BoxRec

Dempsey was more American folklore than great fighter and I'm no Dempsey hater.

He was tough and hit very hard but he lost his dedication to boxing early on.

Knocking down Ali is in the realm of possibility, hell Sonny Banks and Cooper did. But Ali by very easy unanimous decision.

pedrog60 wrote: Dempsey fought in a very weak era and avoided al Black Fighters, which makes his record look more overrated than what it actually is.

Ali outboxes him, having the endurance advantage as well, and very well could stop him in cuts or simply exhaust Dempsey and knock him out somewhere between the 6 and 9 rounds, if it goes past that, its only a matter of time until Dempsey quits or his cordner throws the towel.

Not a Dempsey hater, but this as much accurate as you can get, sorry.

- You should be sorry for such slop in the 3rd millennium.

Most of his record out west, yet he still managed to squeeze in a couple of the few black fighters available. He was famously defrauded in 3 week/3 fights stint in NYC while sleeping on park benches and eating at soup kitchens, yet still fought a classic with JLJohnson, a fringe black contender. Rode outta town on the rails with 3 busted ribs before hooking up with kearns for his rise to the top. Make Ali look like a pansy in that regard. Jack Johnson was the one who ducked 4 prime HOF black contenders when he won his belt, so not surprising that you've clearly confused your Jacks.

Dempsey ditched rickard and kearns to sign twice against wills but the national politics killed that bout. Dempsey never cut either and his foot speed and hands as fast as Ali with power off the shelf.

I've seen most all Ali fights and he has more fleas on his mangy record than you can count. In 6 oz horsehides, prime to prime dempsey's was the style Joe Frazier used to whomped Ali a new one.

No problem anyone picking Ali, but do they have to lie about Jack to do it, that or just sheer dummified ignorance.

A prime Dempsey was one of the greatest fighting machines of all time... His unbelievable chin, savagery, and punching power made him the biggest box office draw in the History of Boxing. His Tunney fights attracting bigger gates and higher attendance than any fights up until the 1970s.. He was a tremendous left hooker and infighter who was impossible for bigger, taller Heavyweights to tie up effectively. Ali would have beaten the Dempsey who faced Tunney -- after all, Dempsey asked for those fights to be limited to 10 rounds.. That is something Tunney reluctantly agreed to in order t secure the matches.

The prime Dempsey was the swashbuckling savage of the Morris, Fulton, Miske, Brennan, and Willard fights before he got rich and soft. That Dempsey would have beaten any Ali. Asked why he took 3 years off during the height of his Heavyweight Championship reign, Dempsey said he had no love for Boxing as a science or art. Money and soft living took away his lust for battle, which is what drove him his entire career before he became champion. He would feel it again in training camp, sparring, and actual title defenses -- but the hunger, burning desire, and sheer brutality were greatly diminished. He knew he would never be the same.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

pedrog60 wrote: Dempsey fought in a very weak era and avoided al Black Fighters, which makes his record look more overrated than what it actually is.

Ali outboxes him, having the endurance advantage as well, and very well could stop him in cuts or simply exhaust Dempsey and knock him out somewhere between the 6 and 9 rounds, if it goes past that, its only a matter of time until Dempsey quits or his cordner throws the towel.

Not a Dempsey hater, but this as much accurate as you can get, sorry.

- You should be sorry for such slop in the 3rd millennium.

Most of his record out west, yet he still managed to squeeze in a couple of the few black fighters available. He was famously defrauded in 3 week/3 fights stint in NYC while sleeping on park benches and eating at soup kitchens, yet still fought a classic with JLJohnson, a fringe black contender. Rode outta town on the rails with 3 busted ribs before hooking up with kearns for his rise to the top. Make Ali look like a pansy in that regard. Jack Johnson was the one who ducked 4 prime HOF black contenders when he won his belt, so not surprising that you've clearly confused your Jacks.

Dempsey ditched rickard and kearns to sign twice against wills but the national politics killed that bout. Dempsey never cut either and his foot speed and hands as fast as Ali with power off the shelf.

I've seen most all Ali fights and he has more fleas on his mangy record than you can count. In 6 oz horsehides, prime to prime dempsey's was the style Joe Frazier used to whomped Ali a new one.

No problem anyone picking Ali, but do they have to lie about Jack to do it, that or just sheer dummified ignorance.

You are still trying to ignore the fact that Ali is 40 pounds heavier, 2 inches taller and has several inches on reach above dempsey, despite being way more skilful and having an iron chin.

Dont be delusional, dempsey was good, for that time, i dont even think he could survive a Joe Frazier s left hook to the body.

pedrog60 wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

pedrog60 wrote: Dempsey fought in a very weak era and avoided al Black Fighters, which makes his record look more overrated than what it actually is.

Ali outboxes him, having the endurance advantage as well, and very well could stop him in cuts or simply exhaust Dempsey and knock him out somewhere between the 6 and 9 rounds, if it goes past that, its only a matter of time until Dempsey quits or his cordner throws the towel.

Not a Dempsey hater, but this as much accurate as you can get, sorry.

- You should be sorry for such slop in the 3rd millennium.

Most of his record out west, yet he still managed to squeeze in a couple of the few black fighters available. He was famously defrauded in 3 week/3 fights stint in NYC while sleeping on park benches and eating at soup kitchens, yet still fought a classic with JLJohnson, a fringe black contender. Rode outta town on the rails with 3 busted ribs before hooking up with kearns for his rise to the top. Make Ali look like a pansy in that regard. Jack Johnson was the one who ducked 4 prime HOF black contenders when he won his belt, so not surprising that you've clearly confused your Jacks.

Dempsey ditched rickard and kearns to sign twice against wills but the national politics killed that bout. Dempsey never cut either and his foot speed and hands as fast as Ali with power off the shelf.

I've seen most all Ali fights and he has more fleas on his mangy record than you can count. In 6 oz horsehides, prime to prime dempsey's was the style Joe Frazier used to whomped Ali a new one.

No problem anyone picking Ali, but do they have to lie about Jack to do it, that or just sheer dummified ignorance.

You are still trying to ignore the fact that Ali is 40 pounds heavier, 2 inches taller and has several inches on reach above dempsey, despite being way more skilful and having an iron chin.

Dont be delusional, dempsey was good, for that time, i dont even think he could survive a Joe Frazier s left hook to the body.

Ali had ONE (1) inch of reach on Dempsey... Actually 2 centimeters according to boxrec... Ali said his best condition was for Liston 2... He was 206... Dempsey weighed 195.5 for Jack Sharkey -- but his best weight was probably 188 as a pre-title raw boned savage... So Ali had 18 pounds on Dempsey.. Fred Fulton had 20 pounds, 8 inches of reach, and 3.5 inches of height on Dempsey.. Fulton was smashed out in 23 seconds; then went on a 20-fight winning streak trying to get a rematch.. Carl Morris was 6'4" X 220 and Dempsey knocked him out in the 1st round.

Both Dempsey and Ali had great chins -- except that Dempsey never showed ANY ill effects from his many wars in the ring... I would say Dempsey was by far the tougher man -- and a guy who could take endless punishment without any consequences.. He fought more fights than Ali did.

I wouldn't say Ali was more skillful than Dempsey... Dempsey was a tremendously skillful infighter and body puncher and Ali was NOT... Boxing has many different aspects and Ali certainly wasn't a skilled all-around fighter... Ali was skilled at grabbing and holding and both are illegal. They should get a fighter applying them excessively disqualified.. Power punching wasn't Ali's forte but it was Dempsey's forte.. Ali got dumped flat on his can by left hooks from Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, and Joe Frazier---all smaller and shorter fighters than Ali BTW.. Dempsey had a smashing left hook and was particularly famous for smashing it off the chins of bigger, taller fighters like Fred Fulton, Carl Morris, and Jess Willard, beating the holy crap out of them ... and savagely finishing them off in an early round.

Kalan wrote:I wouldn't say Ali was more skillful than Dempsey... Dempsey was a tremendously skillful infighter and body puncher and Ali was NOT... Boxing has many different aspects and Ali certainly wasn't a skilled all-around fighter... Ali was skilled at grabbing and holding and both are illegal.

Il Douche is back! halleluja,
finally someone corrects all
those stupid imbeciles who
do not see that jack was the
most skilful boxer of all time
and not this black version of
wlad.

You're a nutcase.. Dempsey was not a skillful boxer... He admittedly cared nothing about the sweet science... He was a skillful fighter and puncher.

Kalan wrote:You're a nutcase.. Dempsey was not a skillful boxer... He admittedly cared nothing about the sweet science... He was a skillful fighter and puncher.

"I wouldn't say Ali was more skillful
than Dempsey"

Did Ali get hit a great deal or didn't he??? ... Could Ali fight inside and did he have a good body attack or didn't he??? ... Did Ali lay of the ropes and try to hid behind his gloves, or didn't he??? ... And when did Dempsey ever fight like he was trying to hide under a bed??? ... Ali was lacking a few skills.

Kalan wrote:Did Ali get hit a great deal or didn't he??? ... Could Ali fight inside and did he have a good body attack or didn't he??? ... Did Ali lay of the ropes and try to hid behind his gloves, or didn't he??? ... And when did Dempsey ever fight like he was trying to hide under a bed??? ... Ali was lacking a few skills.

douche, you are indeed special.
no, no ... really. you are. spending
hundreds of hours to destroy the
legacy of ali.

amazing. but here is the problem.
the rest of us ... we do have eyes.

If you have eyes you saw Ali get dumped by left hooks from Banks, Cooper, and Frazier and get his jaw shattered by Norton. No problem.

Kalan wrote:A prime Dempsey was one of the greatest fighting machines of all time... His unbelievable chin, savagery, and punching power made him the biggest box office draw in the History of Boxing. His Tunney fights attracting bigger gates and higher attendance than any fights up until the 1970s.. He was a tremendous left hooker and infighter who was impossible for bigger, taller Heavyweights to tie up effectively.

Impossible????............for the taller guy to get traction over a shorter guy. WHAT? seriously? but....but...hmmm.....


I've got to do some thinkin' on that one. And I need to take a look at some of your other statements on this subject....cuz I gitz confused ez.

Kalan wrote:Did Ali get hit a great deal or didn't he??? ... Could Ali fight inside and did he have a good body attack or didn't he??? ... Did Ali lay of the ropes and try to hid behind his gloves, or didn't he??? ... And when did Dempsey ever fight like he was trying to hide under a bed??? ... Ali was lacking a few skills.

According to just about everyone who fought him, they claim he was a difficult target. And of course Norton said he was like "hitting iron" despite his good luck in the jaw dept. And I think Ali gauged his own ability as to the incoming he felt he could "manage or ignore". So I'm not sure just how officious your statement is here. Though I don't doubt your passion as to it's authenticity.

Based on observable facts, it's far more "fishy" than "officious".

BoxBuzz wrote:Impossible????............for the taller guy to get traction over a shorter guy

I didn't say that.. Dempsey was possibly the most powerful infighter ever -- and bigger taller guys of his day (remember they were only 6'5" or shorter, not 7'1" tall with super long arms and legs or anything close to super athletes) such as Fulton, Morris, or Willard could not tie him up. Dempsey savagely beat them down. The relatively low powered Ali would not be able to tie the powerful young Dempsey up due to Dempsey's compact physique, crushing power, and greater leverage on the inside.

Kalan wrote: The relatively low powered Ali would not be able to tie the powerful young Dempsey up due to Dempsey's compact physique, crushing power, and greater leverage on the inside.

The pre ban Ali would not have to - he would just dance and jab Dempsey's head off.

There's a pretty big discrepancy in size here, weight and height.

SteveO wrote:

Kalan wrote: The relatively low powered Ali would not be able to tie the powerful young Dempsey up due to Dempsey's compact physique, crushing power, and greater leverage on the inside.

The pre ban Ali would not have to - he would just dance and jab Dempsey's head off.

Look...if the sickly, inept. and feather-powered Mildenberger was able to tag Ali -- and 185-pound, anemic punching Cooper could smash Ali to the canvas -- than Jack Dempsey would rip Ali new A-hole... He'd cut the ring off...jam Ali in a corner...and smash tamales out of him he never ate.

Kalan wrote:

SteveO wrote:

Kalan wrote: The relatively low powered Ali would not be able to tie the powerful young Dempsey up due to Dempsey's compact physique, crushing power, and greater leverage on the inside.

The pre ban Ali would not have to - he would just dance and jab Dempsey's head off.

Look...if the sickly, inept. and feather-powered Mildenberger was able to tag Ali -- and 185-pound, anemic punching Cooper could smash Ali to the canvas -- than Jack Dempsey would rip Ali new A-hole... He'd cut the ring off...jam Ali in a corner...and smash tamales out of him he never ate.

Now, now.....I'd say a PRN dose of your medicine is in order, you're just gettin' all worked up needlessly. Just remind yourself that Ali passed away recently, you'll be feelin' better in no time.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Kalan wrote:

SteveO wrote: The pre ban Ali would not have to - he would just dance and jab Dempsey's head off.

Look...if the sickly, inept. and feather-powered Mildenberger was able to tag Ali -- and 185-pound, anemic punching Cooper could smash Ali to the canvas -- than Jack Dempsey would rip Ali new A-hole... He'd cut the ring off...jam Ali in a corner...and smash tamales out of him he never ate.

Now, now.....I'd say a PRN dose of your medicine is in order, you're just gettin' all worked up needlessly. Just remind yourself that Ali passed away recently, you'll be feelin' better in no time.

I don't take ANY meds BuzzBox.. You take them.. That's what's fogging your brain.. You're as snippety as a wench gossiping about Widow Jones.

The average person my age takes 7 meds daily which is insanity.. Only in America do people overload meds to this great extreme.. I don't take vitamins either. I eat very healthy.. If you research vitamin supplements you'll find that those who take them die much younger than folks who don't.. You cannot take what nature puts in nutritious food and put it into a pill. You're missing enzymes, trace elements, co-factors, and things humans don’t even know about. Ali died recently and the quality of his life wasn't super excellent in his declining years.. That's a reminder to young boxers of every stripe - DEFENSE, DEFENSE, DEFENSE. That's one of the biggest lessons you can take from the great Ali -- and also from Jerry Quarry and his brother Mike.

Jack Dempsey lived to 87; not bad.. Not as good as Max Schmeling who went to 99.. They were clear as a bell to the end.. I attribute it to defense. Their defenses weren't masterful, but there's a saying: "The best defense is a good offense" ... One of the reasons Ali got hit is he didn't have a real good one.

Kalan wrote:Look...if the sickly, inept. and feather-powered Mildenberger was able to tag Ali -- and 185-pound, anemic punching Cooper could smash Ali to the canvas -- than Jack Dempsey would rip Ali new A-hole... He'd cut the ring off...jam Ali in a corner...and smash tamales out of him he never ate.

you can play that game with any
boxer in history. take their bad
moments and assume that is the
entire story and you end up with
a lousy fighter.

jack dempsey was one of the last
examples of the old school and
with the first modern boxer he
faced in gene tunney, all his strength
and vigor didn't find a target anymore.

there is no doubt that ali had his
weaknesses, every boxer does. you
are blind to his strengths and that
disqualifies your overall judgement
as biased.

Kalan wrote:Look...if the sickly, inept. and feather-powered Mildenberger was able to tag Ali -- and 185-pound, anemic punching Cooper could smash Ali to the canvas -- than Jack Dempsey would rip Ali new A-hole... He'd cut the ring off...jam Ali in a corner...and smash tamales out of him he never ate.

Ali won those fights did he not?
Given he supposedly had so many flaws, it is truly amazing that Ali beat guys like Liston, Patterson, Bonavena, Quarry, Lyle, Foreman, Shavers, Frazier x2, Norton x2 etc. etc. How did he manage that when he was so easy to hit?
I think I can predict your response, especially about Liston - but we'll see.
I wonder how Dempsey would have fared against those guys?

SteveO wrote:

Kalan wrote:Look...if the sickly, inept. and feather-powered Mildenberger was able to tag Ali -- and 185-pound, anemic punching Cooper could smash Ali to the canvas -- than Jack Dempsey would rip Ali new A-hole... He'd cut the ring off...jam Ali in a corner...and smash tamales out of him he never ate.

Ali won those fights did he not?
Given he supposedly had so many flaws, it is truly amazing that Ali beat guys like Liston, Patterson, Bonavena, Quarry, Lyle, Foreman, Shavers, Frazier x2, Norton x2 etc. etc. How did he manage that when he was so easy to hit?
I think I can predict your response, especially about Liston - but we'll see.
I wonder how Dempsey would have fared against those guys?

It's not how Dempsey would have fared against Shavers (crushing KO for Dempsey, who would have smashed Shavers out faster than Quarry did) or how Ali would have fared against Fred Fulton (Ali would have had problems with that style). It's how Dempsey would have fared against Ali.

You don't assume that because Norton shattered Ali's jaw and pounded him that he'll do well against Foreman... It's all about style dynamics.

1. Jack was known as one of the hardest punchers in history. He hurt everyone he hit, wherever he hit them. Muhammed hit many men as hard as he could without knocking them down/out. The three Frazier-Ali matches show 2 men hitting each other as hard as they can for many, many rounds, without a KO (If I remember correctly). Neither is known for his iron jaw. Jack was. Neither Muhammed nor Joe should be famed for his punching power against adept opponents. Sonny Liston and Cleveland Williams punched far harder than either Frazier or Ali. So did Dempsey.
2. Boxing history abounds with big men. Smaller men routinely beat them. Punching power comes from technique and coordination, not size. A smaller inside fighter can pummel a bigger man (Louis vs B Baer). A smaller canny fighter can destroy a bigger, stronger, very aggressive swarmer (Dempsey vs Firpo). Size doesn't tell the story.
3. Speed doesn't tell the story (Dempsey vs Carpentier)
4. Ali won over Liston, Williams, Frazier and a number of other very tough guys (Quarry, Chavalo, Cooper, Bonavena, Shavers). Liston was 43 and 45, injured going into the first fight. Williams was washed up when Ali fought him, having lost his abilities to a gunshot wound in an altercation with a policeman. Frazier was active and gutsy, but look at how Foreman bounced him around. In his prime, Liston would have walked all over Ali. Williams in his prime, was a much fiercer opponent for Sonny than Muhammed would have been. Ali's list of wins isn't as solid as it is touted to be.
5. No fighter ever matched Jack's ferocity in the ring, except maybe Firpo against Dempsey.
6. Muhammed had bad habits. Leaning back to avoid a punch - I think Dempsey, with his deceptively long reach, will have hit Muhammed when he ducked back, with his right or his left. Muhammed carried his guard way low and outside, Dempsey will easily have punched over it. Muhammed had a great jab and depended on it, and also telegraphed it a bit. . Jack will have simply avoided it, gone inside. Muhammed's quickness saved him from some bad habits. I don't recall Muhammed facing a truly quick fighter, but Dempsey was one. He may've made Ali pay for his bad habits.
7. Muhammed covered a lot of ground, quickly, using a wide stride. The best boxers keep their weight over their feet, keep their feet collected, and take a long step only on a clear offensive opportunity. Muhammed going backwards fast, Jack'll have been in his face. Dempsey also had the speed to cut inside those long strides.

In their prime, Jack Dempsey going away. Out of prime, Ali.

Ali by easy decision if he doesn't force a stoppage before that. Most, if not all, of the big men Dempsey fought on the way up were carny freaks, left over from the 'White Hope' era. He beat little Georges Carpentier who lost to every good fighter he went up against. He nearly lost to a one-armed built up stumble-bum in Firpo. He nearly lost to Bill Brennan, a fringe contender at best. He drew the colour line after he won the title and ducked middleweight Harry Greb but fought Tommy Gibbons and couldn't put the middleweight away.

Dempsey was an exciting fighter. The sportswriters loved him and helped Tex Rickard create his ferocious personna, but he wasn't the same fighter after he beat Willard. Doc Kearns made sure no real threat would cross Dempsey's path. He even hired guys like Jack Renault as sparring partners to discourage them from challenging his meal ticket. [Renault even went along to Hollywood with Dempsey and joined in the wild parties and film making, and was never the same after].

A prime Ali would destroy a prime Dempsey like the one who beat Willard.

Ali was much more advanced. A bad matchup for the brawler Dempsey. It would be similar to the Tunney affairs.