Arcel and Steward said Ray Robinson was protected

[raylawpc]

Robinson WAS NEVER A GREAT INSIDE FIGHTER. He could not block punches like the guys above. And it seems to me when in crisis, did not had a plan B.

Can you point us to some specific fights so that we can take a look for ourselves?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He sure won a lot of rematches for a guy with no plan B.

[Ambling Alp II]

Who were the top middleweights when Robinson was a full time middleweight in the 1950s? LaMotta (white), Basilio (white), Fullmer (white), and Turpin (mixed heritage). Robinson fought them all at least twice. At the time there just happened to be a lot of good white middleweights.

He fought Gavilan (who was black) twice at welterweight.

Often Fighter A would like to fight another guy, but the Fighter B already has a fight lined up with Fighter C. By the time Fighter B is available, Fighter A has a fight lined up with fighter D. This happens all the time, especially in a period of great depth.

If a fighter isn't in the same weight class as another fighter for a long time, it's not legitimate to say one guy was ducking the other.

Boxing was full go corruption in that era. Was it just co-incidence that all top middleweights were white and the decent black fighters weren't given title shots? Personally I think its a bit short sighted to think there wasn't an element of 'picking' going on. We can all make excuses why certain fights never came off however it seems odd to me that Robinson never fought any great black fighters at middleweight. It certainly wasn't because there wasn't any to fight.

I agree that there was a lot of corruption in that era.
However, who specifically were the great black middleweights during this era that Robinson didn't fight?

[Crease]

Robinson WAS NEVER A GREAT INSIDE FIGHTER. He could not block punches like the guys above. And it seems to me when in crisis, did not had a plan B.

Stuff like this is why opinions are getting ridiculed. It's quite obvious that Robinson could and did block punches.

And Robinson could fight on the inside quite effectively - evidence of that is that you don't stay in the ring for all of those rounds against LaMotta if you couldn't handle yourself on the inside.

Just because Ray has different qualities and attributes which are considered his "best strengths" doesn't meaning to say that his inside fighting was no good.

[Controversial]

I agree that there was a lot of corruption in that era.
However, who specifically were the great black middleweights during this era that Robinson didn't fight?

Charley Burley, Cocoa Kid (who dropped SRR in sparring) and Bert Lytell off the top of my head

[Chuck1052]

It is absurd to put Sugar Ray Robinson's so-called avoidance of Charley Burley on the same level as Jack Dempsey avoiding Harry Wills. During the 1940s, there was very little controversy about Robinson not fighting Burley, but there were reams of copy and lots of angst about Dempsey not fighting Wills during the 1920s.

- Chuck Johnston

[elmersalsa]

Robinson WAS NEVER A GREAT INSIDE FIGHTER. He could not block punches like the guys above. And it seems to me when in crisis, did not had a plan B.

Stuff like this is why opinions are getting ridiculed. It's quite obvious that Robinson could and did block punches.

And Robinson could fight on the inside quite effectively - evidence of that is that you don't stay in the ring for all of those rounds against LaMotta if you couldn't handle yourself on the inside.

Just because Ray has different qualities and attributes which are considered his "best strengths" doesn't meaning to say that his inside fighting was no good.

Robinson was never a great inside fighter. Never seen him in a toe to toe exchange.

[elmersalsa]

He sure won a lot of rematches for a guy with no plan B.

He won with speed and strength. He was always faster than the other guy.

The Randy Turpin rematch, he fought in desperation. The referee was going to stop the fight.
The Gene Fullmer rematch, Fullmer got caught with a perfect punch.

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree that there was a lot of corruption in that era.
However, who specifically were the great black middleweights during this era that Robinson didn't fight?

Charley Burley, Cocoa Kid (who dropped SRR in sparring) and Bert Lytell off the top of my head

Robinson didn't move up to middleweight full time until 1951.
Burley last fight was in 1950.
Cocoa Kids' was in 1948.
It was Lytell's last year. By then he was really a light heavyweight anyway.

Yes, Robinson could have fought every top middleweight back in the 1940s when he was a welterweight. However, you could do that with every fighter (excluding heavyweights ) whoever lived.

Are we going to rip Marvin Hagler for not fighting Michael Spinks?
Did Kid Gavilan beat all the top middleweights when he was a welterweight?

Burley, Cocoa Kid, and Lytell themselves didn't fight all the light heavy weights when they were middleweights. Are we going to rip them for that?

[raylawpc]

Robinson WAS NEVER A GREAT INSIDE FIGHTER. He could not block punches like the guys above. And it seems to me when in crisis, did not had a plan B.

Stuff like this is why opinions are getting ridiculed. It's quite obvious that Robinson could and did block punches.

And Robinson could fight on the inside quite effectively - evidence of that is that you don't stay in the ring for all of those rounds against LaMotta if you couldn't handle yourself on the inside.

Just because Ray has different qualities and attributes which are considered his "best strengths" doesn't meaning to say that his inside fighting was no good.

Terrific post.

[elmersalsa]

Robinson WAS NEVER A GREAT INSIDE FIGHTER. He could not block punches like the guys above. And it seems to me when in crisis, did not had a plan B.

Stuff like this is why opinions are getting ridiculed. It's quite obvious that Robinson could and did block punches.

And Robinson could fight on the inside quite effectively - evidence of that is that you don't stay in the ring for all of those rounds against LaMotta if you couldn't handle yourself on the inside.

Just because Ray has different qualities and attributes which are considered his "best strengths" doesn't meaning to say that his inside fighting was no good.

Terrific post.

Terrific about what?

[Controversial]

I agree that there was a lot of corruption in that era.
However, who specifically were the great black middleweights during this era that Robinson didn't fight?

Charley Burley, Cocoa Kid (who dropped SRR in sparring) and Bert Lytell off the top of my head

Robinson didn't move up to middleweight full time until 1951.
Burley last fight was in 1950.
Cocoa Kids' was in 1948.
It was Lytell's last year. By then he was really a light heavyweight anyway.

Yes, Robinson could have fought every top middleweight back in the 1940s when he was a welterweight. However, you could do that with every fighter (excluding heavyweights ) whoever lived.

Are we going to rip Marvin Hagler for not fighting Michael Spinks?
Did Kid Gavilan beat all the top middleweights when he was a welterweight?

Burley, Cocoa Kid, and Lytell themselves didn't fight all the light heavy weights when they were middleweights. Are we going to rip them for that?

We are going around in circles, all these points have been addressed. SRR fought a full blown 158lb middleweight in LaMotta in 1942 and in all their rematches. SRR fought many guys at middleweight whilst still officially a 'welterweight' and fought as a 157lb middleweight himself in 1946. Burley also fought at 157lb in 1946.

Cocoa Kid was yo-yoing between welterweight and middleweight as early as 1942

SRR had over 200 fights over a very lengthy career, he had many non-title fights against bigger guys yet managed to not fight any recognised world class black middleweights. Even if he had to give weight away it never bothered SRR against LaMotta or Maxim so why is the weight such an issue when it comes to these other fighters?

Seems odd to me how SRRs team managed to miss all these fighters.

[raylawpc]

Stuff like this is why opinions are getting ridiculed. It's quite obvious that Robinson could and did block punches.

And Robinson could fight on the inside quite effectively - evidence of that is that you don't stay in the ring for all of those rounds against LaMotta if you couldn't handle yourself on the inside.

Just because Ray has different qualities and attributes which are considered his "best strengths" doesn't meaning to say that his inside fighting was no good.

Terrific post.

Terrific about what?

I thought it was more polite to put "terrific post" on his, than "sucky post" on yours . . .

[Chuck1052]

Take a look at how many times Charley Burley fought in New York City. Yes, it was only one time when he knocked out Phil McQuillan at San Nicholas Arena on April 20, 1942. In other words, Burley NEVER had a bout at Madison Square Garden, the Polo Grounds, Yankee Stadium or Ebbets Field.

He also didn't fight at Chicago Stadium (Chicago), Comiskey Park (Chicago), Wrigley Field (Chicago), Briggs Stadium (Detroit), the Olympia (Detroit), Shibe Park (Philadelphia). Burley did fight at Forbes Field (Pittsburgh), Crosley Field (Cincinnati), the Coliseum (Chicago) and Boston Garden (Boston) and Convention Hall (Philadelphia), but generally did not fight at venues which had the biggest gates of the period.

I am not trying to say that Sugar Ray Robinson didn't consider the business angle before fighting someone, especially a heavier opponent. In fact, I am say that he and many other top fighters did do it. The simple fact is that professional boxing has been a business during its entire history. Under the circumstances, I am not surprised that a top fighter such as Burley had trouble getting bouts with the best drawing cards of his day, especially when he himself was not that good of a drawing card.

- Chuck Johnston

[Controversial]

I agree Burley didn't pull in the big crowds, but that was more to do with that fact that he couldn't get a big name to fight him and he was forced to fight when he could. I'm sure if he fought SRR in NYC there would've been interest, he was a top 10 ranked fighter after all. Not all his bouts were boring points wins, he went 20-0 (15 KOs) at one point so he was knocking many people out.

Also SRR fought many non-title fights against unknown and unranked opponents so presumably the money wasn't an issue in these instances.

If you open the debate up to other good black fighters SRR didn't fight then these arguments hold less credence.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He sure won a lot of rematches for a guy with no plan B.

He won with speed and strength. He was always faster than the other guy.

The Randy Turpin rematch, he fought in desperation. The referee was going to stop the fight.
The Gene Fullmer rematch, Fullmer got caught with a perfect punch.

Speed and strength that made him a poor in-fighter?

[Chuck1052]

Notice that Archie Moore was getting more marquee bouts and making far more money with the advent of television. Of course, Moore retired when he was well over forty years old during the early 1960s. Would Burley have got more marquee bouts if he also fought well into the 1950s or even as late as the early 1960s?

- Chuck Johnston

[Ambling Alp II]

The points about Robinson avoiding top black contenders have not been addressed very well.
Cocoa Kid was only a ranked welterweight contender in 1941 and 1942. Not surprising that they never fought in that short of a period of a time.
Burley and Robinson were only ranked in the same weight class for 1941. Even less surprising that they never fought.

Yes Robinson did fight LaMotta 5 times before he went for the middleweight title. Yes LaMotta was a middleweight and was white. However, they were both big draws and the rivalry was a natural.
It never bothered him to move up in weight when he fought white fighters? It's not that cut and dry. He never fought Tony Zale or Marcel Cerdan who were white. Never fought Graziano who was white when he was still a welterweight.

He did fight several black contenders when he was a welterweight: Henry Armstrong, Jimmy Doyle, Tommy Bell, Kid Gavilan.

You can always find a good fighter that someone missed out on. Doesn't mean they ducked them. Pick any other fighter, and I will tell you who they missed.

[Controversial]

Of course you can't fight everyone. If Burley was the only top black fighter SRR missed then I'd agree that the fight just never came about. However to have such a long career with as many fights as SRR had and not fight any of these guys seems strange to me. Does it not seem odd that all the top black welterweights and middleweights would fight each other several times, often having to give weight away (some even fighting guys like LaMotta) yet SRR didn't fight any of them with the exception of Wade who was well past his best.

[Tomasino]

The points about Robinson avoiding top black contenders have not been addressed very well.
Cocoa Kid was only a ranked welterweight contender in 1941 and 1942. Not surprising that they never fought in that short of a period of a time.
Burley and Robinson were only ranked in the same weight class for 1941. Even less surprising that they never fought.

Yes Robinson did fight LaMotta 5 times before he went for the middleweight title. Yes LaMotta was a middleweight and was white. However, they were both big draws and the rivalry was a natural.
It never bothered him to move up in weight when he fought white fighters? It's not that cut and dry. He never fought Tony Zale or Marcel Cerdan who were white. Never fought Graziano who was white when he was still a welterweight.

He did fight several black contenders when he was a welterweight: Henry Armstrong, Jimmy Doyle, Tommy Bell, Kid Gavilan.

You can always find a good fighter that someone missed out on. Doesn't mean they ducked them. Pick any other fighter, and I will tell you who they missed.

Sam Langford?

Harry Greb?

[Crease]

Sam Langford?

Well, just to get the ball rolling on this one - Langford never fought Mike McTigue or Tommy Loughran.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Sam Langford?

Well, just to get the ball rolling on this one - Langford never fought Mike McTigue or Tommy Loughran.

Harry Greb never fought Sam Langford.

[Ambling Alp II]

Greb didn't fight Jack Delaney, Young Stribling, Paul Berlanbach, or Georges Carpentier.
Langford didn't fight Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, or Georges Carpentier.

There were several contenders that weren't as good as those guys that Langford and Greb didn't fight.

You wonder what these guys were doing all those years.

Really don't understand Robinson getting criticized for not fighting every black contender in his own weight class and the weight class above him.
Why would Robinson be afraid of Bert Lytell or Cocoa Kid? He many several fighters (black and white) that were better than them. He beat several fighters that were about even with Burley.

Yes he fought some white fighters that were bigger than him. There are many more white fighters bigger than him that he didn't fight. It's quite a leap to criticize him for finding black fighters a weight class above him that he didn't fight.

[elmersalsa]

Of course you can't fight everyone. If Burley was the only top black fighter SRR missed then I'd agree that the fight just never came about. However to have such a long career with as many fights as SRR had and not fight any of these guys seems strange to me. Does it not seem odd that all the top black welterweights and middleweights would fight each other several times, often having to give weight away (some even fighting guys like LaMotta) yet SRR didn't fight any of them with the exception of Wade who was well past his best.

You could not say much better, my brother. Congratulations.

[Crease]

Of course you can't fight everyone. If Burley was the only top black fighter SRR missed then I'd agree that the fight just never came about. However to have such a long career with as many fights as SRR had and not fight any of these guys seems strange to me. Does it not seem odd that all the top black welterweights and middleweights would fight each other several times, often having to give weight away (some even fighting guys like LaMotta) yet SRR didn't fight any of them with the exception of Wade who was well past his best.

Okay, let's get in to specifics here. I'm willing to go on along with you on this. Which top black Middleweight fighters did Robinson avoid? And Ray won the Middleweight title five times from 1951-60, so let's focus in on those years.

Without being cheeky or argumentative, you have criticised others for not agreeing with you. So take this opportunity here to make a strong case for yourself. We know that you agre going to say Charley Burley - but who else?