BoxRec

crusader wrote:GGG didn't look nearly as flawed and the notable weakness he did show--his defense--was widely pointed out.

Even if Wilder is still learning on the job and should be expected to significantly improve, which I'm not so sure about for reasons given in my previous post, that doesn't mean that his current flaws shouldn't be highlighted and that it's unreasonable for people to think that such shortcomings would hold him back against certain opponents.

crusader wrote:Wilder is being judged relative to his standing in the division. He is generally considered one of the top few fighters, is billed as a HW world champ because he holds a major title, and according to some people would even KO Wlad and Povetkin. Molina, on the other hand, had two first round KO losses, suffered one of those losses in his only previous fight against a top 30 opponent, had been dropped not many fights before by the top opponent he's beaten in Tony Grano, and in general looked like someone who a top fighter should beat easily. Thus, the fact that Wilder was taken nine rounds by this type of opponent, clearly hurt, arguably lost a few rounds, and generally didn't look sharp qualifies as an underperformance in my view, and hence an unimpressive peformance.

Looking at it more closely, several flaws can be identified which likely contributed to this, and I suggest that you read certain posts in this thread where some are mentioned. You can keep saying Wilder is still learning on the job, and I don't deny that he can improve, but he's far from a newcomer now and for all the learning he's apparently been doing he still showed pronounced holes in his game which could hold him back against top opposition.

KBB wrote:

crusader wrote:GGG didn't look nearly as flawed and the notable weakness he did show--his defense--was widely pointed out.

Even if Wilder is still learning on the job and should be expected to significantly improve, which I'm not so sure about for reasons given in my previous post, that doesn't mean that his current flaws shouldn't be highlighted and that it's unreasonable for people to think that such shortcomings would hold him back against certain opponents.

The point of it is that they are saying he failed to impress, my question is; what isn't impressive about knocking someone out regardless of how looked doing it??

Is he supposed to be perfect seeing that he started boxing so late into his life? Any other fighter gets a KO and people applaud that but because he showed a few vulnerabilities then that makes him unimpressive.

What a joke. I've seen tons of fighters show miles of flaws and somehow score a KO and get praised for it, but not Wilder, he has to be perfect, he's not allowed to show flaws and even if he KO's his opponent that isn't impressive.

Give me a break.

KBB wrote:

crusader wrote:Wilder is being judged relative to his standing in the division. He is generally considered one of the top few fighters, is billed as a HW world champ because he holds a major title, and according to some people would even KO Wlad and Povetkin. Molina, on the other hand, had two first round KO losses, suffered one of those losses in his only previous fight against a top 30 opponent, had been dropped not many fights before by the top opponent he's beaten in Tony Grano, and in general looked like someone who a top fighter should beat easily. Thus, the fact that Wilder was taken nine rounds by this type of opponent, clearly hurt, arguably lost a few rounds, and generally didn't look sharp qualifies as an underperformance in my view, and hence an unimpressive peformance.

Looking at it more closely, several flaws can be identified which likely contributed to this, and I suggest that you read certain posts in this thread where some are mentioned. You can keep saying Wilder is still learning on the job, and I don't deny that he can improve, but he's far from a newcomer now and for all the learning he's apparently been doing he still showed pronounced holes in his game which could hold him back against top opposition.

Fails to consider that most of Wilder's fights ended early not giving him time to learn more on the job. Fails to realize that Molina has more ring experience than Wilder.

Fails to realize that not all fights are the same, Pacquiao took Algieiri the distance, Khan did too, both are far more experienced than Chris Algieri but no one is knocking them even though they didn't look all that impressive not even coming close to KOing their opponent but I guess it's all good and fair because it's Wilder and he's a HW so that makes everything alright!!

crusader wrote:Most of Wilder's fights have ended early but I think all the rounds he's gotten in still count for something, and importantly he's been in training camp with elite fighters like Haye and Wlad, which should have been very valuable experiences. I'll say it once again--I'm not denying that he can get better--but it's far from certain that an Olympian who has been a pro for seven years and 34 bouts must be consistently learning and will still significantly improve, and he certainly didn't look like an improved fighter in his most recent bout. I also think it's a stretch to say that Molina is more experienced than him, as the latter has fought even worse opposition, didn't fight several world class amateurs prior to turning pro, and I don't believe has been in camp with the likes of Haye and Wlad.

The Khan/Pac bouts are poor comparisons in my view, because Algieri is significantly better than Molina and his win over Provo is far better than any of Molina's results. He has also never been stopped in the first round, let alone stopped in that round on two occasions, and he lasted the distance in both his fights with top opponents while Molina was stopped in one round by his only top 30 opponent prior to Wilder. I also think that Wilder showed much more pronounced technical flaws than Khan or Pacquiao did even though they were fighting a superior opponent, and he was in more trouble in the third than the other two were in at any time in their bouts with Algeiri.

ldlamb wrote:Lewis UD Mavrovic
Holyfield UD Bean
Tyson UD Tillis
Holmes UD Lucien Rodriguez
Ali UD Mathis


All these guys must suck too, since they werent able to quickly dispose of average fighters.

KBB wrote:

crusader wrote:Most of Wilder's fights have ended early but I think all the rounds he's gotten in still count for something, and importantly he's been in training camp with elite fighters like Haye and Wlad, which should have been very valuable experiences. I'll say it once again--I'm not denying that he can get better--but it's far from certain that an Olympian who has been a pro for seven years and 34 bouts must be consistently learning and will still significantly improve, and he certainly didn't look like an improved fighter in his most recent bout. I also think it's a stretch to say that Molina is more experienced than him, as the latter has fought even worse opposition, didn't fight several world class amateurs prior to turning pro, and I don't believe has been in camp with the likes of Haye and Wlad.

The Khan/Pac bouts are poor comparisons in my view, because Algieri is significantly better than Molina and his win over Provo is far better than any of Molina's results. He has also never been stopped in the first round, let alone stopped in that round on two occasions, and he lasted the distance in both his fights with top opponents while Molina was stopped in one round by his only top 30 opponent prior to Wilder. I also think that Wilder showed much more pronounced technical flaws than Khan or Pacquiao did even though they were fighting a superior opponent, and he was in more trouble in the third than the other two were in at any time in their bouts with Algeiri.

Sure they both had the Huge Punching Algieri to worry about

dempseyfire wrote:

ldlamb wrote:Lewis UD Mavrovic
Holyfield UD Bean
Tyson UD Tillis
Holmes UD Lucien Rodriguez
Ali UD Mathis


All these guys must suck too, since they werent able to quickly dispose of average fighters.

LOL all of those fighters save Rodriguez were head and shoulders above frikkin' Eric Molina . . .and Holmes was not a huge puncher and 33 years old when he fought Lucian, plus he dominated every minute of that fight.

ldlamb wrote:And was
Vaughn Bean
Head and shoulders above Molina.

I still am not sure who his best victory was over.

Bobbyptsd wrote:I can't believe some on this thread's main argument amounts to: "well, Lennox Lewis went the distance sometimes, so it's good that Wilder went rounds with Eric Molina"

I mean I can see it, I opened up the thread and I'm looking right at these posts. But I'm still having a hard time believing it.

Bobbyptsd wrote:I can't believe some on this thread's main argument amounts to: "well, Lennox Lewis went the distance sometimes, so it's good that Wilder went rounds with Eric Molina"

I mean I can see it, I opened up the thread and I'm looking right at these posts. But I'm still having a hard time believing it.

ldlamb wrote:

Bobbyptsd wrote:I can't believe some on this thread's main argument amounts to: "well, Lennox Lewis went the distance sometimes, so it's good that Wilder went rounds with Eric Molina"

I mean I can see it, I opened up the thread and I'm looking right at these posts. But I'm still having a hard time believing it.

No, the argument is that Wilder dominated a fight, winning 8 out of 9 rounds against a guy that he admittedly should have finished sooner....... But it is absurd to not acknowledge that every single one of the all time greats had similar experiences.

crusader wrote:I'm unsure why you mention Bean in your post about other champions not scoring stoppages, as he lost to a respectable group of opposition in Holyfied, Moorer, Thompson, Dimitrenko, Diaz, and V. Klitschko but was only stopped by the latter, that bout happened late in his career, and he still made it to the 11th. Molina, on the other hand, had been stopped in the first round twice prior to fighting Wilder, once by a clubfighter and once by his only previous top 30 opponent, who by the way always falls short at top level and was never an elite HW. Molina was also droppedi in his career best win over Tony Grano not long before facing Wilder, though that happened in the final round when there wasn't much time left.

KBB wrote:

crusader wrote:I'm unsure why you mention Bean in your post about other champions not scoring stoppages, as he lost to a respectable group of opposition in Holyfied, Moorer, Thompson, Dimitrenko, Diaz, and V. Klitschko but was only stopped by the latter, that bout happened late in his career, and he still made it to the 11th. Molina, on the other hand, had been stopped in the first round twice prior to fighting Wilder, once by a clubfighter and once by his only previous top 30 opponent, who by the way always falls short at top level and was never an elite HW. Molina was also droppedi in his career best win over Tony Grano not long before facing Wilder, though that happened in the final round when there wasn't much time left.

So who cares what round he stpped Molina in, I saw many good fighters get stopped early in bouts before by guys who were up and coming, Cooney vs Norton is just one of them. Does that make Norton a joke?

You are being overly critical of a fighter who is still learning late into his career, I explained to you that he didn't have a lot of ring experience due to his early KO's of almost all the previous opponents (exception Stiverne) and still none of that matters, I explained that he started in boxing late, but that doesn't matter to you either, I used numerous other examples and you melt them down to someone being more experienced but you refuse to acknowledge that Wilder is lesser experienced than those you mentioned.

There's no reasoning with you on this, if you think he's such a joke then why don't you get into the ring with him and let us know after it's over how much of a joke he is.

crusader wrote:My post about Bean, which I made 10 days ago, was in response to someone comparing him going the distance with Holyfield to Molina going rounds with Wilder. I don't think it's a huge deal that Wilder didn't score an early stoppage, but I do think that the comparison to Bean was poor given that he showed himself to be quite a durable fighter while Molina hasn't.

You already mentioned most of the points you're trying to make and I responded to them a while ago, so I find it odd that you'd suddenly bring them up now well after I discussed them with you. Perhaps you should also read the thread more carefully and then respond to the specific points I made rather distorting my comments and acting as if I suggested that none of the factors you mention are relevant when I didn't---for example, I think that Wilder's lack of rounds probably has impaired his progression, but not to the extent that he's still a novice or green after 34 pro fights, international level amateur experience, and a decade in the sport.

I also NEVER said that Wilder is a joke, so it seems like you either struggle to keep track of what others have posted or are intentionally putting words in my mouth like a dishonest debater would. I am not a professional boxer nor a heavyweight, so it would be pretty embarrassing for Wilder or any decent pro in the division if they couldn't quickly stop me.

Wilder is good and I see him as a threat to everyone in the division, but I think much of the criticism of his recent performance and questions about some of his abilities have merit. There are definitely people who are giving him a harder time than I think he deserves (e.g. the person calling him a joke), but likewise there are people who in my view are overly sensitive to criticism of him.

KBB wrote:

crusader wrote:My post about Bean, which I made 10 days ago, was in response to someone comparing him going the distance with Holyfield to Molina going rounds with Wilder. I don't think it's a huge deal that Wilder didn't score an early stoppage, but I do think that the comparison to Bean was poor given that he showed himself to be quite a durable fighter while Molina hasn't.

You already mentioned most of the points you're trying to make and I responded to them a while ago, so I find it odd that you'd suddenly bring them up now well after I discussed them with you. Perhaps you should also read the thread more carefully and then respond to the specific points I made rather distorting my comments and acting as if I suggested that none of the factors you mention are relevant when I didn't---for example, I think that Wilder's lack of rounds probably has impaired his progression, but not to the extent that he's still a novice or green after 34 pro fights, international level amateur experience, and a decade in the sport.

I also NEVER said that Wilder is a joke, so it seems like you either struggle to keep track of what others have posted or are intentionally putting words in my mouth like a dishonest debater would. I am not a professional boxer nor a heavyweight, so it would be pretty embarrassing for Wilder or any decent pro in the division if they couldn't quickly stop me.

Wilder is good and I see him as a threat to everyone in the division, but I think much of the criticism of his recent performance and questions about some of his abilities have merit. There are definitely people who are giving him a harder time than I think he deserves (e.g. the person calling him a joke), but likewise there are people who in my view are overly sensitive to criticism of him.

I have no problem with anyone being critical of him, I do have a problem with people saying he's a joke (not that you are) but he is finishing 99% of his opponents, sure he will show holes but name me one fighter outside of Mayweather that doesn't show some vulnerability in certain areas?

Name me one fighter that hasn't been hit by lesser fighters than themselves? There's only one problem with being critical, it's been overly critical. No fighter is perfect, all get hit and some respond differently to challenges based on their level of experience. 30 plus fights with most of them going no more than 4 rounds isn't significant enough experience to not show some vulnerabilities regardless of what anyone thinks.

I recently read Wilder is looking at Glazkov or Browne for September. I am guessing it will be Glazkov, since he has a similar style to Povetkin.

crusader wrote:

I recently read Wilder is looking at Glazkov or Browne for September. I am guessing it will be Glazkov, since he has a similar style to Povetkin.

I don't think they're similar. Glazkov rarely throws more than two shots at a time or anything other than jabs or straights, while the bulk of Povetkin's offense is composed of hooks, uppercuts, and overhand rights, and he throws heavily in combination--in my view being arguably the best combo-puncher in the division.

Boxing Writer wrote:

crusader wrote:

I recently read Wilder is looking at Glazkov or Browne for September. I am guessing it will be Glazkov, since he has a similar style to Povetkin.

I don't think they're similar. Glazkov rarely throws more than two shots at a time or anything other than jabs or straights, while the bulk of Povetkin's offense is composed of hooks, uppercuts, and overhand rights, and he throws heavily in combination--in my view being arguably the best combo-puncher in the division.

I agree. I think Andrey Fedosov, while short and limited, has much more common with Povetkin than Glazkov. Or even Arreola, who throws combos and has a good left hook and sometimes even throws uppercuts too. Personally I'd like to see Wilder against Fedosov on September 26.

Boxing Writer wrote:

crusader wrote:

I recently read Wilder is looking at Glazkov or Browne for September. I am guessing it will be Glazkov, since he has a similar style to Povetkin.

I don't think they're similar. Glazkov rarely throws more than two shots at a time or anything other than jabs or straights, while the bulk of Povetkin's offense is composed of hooks, uppercuts, and overhand rights, and he throws heavily in combination--in my view being arguably the best combo-puncher in the division.

I agree. I think Andrey Fedosov, while short and limited, has much more common with Povetkin than Glazkov. Or even Arreola, who throws combos and has a good left hook. Personally I'd like to see Wilder against Fedosov on September 26.