formidable when he fought Evander and even McCall.

How was he more formidable? Not sure how a 45 year old Holmes was any better than he was at 38 especially being as he was heavier as well?

Case in point.

Keith goes off on anybody that says Duran wasn't motivated or in shape for leonard II and yet anyone that disagrees with him about Tokyo is an idiot.

The shit in here is comic gold.

[Controversial]

Tyson wasn't shot, he just underestimated Buster and didn't prepare or fight right. He might have been at his fighting weight but he wasn't his normal self and it lost him the fight. That coupled with Buster fighting a great fight and being in great shape mentally and physically.

The loss however certainly took something away from Tyson and smashed the air of invincibility that won him so many fights.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nah, he just got beat up. How do you know he wasn't in fighting shape past not being able to fathom that he could lose in his prime? Larry Holmes was in better shape against Tyson than he was later because he weighed less. Don't you see the contradiction?

I really find it hard to believe a guy in poor physical condition could take that much punishment. As for the mental excuse, that's equally bung. Buster's mother died.

[BoxBuzz]

Saad...the mental one is a great debate aint it? It's at the very least a wash. However I do think in the case of Buster, he was able to take that pain and forge it into a mission. But others might feel it would take him off his game.....so that can't be considered too much of a plus if at all for Buster.

Generally speaking, It would seem to me that the Death of your Mom has to trump just being generally immature and overly egotistical on any given day.

[drunkenpiper36]

We can go back and forth about this forever ( as many already have over the past 23 years. ) Rather than arguing about who was out of shape, missing their trainer or getting visits from little green men, I am going to simplify it by saying that it was a rare case of one man giving the best performance of his career while the other gave his worst. Tyson vs Douglas is not a fight that can be used to accurately sum up what types of fighters either of these men were on an average night in their careers.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't see much of a debate, Tyson got his ass kicked in his prime in an upset so big that people are still trying to come up with reasons why it wasn't legitimate. Nobody thought Douglas could win going in, and that was a better time when 20 or 30 of my friends were into Boxing. In the fourth round I exclaimed that he was going to win. Mike had nothing for him but his fighting heart.

[BoxBuzz]

Yeah.....It's too much for some to accept that shyt happens. And yet.....we all produce it every damn day.

The shyt that happens....is actually par for the course...lol.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

One thing I will say about Mike, he and Hearns were the two most dramatic fighters I've witnessed in my lifetime. Even in a mismatch you were on the edge of your seat for a Tyson fight. Throughout his career.

[BoxBuzz]

Hearns even more so for me.....He may not win, but he came to fight....and his ring IQ was higher....he could take a step back....and decide to attempt a defense strategy if absolutely need be in pursuit of a win. And he could switch back to cave your head in on a dime when/if the moment presented itself. He actually had a transmission with a useable reverse.

Not so much with Mike.

[Controversial]

It was reported in the press before the Buster fight that Tyson was having balance problems and took a 5 day break from sparring. It was reported Berbick was regularly catching him in sparring and Tyson was struggling to throw combinations. He had sparred just 30 rounds in two weeks running up to the fight and was dropped by Page as well.

Rooney said. ''But it shows you Mike's got a bunch of amateurs around him.''

''Mike's calling all the shots,'' Rooney said. ''He doesn't respect Bright or Snowell or Don King. He just wants to be paid. He's slowly been slipping. He's losing his interest.''

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Hearns even more so for me.....He may not win, but he came to fight....and his ring IQ was higher....he could take a step back....and decide to attempt a defense strategy if absolutely need be in pursuit of a win. And he could switch back to cave your head in on a dime when/if the moment presented itself. He actually had a transmission with a useable reverse.

Not so much with Mike.

Oh, Hearns was a much, much greater fighter. I don't think anybody would rate Mike in his class, but Tyson did bring drama to the ring. It's a shame he could never learn how to fight on the inside instead of throwing one or two programmed combos and happily holding. He could have been what people think he was if he could have done that.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It was reported in the press before the Buster fight that Tyson was having balance problems and took a 5 day break from sparring. It was reported Berbick was regularly catching him in sparring and Tyson was struggling to throw combinations. He had sparred just 30 rounds in two weeks running up to the fight and was dropped by Page as well.

Rooney said. ''But it shows you Mike's got a bunch of amateurs around him.''

''Mike's calling all the shots,'' Rooney said. ''He doesn't respect Bright or Snowell or Don King. He just wants to be paid. He's slowly been slipping. He's losing his interest.''

Yeah, the press or fighters camps never crank out information to build hype for a fight without it.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Not that he couldn't have had a bad camp. It happens all the time, that doesn't mean your prime is over. Mike lost to the better man, period.

[keithmoonhangover]

It was reported in the press before the Buster fight that Tyson was having balance problems and took a 5 day break from sparring. It was reported Berbick was regularly catching him in sparring and Tyson was struggling to throw combinations. He had sparred just 30 rounds in two weeks running up to the fight and was dropped by Page as well.

Rooney said. ''But it shows you Mike's got a bunch of amateurs around him.''

''Mike's calling all the shots,'' Rooney said. ''He doesn't respect Bright or Snowell or Don King. He just wants to be paid. He's slowly been slipping. He's losing his interest.''

Yeah, the press or fighters camps never crank out information to build hype for a fight without it.

We get it Saad, you know best. When faced with facts and opinions of those closest to the actual fighters, an internet poster, armed with just his opinion, discards everything else as hearsay and tell us all what really happened. Bravo!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Yes, KeithMoon, Controversial and random press reports are certainly facts. I have to applaud you, this thread is one of your most embarrassing displays in a posting tenure full of them. At least my opinions are consistent, yours never are.

And yes, I know best in a debate with the likes of you. You got that right.

[keithmoonhangover]

Yes, KeithMoon, Controversial and random press reports are certainly facts. I have to applaud you, this thread is one of your most embarrassing displays in a posting tenure full of them. At least my opinions are consistent, yours never are.

And yes, I know best in a debate with the likes of you. You got that right.

You're just so damn good at this posting lark. Your opinions are always so well thought out and your posts are never ever wrong. I love the way you remain so unbiased and how you always behave so level headed. Very impressive.

[Controversial]

"I was out of shape, more or less, 'Tyson said'. "I let myself get too heavy before the fight. I lost 25 pounds in Japan, in the last month before the fight. It was too much. I was training hard and just not eating. But really, I wasn't worried going into the fight because I'd done it before and still won.

"When I beat (Jose) Ribalta, (Tony) Tucker and (Tony) Tubbs, I wasn't in great shape either. But I still beat those guys. I guess I figured it would work every time. So I fell into sloppy habits.

"This time, though, I picked the wrong opponent to do that with. I don't mean to tear down Douglas because he was prepared to fight me and did a good job, but he didn't beat Mike Tyson. He beat an out-of-shape guy who didn't prepare properly.

"That won't happen again. I'm still convinced that when I'm right, I'm the best fighter in the world, that no one can beat me"

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That's a bunch of excuses, most fighters need them.

[keithmoonhangover]

"I was out of shape, more or less, 'Tyson said'. "I let myself get too heavy before the fight. I lost 25 pounds in Japan, in the last month before the fight. It was too much. I was training hard and just not eating. But really, I wasn't worried going into the fight because I'd done it before and still won.

"When I beat (Jose) Ribalta, (Tony) Tucker and (Tony) Tubbs, I wasn't in great shape either. But I still beat those guys. I guess I figured it would work every time. So I fell into sloppy habits.

"This time, though, I picked the wrong opponent to do that with. I don't mean to tear down Douglas because he was prepared to fight me and did a good job, but he didn't beat Mike Tyson. He beat an out-of-shape guy who didn't prepare properly.

"That won't happen again. I'm still convinced that when I'm right, I'm the best fighter in the world, that no one can beat me"

Tyson is wrong, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Saad knows better.