BoxRec

Riddick Blowe wrote:No change. Balls deep. I have a feeling, if he isn't too ruined, Whyte will go on to be a factor in this division and make this Joshua win look better with time.

I think Whyte is very good and can become much better, I think AJ will become a champ especially now with no decent Americans about but I think he needs to stay away from Fury for a
Long while. It makes me giggle listening to the once in a while boxing fans saying "he'll do Tyson in 3" etc etc. Take a seat lads you know fook all.Fury would box his ears off right now. I think he would take Wilder out tomorrow though.

I find it pretty odd this talk about how Joshua isn't 'ready' for Tyson Fury.

I do acknowledge that AJ has a few things to iron out and he isn't yet the finished article. But people really love to place a lot of meaning on Fury outpointing a lumbering statue.

Maybe some people are secretly terrified of how badly Joshua crushing Fury will reflect on Wlad and his 'reign', the idea that this past 10 pointless years of the heavyweight division will be exposed as somewhat illegitimate in one fell swoop.

Tyson Fury hasn't turned immortal just because he has claimed the world championship from a weak holder. He's still the same lumbering goon with a ton of heart but not much else. AJ has passed the chin test. Fury never passed the defence test. A Joshua at 80 per cent of his eventual capabilities would take care of him if they fought next year, or next, even. And if he won't, why do the bookies agree with me?

zorndeslammes wrote:Two months ago: "Tyson Fury got dropped by Steve Cunningham, a cruiserweight! He can't beat Wladimir Klitschko!"

Today: "Anthony Joshua had a tough fight with an undefeated prospect! He can't beat Tyson Fury!"

People never learn.

Riddick Blowe wrote:I find it pretty odd this talk about how Joshua isn't 'ready' for Tyson Fury.

I do acknowledge that AJ has a few things to iron out and he isn't yet the finished article. But people really love to place a lot of meaning on Fury outpointing a lumbering statue.

Maybe some people are secretly terrified of how badly Joshua crushing Fury will reflect on Wlad and his 'reign', the idea that this past 10 pointless years of the heavyweight division will be exposed as somewhat illegitimate in one fell swoop.

Tyson Fury hasn't turned immortal just because he has claimed the world championship from a weak holder. He's still the same lumbering goon with a ton of heart but not much else. AJ has passed the chin test. Fury never passed the defence test. A Joshua at 80 per cent of his eventual capabilities would take care of him if they fought next year, or next, even. And if he won't, why do the bookies agree with me?

zorndeslammes wrote:Two months ago: "Tyson Fury got dropped by Steve Cunningham, a cruiserweight! He can't beat Wladimir Klitschko!"

Today: "Anthony Joshua had a tough fight with an undefeated prospect! He can't beat Tyson Fury!"

People never learn.

The bookies don't just base their odds on the actual outcome. They know money will be lumped on Joshua.

Joshua didn't pass the chin test imo he took a shot off a prospect badly - if Dillian Whyte is a huge puncher then maybe that chin is good enough, but there's nothing to suggest Whyte has world beater power because he hasn't fought anyone decent.

Fury has too many tools in his arsenal for an inexperienced fight to deal with. Joshua in a years time, if he improves, may well beat fury but he would be dumbfounded in the ring against fury who can - brawl, switch hit, box on the back foot, has a reach and height advantage, and a very good jab.

Bookies are more proactive when it comes to opening the market and more reactive once the money comes in.

On the contrary, Fury would be dumbfounded by Joshua's power, speed, punch picking and volume. Fury won't turn into Willie Pep overnight in the face of that artillery, no matter how much inaction he had to pretend to show defensive skills against in his last fight.

Blowe's got the right idea. However you want to process AJ's reaction on a personal level to getting hit, the fact is he didn't go down, recovered, fought back, and won by monster knockout several rounds later. That is what actually happened. Wladimir Klitschko has been hit and hurt several times in his career, and his ability to do exactly what you saw AJ do successfully was tested on multiple occasions. In the overwhelming majority of those instances against opposition perhaps much, much weaker than Whyte, he failed miserably. That undoubtedly played a role in his risk-mitigating style of fighting from the Eliceo Castillo fight on. AJ seems much, much mentally stronger and more able to exchange with Tyson, which for Fury is a serious issue.

zorndeslammes wrote:Blowe's got the right idea. However you want to process AJ's reaction on a personal level to getting hit, the fact is he didn't go down, recovered, fought back, and won by monster knockout several rounds later. That is what actually happened. Wladimir Klitschko has been hit and hurt several times in his career, and his ability to do exactly what you saw AJ do successfully was tested on multiple occasions. In the overwhelming majority of those instances against opposition perhaps much, much weaker than Whyte, he failed miserably. That undoubtedly played a role in his risk-mitigating style of fighting from the Eliceo Castillo fight on. AJ seems much, much mentally stronger and more able to exchange with Tyson, which for Fury is a serious issue.

I agree. The output alone from Joshua will give Fury problems. Look at how cautious he was against a pondering apeth like Chisora, I've little doubt Joshua would have hammered Chisora into the ground like a tent peg on either occasion.

Joshua has flaws, he's meant to at this stage, he's still learning, but he looks a far better long term prospect than Fury at this stage. I wouldn't be that surprised if Fury lost a rematch to Wlad - though I would lean towards him winning quite heavily, it's possible that Wlad will adjust tactics and win. Fury basically pulled off a snatch and grab without getting into a fight with Wlad, I'm not certain he'll be able or allowed to do it a second time.

Time will tell, I don't see Fury staying champ for very long, unless he has some extremely cautious title defences post Wlad.

I think we should probably calm down as far as the idea of Tyson Fury being an Archie Moore style grooving, undulating, improv genius. Against such a passive, spooked opponent like Wladimir Klitschko, haunted by his 15 knockdowns, Fury was always (in hindsight) going to be at liberty to look brilliant. We know from the Steve Cunningham affair that when forced into a fight he becomes a clumsy liability. I have no doubt that Anthony Joshua would make a fight, the sledge hammers would start swinging, and at that moment anything might happen.

Joshua showed great character coming back to splatter Whyte. My problem is that, like Khan against Maidana, the hurt man escaped because the opponent was so crude and disorganised. Joshua reacted to a shot in the old glass chin manner, with the whole body short circuiting, and my worry is a competent opponent who can close the show will not let him off the hook. As Khan found against Prescott and Garcia, for example.

AJ so reminds me Frank Bruno if u ask me ,with probably with slightly faster hands but don't hit as hard !?
But same type of built stiff robotic type of movement with decent power but questionable gas tank .
Beat Tyson Fury ?? Fury would school him pretty easy if u ask me , he's already schooled the hardest puncher in the devision in Wlad ,what could a novice do

Tuan_Jim wrote:I think we should probably calm down as far as the idea of Tyson Fury being an Archie Moore style grooving, undulating, improv genius. Against such a passive, spooked opponent like Wladimir Klitschko, haunted by his 15 knockdowns, Fury was always (in hindsight) going to be at liberty to look brilliant. We know from the Steve Cunningham affair that when forced into a fight he becomes a clumsy liability. I have no doubt that Anthony Joshua would make a fight, the sledge hammers would start swinging, and at that moment anything might happen.

That's a fair point of discussion that's come up. I would suggest to you that the big difference then are the respective qualities of each division. At 140 and 147, the talent pool is deep, and good fighters are a dime a dozen. That's not the case at heavyweight at all. AJ could easily demolish Adamek, Thompson, Tarver, and Glazkov and not fought anyone of real quality AND and up with a world title belt.

Tuan_Jim wrote:I think we should probably calm down as far as the idea of Tyson Fury being an Archie Moore style grooving, undulating, improv genius. Against such a passive, spooked opponent like Wladimir Klitschko, haunted by his 15 knockdowns, Fury was always (in hindsight) going to be at liberty to look brilliant. We know from the Steve Cunningham affair that when forced into a fight he becomes a clumsy liability. I have no doubt that Anthony Joshua would make a fight, the sledge hammers would start swinging, and at that moment anything might happen.

Joshua showed great character coming back to splatter Whyte. My problem is that, like Khan against Maidana, the hurt man escaped because the opponent was so crude and disorganised. Joshua reacted to a shot in the old glass chin manner, with the whole body short circuiting, and my worry is a competent opponent who can close the show will not let him off the hook. As Khan found against Prescott and Garcia, for example.

I agree wholeheartedly with the first paragraph, and very funny too may I add.

I don't agree that Joshua looked glass chinned, he was definitely hurt, but absorbed it and came back, he didn't go into Frank Bruno style paralysis mode and stand there getting chinned into utter insensibility, ending with a nice big hug and sloppy kiss from the ref.

Khan went on to have a pretty good career, and if he'd had Joshua's type of power he would probably have done much better.

Joshua is a natural fighter, and he's much more fluid than frank was, and far less nerve wracked that Frank was, Frank was wound so tight, there were no wrinkles left on his scrotum until after the final bell.

Joshua will have learned a valuable lesson, and will have to learn to tighten than defence, and punish from behind a stiff jab, rather than whaling away and expecting your man to fall over.

Whyte was the first guy who had a decent chin, a whack of his own, and came believing he could win, those three factors made him a danger, and Joshua prevailed in a tough night, but overall, he dominated Dillian for most of the fight. It wasn't a back and forth war that hung on a knife edge, Whyte had his moment, and then Joshua worked his way back and broke him up.

Whyte definitely came to win, managed to land some meaningful shots and generally had the physical toughness to force AJ to have a fight...so I think AJ has ticked the box in terms of dealing with a live opponent and coping with a situation when things did not always roll his way.

But DW is essentially just a top-level domestic operator (at the moment) in my book and there's another leap to be made into the Euro pond as well as some of the division's tougher, more savvy gatekeepers and that's when I think we will see what AJ brings to the party.

Bitish and Commonwealth title fights at heavyweight should not be sneered at or dismissed - but they remain the first steps - and I am reserving judgement on AJ until he moved onto the next level. That's where some of the really dangerous guys tend to lurk.

The thing is, though Dillian came to win and so on, he hadn't been beyond 4 rounds and he seemed gassed after 2 rounds himself. Joshua wasn't put under much pressure apart from round 2.

joshua took the punch fine. good performance for me.

if he jumped fury from the off he would stand a far better chance than trying to box him at range.

forcefraser wrote:joshua took the punch fine. good performance for me.

if he jumped fury from the off he would stand a far better chance than trying to box him at range.

It's not easy to 'jump' on Fury. His boxing skills are extremely underrated. He's also 6ft9 with long arms. He totally outboxed Chisora second time and also outfoxed the previously 'impossible' to outbox Klitschko.

Joshua got outjabbed at time by the 4 inches shorter Whyte and also by Gary Cornish.

AJ has said he's not ready for Fury yet and I agree, but when will he be ready? It's not like Fury is an old man, sure AJ will get better but so will Fury as he steps up in class.

Fury is one of the worst unified Heavyweight Champion for year's and the AJ train I was on was steam rolling every thing in its way until Dillian
hit him on the chin today he cannot beat Fury but tomorrow is another day..........Fury and Joshua aint no Mike Tyson

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:I think we should probably calm down as far as the idea of Tyson Fury being an Archie Moore style grooving, undulating, improv genius. Against such a passive, spooked opponent like Wladimir Klitschko, haunted by his 15 knockdowns, Fury was always (in hindsight) going to be at liberty to look brilliant. We know from the Steve Cunningham affair that when forced into a fight he becomes a clumsy liability. I have no doubt that Anthony Joshua would make a fight, the sledge hammers would start swinging, and at that moment anything might happen.

Joshua showed great character coming back to splatter Whyte. My problem is that, like Khan against Maidana, the hurt man escaped because the opponent was so crude and disorganised. Joshua reacted to a shot in the old glass chin manner, with the whole body short circuiting, and my worry is a competent opponent who can close the show will not let him off the hook. As Khan found against Prescott and Garcia, for example.

I agree wholeheartedly with the first paragraph, and very funny too may I add.

I don't agree that Joshua looked glass chinned, he was definitely hurt, but absorbed it and came back, he didn't go into Frank Bruno style paralysis mode and stand there getting chinned into utter insensibility, ending with a nice big hug and sloppy kiss from the ref.

Khan went on to have a pretty good career, and if he'd had Joshua's type of power he would probably have done much better.

Joshua is a natural fighter, and he's much more fluid than frank was, and far less nerve wracked that Frank was, Frank was wound so tight, there were no wrinkles left on his scrotum until after the final bell.

Joshua will have learned a valuable lesson, and will have to learn to tighten than defence, and punish from behind a stiff jab, rather than whaling away and expecting your man to fall over.

Whyte was the first guy who had a decent chin, a whack of his own, and came believing he could win, those three factors made him a danger, and Joshua prevailed in a tough night, but overall, he dominated Dillian for most of the fight. It wasn't a back and forth war that hung on a knife edge, Whyte had his moment, and then Joshua worked his way back and broke him up.

Fantastic post. Sums everything up perfectly.

On a side point, it seems to be the case that American fight fans are, in general, receiving Joshua more favourably than Brits, leading me to believe the quaint, baffling tradition of Brits being wary of winners may actually still exist. Fellow Brits: Please do not be afraid of rooting for a winner! The pluckly, amiable loser is yesterday's news!

Ally-M1 wrote:

tobyh5 wrote:Reminds me too much of Bruno, always has and last night made it more so with his reaction to getting tagged. Sure he stayed up and won but that was the first real punch he has taken as a pro and it caused a real hot coal walking look about him.

I'm glad someone else sees some of the similarities between AJ and Bruno. I've been saying the same (to much faux disgust from my 'casual fan' friends).

Thats all ive been saying for a long time.

In a handful of very very early fights he was still lithe and mobile.his decision to bulk up has made him bruno mk 2 ,but he has less stamina,not near the same power, and therecmay be signs he cant figt going back and doesnt handle pressure well.

The reality though is the hw division in 2015 is far less talented,less akilled,less fast ,less powerful than in 1985 or 95 so he will be far more succesful

Joshua looks the real McCoy to me, that was a massive left hook he walked on to and he took it very well, his legs looked solid after a few seconds.
It reminded me a bit of the punch Tyson walked on to against Bruno, in that his legs went for a split second, but generally, no bother.
A very good sign I'd say - Wilder would have been flattened by that Whyte left hood I reckon ( quick, match them up next year )

If they fought next up, Fury's massive reach will cause problems, but certainly AJ looks the better fighter by a long shot.

Good times ahead

MightyWarrior wrote:Wilder would have been flattened by that Whyte left hood I reckon

Fury would have been dropped too - although to be fair probably would have got up and recovered.

Joshua will never beat Fury.

That said there is more than one version of a world title and if Frank Bruno could pick one up (eventually) I'm sure Joshua can.

I predict he will become a world champion at some point but he won't become best in the division.

Ian1973 wrote:Joshua will never beat Fury.

That said there is more than one version of a world title and if Frank Bruno could pick one up (eventually) I'm sure Joshua can.

I predict he will become a world champion at some point but he won't become best in the division.

Is it because you placed Wlad on such a pedestal that your logical conclusion is that Fury must be awesome too? Did you pick Fury to beat Wlad? What would you have said before the Wlad fight about this matchup? Did the Wlad fight make that much difference to folks' opinions of how Fury does vs Joshua?

Do you really think Fury can handle the barrage he will undoubtedly be faced with should he collide with Joshua? Do you honestly think he is that astute in there or has the chin to withstand the pressure? Have you even seen the Cunningham or Pajkic fights? The McDonut fight? The second round of Fury/Chisora I?

Just curious.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

Ian1973 wrote:Joshua will never beat Fury.

That said there is more than one version of a world title and if Frank Bruno could pick one up (eventually) I'm sure Joshua can.

I predict he will become a world champion at some point but he won't become best in the division.

Is it because you placed Wlad on such a pedestal that your logical conclusion is that Fury must be awesome too? Did you pick Fury to beat Wlad? What would you have said before the Wlad fight about this matchup? Did the Wlad fight make that much difference to folks' opinions of how Fury does vs Joshua?

Do you really think Fury can handle the barrage he will undoubtedly be faced with should he collide with Joshua? Do you honestly think he is that astute in there or has the chin to withstand the pressure? Have you even seen the Cunningham or Pajkic fights? The McDonut fight? The second round of Fury/Chisora I?

Just curious.

No problem mate.

I watched the second Chisora fight and a lot of people criticised Chisora's performance at the time but during that fight I saw a completely different Fury to the one that fought Cunningham and before. Fury previously liked to fight but when that made him vulnerable. Against Chisora (second time) Fury was different. He took no chances at all, stuck to a game plan of boxing on the outside, used quality movement to evade Chisora's (limited) attack and showed a level of quality of boxing i hadn't seen from him before - (perhaps because everything he did was controlled).

The Hammer fight showed me the same sort of thing. Neither Chisora nor Hammer really managed to land a glove on Fury.

I thought and said before the Wlad fight that Fury would cause Wladimir problems and I could see him outboxing Wlad at times. However, such is Klitschko's experience and pedigree I thought at some point he'd land on Fury and it'd be lights out. That never happened. When Wlad did land a right hand Fury took it. Maybe that's because he hadn't knackered himself out "fighting" in earlier rounds??

That's three fights in a row where Fury's opponents have barely landed a blow. It's not all co-incidences or all opponents under - performing.

The trouble is people form opinions in their head following events years ago and they find it very hard to get rid of those ideas.

I see Fury keeping the fight at range and just popping Joshua off. Joshua doesn't have the upper body movement or the hand speed to give Fury problems. He's another one I see barely landing a blow. IF he does land flush he has a chance against anyone in history, he can bang but Fury took Klitschko's right hand. I doubt Joshua hits any harder than that.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

Ian1973 wrote:Joshua will never beat Fury.

That said there is more than one version of a world title and if Frank Bruno could pick one up (eventually) I'm sure Joshua can.

I predict he will become a world champion at some point but he won't become best in the division.

Is it because you placed Wlad on such a pedestal that your logical conclusion is that Fury must be awesome too? Did you pick Fury to beat Wlad? What would you have said before the Wlad fight about this matchup? Did the Wlad fight make that much difference to folks' opinions of how Fury does vs Joshua?

Do you really think Fury can handle the barrage he will undoubtedly be faced with should he collide with Joshua? Do you honestly think he is that astute in there or has the chin to withstand the pressure? Have you even seen the Cunningham or Pajkic fights? The McDonut fight? The second round of Fury/Chisora I?
Just curious.

All of which, Fury came out the winner

Ian1973 wrote:

Riddick Blowe wrote:

Ian1973 wrote:Joshua will never beat Fury.

That said there is more than one version of a world title and if Frank Bruno could pick one up (eventually) I'm sure Joshua can.

I predict he will become a world champion at some point but he won't become best in the division.

Is it because you placed Wlad on such a pedestal that your logical conclusion is that Fury must be awesome too? Did you pick Fury to beat Wlad? What would you have said before the Wlad fight about this matchup? Did the Wlad fight make that much difference to folks' opinions of how Fury does vs Joshua?

Do you really think Fury can handle the barrage he will undoubtedly be faced with should he collide with Joshua? Do you honestly think he is that astute in there or has the chin to withstand the pressure? Have you even seen the Cunningham or Pajkic fights? The McDonut fight? The second round of Fury/Chisora I?

Just curious.

No problem mate.

I watched the second Chisora fight and a lot of people criticised Chisora's performance at the time but during that fight I saw a completely different Fury to the one that fought Cunningham and before. Fury previously liked to fight but when that made him vulnerable. Against Chisora (second time) Fury was different. He took no chances at all, stuck to a game plan of boxing on the outside, used quality movement to evade Chisora's (limited) attack and showed a level of quality of boxing i hadn't seen from him before - (perhaps because everything he did was controlled).

The Hammer fight showed me the same sort of thing. Neither Chisora nor Hammer really managed to land a glove on Fury.

I thought and said before the Wlad fight that Fury would cause Wladimir problems and I could see him outboxing Wlad at times. However, such is Klitschko's experience and pedigree I thought at some point he'd land on Fury and it'd be lights out. That never happened. When Wlad did land a right hand Fury took it. Maybe that's because he hadn't knackered himself out "fighting" in earlier rounds??

That's three fights in a row where Fury's opponents have barely landed a blow. It's not all co-incidences or all opponents under - performing.

The trouble is people form opinions in their head following events years ago and they find it very hard to get rid of those ideas.

I see Fury keeping the fight at range and just popping Joshua off. Joshua doesn't have the upper body movement or the hand speed to give Fury problems. He's another one I see barely landing a blow. IF he does land flush he has a chance against anyone in history, he can bang but Fury took Klitschko's right hand. I doubt Joshua hits any harder than that.

Agreed Fury has improved no end from the earlier days and now he has found his style, which maybe not the most ferocious but it is very effective! I think whoever has a chance of beating Fury they will need a good tactician as Tyson isn't getting involved in any heavy trading brawls from now on, just technical boxing.