BoxRec

man wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:Ken is a definite top 30 guy, could see him beating Lewis, Bowe, possibly Tate and Coetzee.

around thirty would seem right to me.
he could give some top guys other than
ali upsets, if styles match nicely for him.

prime for prime tyson - norton would
have been quite something, since there
was no fear in ken norton.

True, but with Tyson's speed, especially that explosiveness, might be hard for Ken to deal with.

man wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:Ken is a definite top 30 guy, could see him beating Lewis, Bowe, possibly Tate and Coetzee.

around thirty would seem right to me.
he could give some top guys other than
ali upsets, if styles match nicely for him.

prime for prime tyson - norton would
have been quite something, since there
was no fear in ken norton.

There was quite a lot of fear in Norton.. He was as petrified before the George Foreman fight as Michael Spinks was for the Mike Tyson fight.. That kind of fear freezes you a little.. You cannot react defensively to your opponents punches as well as if you're confident, thinking positive, relaxed, and 100% alert. You may be a little tight and on edge before a really tough fight -- but generally you loosen up with the first exchange.. If you don't you're in trouble.

maybe someone stole from Norton his copy of the paperback book "The Power of Positive Thinking" while he was done in Venuzaula
( maybe that along with his custom-made boxing shoes that were missing from his dressing room before the fight from what I remember)

Kalan wrote:

man wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:Ken is a definite top 30 guy, could see him beating Lewis, Bowe, possibly Tate and Coetzee.

around thirty would seem right to me.
he could give some top guys other than
ali upsets, if styles match nicely for him.

prime for prime tyson - norton would
have been quite something, since there
was no fear in ken norton.

There was quite a lot of fear in Norton.. He was as petrified before the George Foreman fight as Michael Spinks was for the Mike Tyson fight.. That kind of fear freezes you a little.. You cannot react defensively to your opponents punches as well as if you're confident, thinking positive, relaxed, and 100% alert. You may be a little tight and on edge before a really tough fight -- but generally you loosen up with the first exchange.. If you don't you're in trouble.

Duane Bobick had that problem too from what I remember.

Norton fought a very good first round. He clearly was not intimidated. Of course he got caught in the second round. One thing that nobody talks about is the 2nd knockdown. After Norton got up right away, the referee did not give him the mandatory 8-count. (He did after the first knockdown.) Foreman was allowed to jump on him again very quickly. A few more seconds of time may have helped Norton.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Norton fought a very good first round. He clearly was not intimidated. Of course he got caught in the second round. One thing that nobody talks about is the 2nd knockdown. After Norton got up right away, the referee did not give him the mandatory 8-count. (He did after the first knockdown.) Foreman was allowed to jump on him again very quickly. A few more seconds of time may have helped Norton.

True, but there was no way he was beating George that night.

Caractacus wrote:

Kalan wrote:

man wrote: around thirty would seem right to me.
he could give some top guys other than
ali upsets, if styles match nicely for him.

prime for prime tyson - norton would
have been quite something, since there
was no fear in ken norton.

There was quite a lot of fear in Norton.. He was as petrified before the George Foreman fight as Michael Spinks was for the Mike Tyson fight.. That kind of fear freezes you a little.. You cannot react defensively to your opponents punches as well as if you're confident, thinking positive, relaxed, and 100% alert. You may be a little tight and on edge before a really tough fight -- but generally you loosen up with the first exchange.. If you don't you're in trouble.

Duane Bobick had that problem too from what I remember.

He sure did... Bobick seemed to have stage fright. Your first fight with a bonafide top contender can be tough. He was pretty tied up and didn’t handle it well.

Kalan wrote:

man wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:Ken is a definite top 30 guy, could see him beating Lewis, Bowe, possibly Tate and Coetzee.

around thirty would seem right to me.
he could give some top guys other than
ali upsets, if styles match nicely for him.

prime for prime tyson - norton would
have been quite something, since there
was no fear in ken norton.

There was quite a lot of fear in Norton.. He was as petrified before the George Foreman fight as Michael Spinks was for the Mike Tyson fight.. That kind of fear freezes you a little.. You cannot react defensively to your opponents punches as well as if you're confident, thinking positive, relaxed, and 100% alert. You may be a little tight and on edge before a really tough fight -- but generally you loosen up with the first exchange.. If you don't you're in trouble.

thnx, i didn't know that.

I first "met" Ken norton when I watched the documentary Champions forever in a VHS back to 1996.
From that time, Norton became my favorite heavyweight, despite the fact that here in Greece was unknown.
I believe that after the Greatest and Frazier, was the best boxer of the Golden Era of 70s.
Great shape, and a great pressure style.
I believe that the problem with punchers was his cross armed style, that let his chin unprotected from the heavy punches.
He was robbed at the third match against Ali and was nearly to win Larry Holmes.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑05 Oct 2015, 21:56 - Modern revisionism inanity.

Mr. Larry weren't in the 70s mix with the big 4. Many if not most thought Ken won all 3 against Ali and the one against Holmes. BOXREC ranks by results no matter how crooked, not in context to the seedy underpinnings of boxing.

Most think Holmes beat Norton and he did it with a torn left biceps...

Let's not have revisionism... Holmes took a solid lead early in the fight while his biceps held out for a few rounds... Larry couldn't retract the jab well after the biceps unraveled, so he resorted to brawling and still outpunched Norton by a solid margin.. Norton did beat Ali 3 times -- the 1st time by a laughable Split Decision that had everybody shaking their heads.

The thing is, you have to beat an icon like Ali really bad -- and leave no doubt in anybody's mind.. What did he think when he was awarded a SD in a fight he dominated -- that beating Ali was always going to be that easy and he could win 8 rounds??? Norton never stepped on the gas. He kept his motor mouth flapping and turned everybody off. That's why he wasn't awarded the rematch and rubbermatch -- he had himself to blame. He tried to fight Frazier, and Joe wanted no part of him.. But Foreman looked at the wide open, head first Norton ... and saw lunch.

He was damned chinny... Otherwise novice rookie, 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia wouldn't have knocked him clean on his right ear with a straight.

Because Mike Tyson got KNOCKED OUT!!! ... Douglas won 9 of those 10 rounds -- but CHECK the scorecards dumbassed Old-n-Moldie

Ali did NOT get knocked out... Therefore who are the judges likely to give it too??? DUH!!!

Norton had a great fight with Holmes, and broke Ali's jaw, but he's not a top 20, or 30 guy. Maybe 50, or below. Tyson is an all-time great. His legacy was set way before Douglas. If Tyson had taken training as seriously as someone like Marciano it would have been a long time before he was beat. By the time Holyfield fought him has was way past it and had been out of boxing for 3 years. Ali will always be number 1 and for me Joe Louis is 2, but I have Tyson rated very highly. Fact is, on any given night any of the all time greats could have beaten anyone. Tyson could have beaten Ali, Louis could have beaten Tyson and etc. All time greats at their very best could have beaten one another evenly.

barry wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 21:14 Fact is, on any given night any of the all time greats could have beaten anyone. Tyson could have beaten Ali, Louis could have beaten Tyson and etc. All time greats at their very best could have beaten one another evenly

I absolutely disagree with that 1000% ... Styles make fights and there's a style to beat everyone.

No way is Frazier, who gave you his head to shoot at, beating Foreman on their respective best nights.. Marciano is not beating Tyson, Liston, Joshua, Foreman, or the Klitschkos.. Max Schmeling knew he could upset Joe Louis. It took ATG trainer Jack Blackburn months to figure out exactly what Louis was doing that Schmeling clued in on.

Tyson is not going to beat Lewis, Joshua, or the Klitschko Bros -- Possibly not even a peak Buster Douglas.. Douglas realized he could beat Tyson from watching Tyson-Tucker.. He saw vulnerabilities he could exploit.. Sometimes your strengths are an exact match for an ATG fighter's weaknesses.. A ring wise fighter will spot weaknesses for his particular strengths before anybody else sees them, even his coach. That's why Douglas trained so hard. He knew he could beat Tyson if he could go hard for 12 rounds and never get tired.. I think Tyson would have a decent shot at out-speeding Foreman or Liston who were not physically bigger and stronger than Tyson on their best nights.

I don't see Dempsey beating Louis because of the jab. I don't see Ali beating Johnson because of his inside game. Johnson was a guy you couldn't tie up and you couldn't put jabs on him.. Anybody who led with their head, like Frazier or Norton, was never going to beat Foreman.

Ali, on his best night, could and would beat any heavyweight in history! His overall game is just simply too strong! You seen how he handled Foreman's inside game against him, he did the same against Frazier and any other heavyweight he faced. Johnson did not have the kind of power that Foreman had, or even what Frazier had and Ali took the best both had to offer. But a young Ali would have had less trouble with both Foreman and Frazier. Too much speed, his foot-work was too good and he had the same kind of pop in his punches that Johnson did. Ali would dance circles around Johnson and jab and right hand him until he either stopped Johnson, or won a clear-cut decision. Some people do not think "Sugar" Ray Robinson was as good as he really was because of the losses he suffered, but a prime Robinson was the best to ever lace-up the gloves. He had everything and Ali was the closest to Robinson than any other heavyweight in history.

I don't think Dempsey would beat Louis, but Dempsey on his best night could certainly hang in with Louis and if he landed that right it would be lights out for nearly all heavyweights...except maybe Tex Cobb.

The all-time greats on their best night could beat any one of the other. Some, like Ali, Louis, Tyson and a couple of others would win a majority of the bouts in a ten-bout series against any another all-time great, but they will suffer losses as well. Ali's speed, Louis' precision and Tyson's combination of speed and power could match and win equally among one another. Douglas didn't realize anything about Tyson...he got damn lucky that Tyson simply did not train for that fight and that is all that was. It wasn't prime Tyson, it was rich, lazy Tyson and he paid for it.

I use to largely believe that old-timers could match-up with modern fighters and there are some that would be great in any era, but the game is too evolved and size does make a difference if it's on the right fighter. As dominant as some of the old timers were, their style and moreso, their preparation cannot compare to today where fighters have weeks and weeks to train for one fight. Don't get me wrong, I would put either Klitcschko at the top and I wouldn't put Lewis there either and they have been the best of the real big men to date, but as I said, size has to be on the right person...just size won't get it done as history has shown!

Lennox Lewis, the Klitschko's and John Ruiz could tie-up anyone in history...that was a huge part of their game...it also happened to be nothing but fouling. The all-time greats would have to tie-up Johnson as they simply did not fight that way. if anyone wants to really be factual, "Battling" Jim Johnson beat Jack Johnson...it should have been a TKO loss for Jack. Jack Johnson was the best heavyweight of his era, though I would love to have seen him face a prime Langford, which I still think Johnson would win as he did when they did fight, but Langford was nowhere near the fighter he became when they fought! Also, Harry Wills would have been a very tough fight for Johnson in 1915.

He probably fits into the 70's scene in the same sort of context that Michael Moorer did in the 90's group. A very good fighter who mixed it up with good men, but not an ATG.

That's a really good comparison!

barry wrote: ↑01 Dec 2017, 13:47 That's a really good comparison!

Thank you

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barry wrote: ↑01 Dec 2017, 13:35 Ali, on his best night, could and would beat any heavyweight in history! His overall game is just simply too strong! You seen how he handled Foreman's inside game against him, he did the same against Frazier and any other heavyweight he faced. Johnson did not have the kind of power that Foreman had, or even what Frazier Lennox Lewis, the Klitschko's and John Ruiz could tie-up anyone in history...that was a huge part of their game...it also happened to be nothing but fouling

Nothing but fouling barry says??? ... That means Ali set the all-time record for fouling in a Heavyweight Championship round.

In the 1st round of the Foreman fight Ali grabbed and held Foreman 20 times in the first round---which included wrestling and grabbing Foreman's head and pulling it down.. Zack Clayton was in Ali's hip pocket.. He broke them each time instead of ordering Ali to let go and stop grabbing -- which you need to do if there's persistent grabbing by one of the boxers.. You need to start calling fouls and taking points if somebody grabs and holds over 8 or 10 times in a round.. Time should be called and points deducted.. Which means 10 points deducted from Ali in 1 round.. He would have fouled out easily if the rules were followed.

I've even seen referees take points if somebody was grabbed 5 or 6 times in a round, which I don't consider to be overzealous.. Every time a referee breaks you the fouler gets to reset from the outside -- which is his objective.. If you're badly hurt you should grab. You're sacrificing a possible point deduction to stay in the fight -- which is your only chance to win.. But grabbing and wrestling as a substitute for an inside game or an inside defense, is bullcrap.. Ali had no body attack or inside game so he fouled his ass off and grabbed one Hell of a lot more than most.. Anthony Joshua hardly grabs at all because his skills are so strong in every facet of the sport.

And those weren’t the only parts of Ali's game that were weak as fuk.

For instance.. Ali had no defense for the left hook.. Banks, Cooper, and Frazier all decked Ali hard with left hooks and Ken Norton shattered Ali's jaw with one.. Frazier ripped Ali with so many left hooks in their 1st fight (Ali was only 29) that Ali looked like he was smuggling a cantaloupe in his jaw.. The swelling was that bad.. If Frazier wasn't such a small, little, short Heavyweight he would have obliterated Ali.. As it is he beat the crap out of Ali.. If you asked Frazier about Ali's physical and neurological condition he would say matter-of-factly, "I did that to Clay." ... He did some of it to Ali for sure, working Ali over pretty good on those ropes when Ali gassed out -- which he was prone to do.

Holmes was a master boxer and a defensive genius.. That's why he still qualified to box Heavyweight Championship Fights against youngsters when he was 45 years old.. Ali was trashed by the time he was 36 – cuz he got hit too much.. Real speed, reflexes and transcendent skills allow you to escape punishment well into your 40’s.. Flashy shoe shine footwork and double-clutch shuffling is bullcrap.. That’s all showmanship and only impresses fanboys like barry.. It has nothing to do with skills or the sweet science.. If you have to lay on the ropes taking punishment, you’re not that skilled.. You’re chin might be "great" but you’re getting hurt bad.. It’s going to wreck your mental and physical health.