BoxRec

Riddick Blowe wrote:somehow it's so baffling for people to imagine Tua beating him. The mind boggles.

How many people here are clearly baffled by that thought? You seem far more baffled at the thought of Wlad beating Tua than anyone is of the reverse.

Your mind must be easy to boggle--relax man.

Tuan_Jim wrote:Maskaev also KOd a fellow in the amateurs I sense you like, Vitali K.

He KO'd him, as in lost the first round before winning in the second due to a hand injury? That's what the most credible source says of the bout (http://www.eastsideboxing.com/weblog/ne ... 745&more=1):

I clearly remember the fight between Vitali and Oleg. It was the semi finals and Vitali’s chief second was Mikhail Yakovlevich Matsyh, while I was one of the judges at the tournament. Before the fight, both Mikhail Yakovlevich and I warned Vitali to protect his right hand because otherwise the towel would be thrown in for him. Vitali did very well in the first round, boxing only with his left. However, towards the end of the stanza, Maskaev tried to rush him and Vitali met the attack with a right. During the break Mikhail Yakovlevich and I warned Vitali very sternly, and told him that one more right hand shot would warrant withdrawal from the fight. In the second Maskaev once again rushed Vitali and when he once again met the attack with a right, I gave Mikhail Yakovlevich the sign to throw in the towel immediately.

I still remember how angry Vitali was with me. After that, Vitali became the World Champion of kickboxing in Paris. So Oleg’s statements regarding knocking Vitali down three times in the first, make me smile quite a bit.

Even Maskaev gave a similar account in a later interview (http://www.boxnews.com.ua/en/interviews ... aev-speaks):

I stopped him in the first round. He's saying that he couldn't continue to fight because he had an injury. But the fact is that his trainer threw the towel in the middle of the ring and stopped the fight in the first round. No knockdowns or a heavy knockout in this account despite Maskaev claiming that for years, and nothing to suggest that he even got the better of the action before the bout ended.

And while Tua wasn't an all-time great generally, does he have a case for having all-time great power?

crusader wrote:He KO'd him, as in lost the first round before winning in the second due to a hand injury? That's what the most credible source says of the bout (http://www.eastsideboxing.com/weblog/ne ... 745&more=1):

That's the most credible source? East side boxing, where Vitali Klitschko is considered a sparkling white Ubermensch? I'm surprised you didn't edit wikipedia and present that as 'reliable evidence', for all the authenticity it carries.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

crusader wrote:He KO'd him, as in lost the first round before winning in the second due to a hand injury? That's what the most credible source says of the bout (http://www.eastsideboxing.com/weblog/ne ... 745&more=1):

That's the most credible source? East side boxing, where Vitali Klitschko is considered a sparkling white Ubermensch? I'm surprised you didn't edit wikipedia and present that as 'reliable evidence', for all the authenticity it carries.

I think Pele Reid was the only fighter ever to put a real dent in Vitali, and that was a lucky head kick in a crappy semi-contact karate match in 1992.

I suppose if Tua had his peak now it's not hard to imagine him giving untested and/or manufactured fighters like Wilder and Jennings a hard time. From a UK point of view Fury, Price and Haye would have to guard their chins like it was national treasure. I seriously don't imagine Tua would have troubled consummate 12 round fighters Wlad and Vitali.

polecateddy wrote:I suppose if Tua had his peak now it's not hard to imagine him giving untested and/or manufactured fighters like Wilder and Jennings a hard time. From a UK point of view Fury, Price and Haye would have to guard their chins like it was national treasure. I seriously don't imagine Tua would have troubled consummate 12 round fighters Wlad and Vitali.

Do you think the 'current Wlad' would have beaten the version of Sanders that beat him in '03?

Corrie might have taken a few more rounds to get to him than he did vs the younger Wlad, but he would have got there in the end. He could have marched forward with impunity knowing Wlad would be too scared to commit to the right hand. Wlad's octopus impression wouldn't save him this time.

Tua 'not even troubling' Wlad is straight-up comical considering Tua would be Wlad's best ever opponent. It's almost like Wlad hasn't been knocked down a million times against sub-standard fighters, but now he magically deals with a murderous hitter who can exert pressure which is demonstrably his worst nightmare styles-wise.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

crusader wrote:He KO'd him, as in lost the first round before winning in the second due to a hand injury? That's what the most credible source says of the bout (http://www.eastsideboxing.com/weblog/ne ... 745&more=1):

That's the most credible source? East side boxing, where Vitali Klitschko is considered a sparkling white Ubermensch? I'm surprised you didn't edit wikipedia and present that as 'reliable evidence', for all the authenticity it carries.

The author has been featured on numerous sites and had an interview with Mikkel Kessler posted on his then promotor's site, so I'm more inclined to believe what's in that article than what random people on the internet with multiple usernames say, especially those who invariably criticize the fighter in question, often with an odd sense of bitterness and anger. Of course you also predictably avoid quoting the part where Maskaev doesn't mention hurting, dropping, or knocking out Klitschko, but instead explains his win as being due to a hand injury like the other article claims; why do that if you legitimately dropped and knocked out someone?

Fact is that you have virtually no evidence that Vitali lost to Maskaev due to something other than a hand-injury. Maskaev and his team were unable to keep a straight story and claimed on some occasions that he won the fight by second round stoppage, on other occasions that it was by first round stoppage, and sometimes it's by knockout with Vitali being badly hurt and dropped, while other times it's just due to a hand injury. They have little credibility in my view and to assume that Maskaev won by KO based on their claims (what else are you going by?) is no better than blindly accepting something as true because it's on Wikipedia.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

polecateddy wrote:I suppose if Tua had his peak now it's not hard to imagine him giving untested and/or manufactured fighters like Wilder and Jennings a hard time. From a UK point of view Fury, Price and Haye would have to guard their chins like it was national treasure. I seriously don't imagine Tua would have troubled consummate 12 round fighters Wlad and Vitali.

Do you think the 'current Wlad' would have beaten the version of Sanders that beat him in '03?

Corrie might have taken a few more rounds to get to him than he did vs the younger Wlad, but he would have got there in the end. He could have marched forward with impunity knowing Wlad would be too scared to commit to the right hand. Wlad's octopus impression wouldn't save him this time.

Tua 'not even troubling' Wlad is straight-up comical considering Tua would be Wlad's best ever opponent. It's almost like Wlad hasn't been knocked down a million times against sub-standard fighters, but now he magically deals with a murderous hitter who can exert pressure which is demonstrably his worst nightmare styles-wise.

If Tua was aggressive, then he almost surely would have stopped Wladimir. In some fights though, Tua was passive and Klitschko may have survived and won if that was the case.

crusader wrote:And while Tua wasn't an all-time great generally, does he have a case for having all-time great power?

Nope, his power is overrated. Not as overrated Vitali's, but overrated all the same.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

crusader wrote:And while Tua wasn't an all-time great generally, does he have a case for having all-time great power?

Nope, his power is overrated. Not as overrated Vitali's, but overrated all the same.

Asking a serious question here and not looking to be argumentative. But how exactly do you judge all time great power? My only guess is by exactly who your opponents were and what you were able to do to them. Tua's opponents weren't 70's contender caliber, but some of them were pretty damn durable and he managed to stop or KO a good number of them. Does this guarantee him a spot in the fraternity of all time great punchers? Not necessarily. But I don't know how someone could just dismiss him so easily like that.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

crusader wrote:And while Tua wasn't an all-time great generally, does he have a case for having all-time great power?

Nope, his power is overrated. Not as overrated Vitali's, but overrated all the same.

Asking a serious question here and not looking to be argumentative. But how exactly do you judge all time great power? My only guess is by exactly who your opponents were and what you were able to do to them. Tua's opponents weren't 70's contender caliber, but some of them were pretty damn durable and he managed to stop or KO a good number of them. Does this guarantee him a spot in the fraternity of all time great punchers? Not necessarily. But I don't know how someone could just dismiss him so easily like that.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Thanks...

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Thanks...

Tua was a great puncher, no question. Just the left hook though. I don't think there's many fighters who could generate more power with that one punch. He just wasn't as athletic as say Mike Tyson, so wasn't as effective at early stoppages.

polecateddy wrote:Tua was a great puncher, no question. Just the left hook though. I don't think there's many fighters who could generate more power with that one punch. He just wasn't as athletic as say Mike Tyson, so wasn't as effective at early stoppages.

That's a fair observation. Whatever his shortcomings, lack of power on the world class level wasn't among them.

So now it's established he's nowhere near an all time great fighter, you two morons are going to put forth pathetic arguments for him being "an all time great puncher". He's not a great, at all. He was pretty good and in some cases very overrated.

Tomasino wrote:So now it's established he's nowhere near an all time great fighter, you two morons are going to put forth pathetic arguments for him being "an all time great puncher". He's not a great, at all. He was pretty good and in some cases very overrated.

'You two morons?' Why don't you stop being a moron and tell me where I ever said Tua was an all-time great? Muppet!

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

crusader wrote:And while Tua wasn't an all-time great generally, does he have a case for having all-time great power?

Nope, his power is overrated. Not as overrated Vitali's, but overrated all the same.

Can I try?
How is his power overrated?

Tomasino wrote:So now it's established he's nowhere near an all time great fighter, you two morons are going to put forth pathetic arguments for him being "an all time great puncher". He's not a great, at all. He was pretty good and in some cases very overrated.

F-ck off.

Tomasino wrote:So now it's established he's nowhere near an all time great fighter, you two morons are going to put forth pathetic arguments for him being "an all time great puncher". He's not a great, at all. He was pretty good and in some cases very overrated.

He could punch, nowhere near one of the greatest punchers. Ruiz was his greatest 'victim'. Definitely overrated, he had some solid wins at his level, but rates below Rahman however you want to look at it.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Tomasino wrote:So now it's established he's nowhere near an all time great fighter, you two morons are going to put forth pathetic arguments for him being "an all time great puncher". He's not a great, at all. He was pretty good and in some cases very overrated.

He could punch, nowhere near one of the greatest punchers. Ruiz was his greatest 'victim'. Definitely overrated, he had some solid wins at his level, but rates below Rahman however you want to look at it.

Aside from just your simply saying so, how is his power overrated?

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Tomasino wrote:So now it's established he's nowhere near an all time great fighter, you two morons are going to put forth pathetic arguments for him being "an all time great puncher". He's not a great, at all. He was pretty good and in some cases very overrated.

He could punch, nowhere near one of the greatest punchers. Ruiz was his greatest 'victim'. Definitely overrated, he had some solid wins at his level, but rates below Rahman however you want to look at it.

Aside from just your simply saying so, how is his power overrated?

Is it really that difficult to answer a question?

Riddick Blowe wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

crusader wrote:And while Tua wasn't an all-time great generally, does he have a case for having all-time great power?

Nope, his power is overrated. Not as overrated Vitali's, but overrated all the same.

Can I try?
How is his power overrated?

Because people talk about him like he launched missiles that only took one to wipe out a building. He didn't have that kind of firepower. He certainly could bang, but not at a level of Bowe or Lewis. I don't know that he punched any harder than Holyfield. When he was at his 'peak', the most impressive thing was his ability to carry the same power throughout the fight.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:Is it really that difficult to answer a question?