Should Gennady Golovkin be in the top 10 P4P?

[ikorolev]

Only Geale, Rubio & Macklin are in with a shout for being top 15. Have a look at the boxrec rankings for the other guys and you will see they are all ranked very, very low down the rankings. These guys just aren't as good as you are making out to be.

Can you read ?

I am talking about boxrec MW rankings, and all these fighters: Macklin, Stevens, Adama, Geale, Rubio were in top 15 at the time they faced GGG.

Look at their (and others) ranking history.

[Ricky_]

Only Geale, Rubio & Macklin are in with a shout for being top 15. Have a look at the boxrec rankings for the other guys and you will see they are all ranked very, very low down the rankings. These guys just aren't as good as you are making out to be.

As opposed to who?? There's a case for Geale being no.2 in the division on the basis Sergio Martinez is a 1-legged completely shot fighter and Cotto hasn't even fought at the divisions full weight limit, his fight vs Martinez was a Catchweight fight.

[Rodian]

yes of course....

[Crease]

I am talking about boxrec MW rankings, and all these fighters: Macklin, Stevens, Adama, Geale, Rubio were in top 15 at the time they faced GGG. Look at their (and others) ranking history.

Yeah, but the Boxrec rankings ONLY give us their current rankings. It does not mention their rankings at any time of the past.

And I invite you to prove me wrong!!!!

[ikorolev]

Correcting myself: who else faced FIVE top 15 opponents in a row and impressively KO'ed all of them barely losing a round ?

Out of interest...

Do you feel that Gennady Golovkin’s five fight KO streak over Matthew Macklin, Curtis Stevens, Osumanu Adama, Daniel Geale and Marco Antonio Rubio… trumps Mayweather’s 14-fight streak of consecutive victories over men who have held world titles (a run which began more than nine years ago against Arturo Gatti).

No, I don't. Just to be fair, Mayweather didn't look too good in his last two fights.

[dempseyfire]

Per usual, posters are going widely off in extreme directions.

Yes, he's top 10 lb for lb. But in the 6-10 range, not #1-5.

Ahead of him for me are Floyd, Manny, Hopkins, Rigondeaux, Gonzales and probably Marquez (Ward would be but IMO his what will surely be a year of inactivity drops him from consideration).

[ikorolev]

I am talking about boxrec MW rankings, and all these fighters: Macklin, Stevens, Adama, Geale, Rubio were in top 15 at the time they faced GGG. Look at their (and others) ranking history.

Yeah, but the Boxrec rankings ONLY give us their current rankings. It does not mention their rankings at any time of the past.

And I invite you to prove me wrong!!!!

You can see their rating history (in green before and in red after GGG fight):

2013-11-02 159½ Curtis Stevens 159¼ 25-3-0
Madison Square Garden Theater, New York, New York, USA W RTD 8 12 middleweight 787 829 292 249

2014-02-01 159½ Osumanu Adama 159¼ 22-3-0
Salle des etoiles, Monte Carlo, Monaco W TKO 7 12 middleweight 829 844 273 243

[Crease]

As opposed to who??

As opposed to other Middleweight fighters of recent years (circa 2010-present) since Golovkin became World Champion. There are a handful of good'uns that he never faced; Sergio Martinez, Felix Sturm, Julio Cesar Chavez Jr, Arthur Abraham, Martin Murray, Darren Barker, Dmitry Pirog & Peter Quillin. Not to mention that Miguel Cotto has now come in to the division.

^ The above guys that I have named have all been stone-clad top 10 (15 at least) guys for the period of recent years. Golovkin has not fought any of them.

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

Oops, it was actually 5. I am talking about boxrec MW rankings, and all these fighters: Macklin, Stevens, Adama, Geale, Rubio were in top 15 at the time they faced GGG.

No problem. Can you prove it, please?

All these guys were Ring top ten rated when GGG beat them: Geale, Macklin, Rubio, Stevens, Proksa.

Its widely acknowledge Mackin got robbed by Sturm. That "loss" boosted him in most rankings. Even over performed in the loss to p4p Sergio

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

I am talking about boxrec MW rankings, and all these fighters: Macklin, Stevens, Adama, Geale, Rubio were in top 15 at the time they faced GGG. Look at their (and others) ranking history.

Yeah, but the Boxrec rankings ONLY give us their current rankings. It does not mention their rankings at any time of the past.

And I invite you to prove me wrong!!!!

Use wayback machine. But dont use boxrec rankings, they're trash

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

As opposed to who??

As opposed to other Middleweight fighters of recent years (circa 2010-present) since Golovkin became World Champion. There are a handful of good'uns that he never faced; Sergio Martinez, Felix Sturm, Julio Cesar Chavez Jr, Arthur Abraham, Martin Murray, Darren Barker, Dmitry Pirog & Peter Quillin. Not to mention that Miguel Cotto has now come in to the division.

^ The above guys that I have named have all been stone-clad top 10 (15 at least) guys for the period of recent years. Golovkin has not fought any of them.

aa wasn't at MW. Pirog signed to fight GGG, hurt back, retired. The rest just ducked him. Multiple offers to Murray, Quillin. Barkers promoter: Darren is my friend, friends don't let friends fight ggg

[Crease]

You can see their rating history (in green before and in red after GGG fight):

2013-11-02 159½ Curtis Stevens 159¼ 25-3-0
Madison Square Garden Theater, New York, New York, USA W RTD 8 12 middleweight 787 829 292 249

2014-02-01 159½ Osumanu Adama 159¼ 22-3-0
Salle des etoiles, Monte Carlo, Monaco W TKO 7 12 middleweight 829 844 273 243

Maybe I'm missing something. But if they are, I can't see them.

[ikorolev]

When you are looking at a certain fighter, select Ratings On radio button. It is sticky, so you will see everybody's rating history.

[ikorolev]

GGG gained a top-ten rank by the WBA in June 2008 and also by the WBC in July the same year.

It wasn’t until April 2009 that he gained a top ten rank by the WBO, but became the number one challenger by August the same year. In July 2009, GGG also gained a top-ten rank by the IBF.

Gennady Golovkin eventually won the WBA "regular" World middleweight title in 2010.

Technically-speaking, I could argue that Gennady Golovkin has been world-rated middleweight since 2008, which means he’s had more than six years’ worth of opportunity to fight the likes of:
• Arthur Abraham
• Felix Sturm
• Kelly Pavlik
• Paul Williams
• Jermain Taylor
• Sergio Martinez
• Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
• Andy Lee
• Martin Murray
• Darren Barker
• Dmitry Pirog
• Peter Quillin
• Anthony Mundine
• Sam Soliman
• Anthony Mundine
• Daniel Jacobs

I’m not for one second suggesting that Gennady Golovkin wasn’t capable of beating many of these men… and perhaps there are legitimate reasons why a few of them weren’t viable options, but he should have fought more guys of this sort of calibre!

Have you heard about "risk over reward" argument ? He was too much of risk with very low reward which is why nobody sent offers to him and when his team was trying to talk with above guys, they were declining.

[Ricky_]

As opposed to who??

As opposed to other Middleweight fighters of recent years (circa 2010-present) since Golovkin became World Champion. There are a handful of good'uns that he never faced; Sergio Martinez, Felix Sturm, Julio Cesar Chavez Jr, Arthur Abraham, Martin Murray, Darren Barker, Dmitry Pirog & Peter Quillin. Not to mention that Miguel Cotto has now come in to the division.

^ The above guys that I have named have all been stone-clad top 10 (15 at least) guys for the period of recent years. Golovkin has not fought any of them.

So let me get this straight, you want to include a prime & active Sergio Martinez from 4 years ago, but also a current version of Cotto (I repeat, never to have fought at the MW limit).

In order to satisfy you, Golovkin would need to hire Marty McFly and fight the best versions of these inconsistent contenders by going back and forth to particular time periods over the last 4 years to find MW contenders and run-of-the-mill champions like Sturm who were showing some form.

Oh and by sating "circa 2010" you yourself ruled out Abraham, who's been a SMW since 2009. Your list is pretty desperate stuff tbh.

Unless Cotto fights a real contender at the full weight limit, like say, Quillin or Murray, i'm going to declare former unified champion Daniel Geale #2 at MW.

[ikorolev]

I agree. I am less than excited with the way GGG is being promoted.

[Crease]

So let me get this straight, you want to include a prime & active Sergio Martinez from 4 years ago, but also a current version of Cotto (I repeat, never to have fought at the MW limit).

I think it's important to focus in on exactly why I brought them up. It was stated that the likes of; Ishida, Simon & Makoto Fuchigami were ranked within the top 15 Middleweights in the world when Golovkin fought them. And I threw up a shortlist of genuine top 15 guys in the weight class.

In order to satisfy you, Golovkin would need to hire Marty McFly and fight the best versions of these inconsistent contenders by going back and forth to particular time periods over the last 4 years

Well in order to satisfy me, I would really like to see Golovkin's fans state things as they are. He has conclusively defeated a number of sub-standard opponents and it is not being seen for what it is. In sum, I would have gave him more credit for facing more challenging opposition during his WBA Title reign - hence where the number 4 years comes in to play.

[Crease]

When you are looking at a certain fighter, select Ratings On radio button. It is sticky, so you will see everybody's rating history.

Fair enough. Thanks for that. And yet it still doesn't tell you exactly where they were ranked, it only gives you numbers.

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

GGG gained a top-ten rank by the WBA in June 2008 and also by the WBC in July the same year.

It wasn’t until April 2009 that he gained a top ten rank by the WBO, but became the number one challenger by August the same year. In July 2009, GGG also gained a top-ten rank by the IBF.

Gennady Golovkin eventually won the WBA "regular" World middleweight title in 2010.

Technically-speaking, I could argue that Gennady Golovkin has been world-rated middleweight since 2008, which means he’s had more than six years’ worth of opportunity to fight the likes of:
• Arthur Abraham
• Felix Sturm
• Kelly Pavlik
• Paul Williams
• Jermain Taylor
• Sergio Martinez
• Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
• Andy Lee
• Martin Murray
• Darren Barker
• Dmitry Pirog
• Peter Quillin
• Anthony Mundine
• Sam Soliman
• Anthony Mundine
• Daniel Jacobs

I’m not for one second suggesting that Gennady Golovkin wasn’t capable of beating many of these men… and perhaps there are legitimate reasons why a few of them weren’t viable options, but he should have fought more guys of this sort of calibre!

Have you heard about "risk over reward" argument ? He was too much of risk with very low reward which is why nobody sent offers to him and when his team was trying to talk with above guys, they were declining.

You listed Mundine twice, but he only ducked Ggg once. Remember when Sturm paid 1/2 mil to get promoted to super and avoid mando Ggg, the other 2 top contenders were NDam and Mundine, both of whom declined.

Most of the guys on your list were sent offers, a lot better than whatever these guys ended up taking. Risk/reward of course, and to these guys G is the ultimate risk

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

When you are looking at a certain fighter, select Ratings On radio button. It is sticky, so you will see everybody's rating history.

Fair enough. Thanks for that. And yet it still doesn't tell you exactly where they were ranked, it only gives you numbers.

Just use wayback machine in the future

[ikorolev]

When you are looking at a certain fighter, select Ratings On radio button. It is sticky, so you will see everybody's rating history.

Fair enough. Thanks for that. And yet it still doesn't tell you exactly where they were ranked, it only gives you numbers.

If you are not lazy, you could track history of fighters in top 30 at the time when Adama and Stevens were fighting GGG. I am lazy, but I remember that they were in top 15.

[Ricky_]

So let me get this straight, you want to include a prime & active Sergio Martinez from 4 years ago, but also a current version of Cotto (I repeat, never to have fought at the MW limit).

I think it's important to focus in on exactly why I brought them up. It was stated that the likes of; Ishida, Simon & Makoto Fuchigami were ranked within the top 15 Middleweights in the world when Golovkin fought them. And I threw up a shortlist of genuine top 15 guys in the weight class.

And you came to the table with Martinez & Cotto?

Cotto shouldn't even be ranked at MW at all imo. He beat shot 1 legged Martinez at a catchweight. Placing Cotto at the top of the MW ranking on the basis of that fight would be like ranking Manny Pacquiao among the top LMW's.

And just out of interest, if Martinez decided to find the balls to fight Golovkin instead of taking fights with Macklin/Barker/Murray, would you have seen any other outcome than Golovkin by early ko?

[Crease]

Cotto shouldn't even be ranked at MW at all imo. He beat shot 1 legged Martinez at a catchweight.

But we didn't know that Martinez was shot before the fight. It's easy to say it now post fight, but before the fight he was the number one Middleweight in the world.

And just out of interest, if Martinez decided to find the balls to fight Golovkin instead of taking fights with Macklin/Barker/Murray, would you have seen any other outcome than Golovkin by early ko?

As a matter of fact, I'd favour him to beat them all. But that's not the point, the point is that he never actually fought them. There's a big difference between fans believing that a guy would win a fight, and the guy actually winning the fight.

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

You listed Mundine twice, but he only ducked Ggg once.

D'oh! Typo!

Most of the guys on your list were sent offers, a lot better than whatever these guys ended up taking. Risk/reward of course, and to these guys G is the ultimate risk

To be honest, none of us know for sure that all these men were actually offered fights, since the majority of these offers weren’t actually confirmed by the relevant parties. Also, we don’t know how good these offers were.

If the men I’ve listed knew about Golovkin’s talent, but wanted to be sufficiently rewarded for taking on such a big challenge, then GGG’s team should have made them an offer that was simply far too good to turn down!

Golovkin’s handlers should have invested heavily in their man from the get-go, because he should have been household name by now, but they didn’t and the quality of GGG’s resume is relatively weak as a direct result of their lack of confidence.

Weve gone over this. Youve seen the published purses for his opponents, far better than whatever else was available. Quillins opponents were getting less than 50% of that, for example. Not only that, but Ggg gives the most favorable pctg split of any champ to the challenger.

[Ricky_]

Cotto shouldn't even be ranked at MW at all imo. He beat shot 1 legged Martinez at a catchweight.

But we didn't know that Martinez was shot before the fight. It's easy to say it now post fight, but before the fight he was the number one Middleweight in the world.

And just out of interest, if Martinez decided to find the balls to fight Golovkin instead of taking fights with Macklin/Barker/Murray, would you have seen any other outcome than Golovkin by early ko?

As a matter of fact, I'd favour him to beat them all. But that's not the point, the point is that he never actually fought them. There's a big difference between fans believing that a guy would win a fight, and the guy actually winning the fight.

But nobody wanted to fight Golovkin, and now Cotto holds a belt, Golovkin has called him out and you can bet your ass hell will freeze over before Cotto signs his face or right rib cage to the dustbin.

I'm not entirely sure what your overall point is really, Martinez was the man for a while but unfortunately his fast and steep decline was asymmetric to Golovkins rise. Other than that there is very obvious levels, Geale & Co are quite clearly several levels below Golovkin. A prime Sergio is somewhere in between.