Hearns vs McCallum

[Bricks]

I'm not sure anyone under rates him. I do think he may have been under tested....and without a good test, the rating would be left wanting a bit.

Not sure he'd compete with those top names, but you can't rule it out. What was his A#1 win?

His problem is he moans and moans and moans.

He is the ATG of moaning as well as an ATG in the ring...his wins over curry,jackson,kalambay,mcrory,harding,collins, Watson, graham are a fantastic resume and that draw with toney. He also had 2 more fights with toney and a payday v jones jnr

He got his paydays and big fights

He just refuses to accept that everyone and their sister wanted to fight SRL In the 80s but it was very limited tickets to that show. Mccallum isn't the only one.....curry,starling,honeyghan,nunn...all wanted SRL

He didn't get to fight duran or benitez but as far as his cut goes it wouldn't have been more than the curry and jones jnr fights.

so that leaves hearns....who was his stable mate...and who he could have faced if he hadn't lost to kalambay but who was also aiming higher with haggler and srl himself. get over it mike.

That leaves Hagler....this is the one mccallum is most bitter about. And it is ridiculous. Hagler was crying out for big name fighters during 83-86 and was very happy to get the big three. But he also met a dangerous guy like mugabi along the way and Sibson and hamsho and roldan. The fact is he would have fitted in mccallum if mike had stepped it up earlier in his career. He coasted through 84-85 and most of 86.

Mugabi was an unskilled swinger like Julian Jackson... Jackson was spectacular 29-0 puncher with 27 KOs when McCallum ripped him out in 2 rounds with a devastating display of power.. Hagler fought guys coming up in weight: Duran, Hearns, and Leonard.. SRL was 147 for his previous fight when he fought Hagler.. After McCallum's spectacular punchout of Jackson he deserved a shot at Hagler.. He also deserved fights with Hearns, Duran, and SRL.. Leonard went into strategic retirements and was also a strategic World Title Belt abandoner like Canelo..

McCallum got his shot at Toney, and landed the most punches in their draw, but he was 35... The time he should have gotten a shot was 7 years earlier in1984 when they made him fight unknown Sean Mannion for the vacant WBA 154 Title.. Duran abandoned the WBA Title so he wouldn't have to fight McCallum, but they could have given McCallum a better opponent.. Leonard also abandoned the Middleweight Title when Nunn and McCallum were the top contenders.. Ray never defended his 160 belt, but that seems to be all right because he was Sugar Ray.

McCallum was Jamaican, and that didn't help him... If he were an American he would have been treated a little better.

Mugabi in his absolute mid 1980"s prime was a more sophisticated fighter than the jackson of 1986.mugabi had crushed a lot of top ten guys on network tv. Jackson in 86 was a nobody,how the hell did mccallum deserve a shot at hagler in 1986 when there were big money bringing guys like curry,hearns,srl and the undefeated herol graham ?

Reference your constant refrain of "he was jamaican that didnt help him" ....well being jamaican didnt stop other jamaicans,inferior fighters like frank bruno,livingstone bramble and lloyd honeyghan becoming household names in the same mid 1980s timeframe.bramble was box office with his rastafarian persona and colourful ways.other jamaicans of the era razor ruddock,nigel benn ,lennox lewis did not find their jamaicanness held them back.

Mccallum was also with the duvas and fighting regularly on network tv.hell all his fights at 154 were shown on prime time here in the uk! I watched them as a 10 year old kid and was in awe of his skill,power and craftmanship.

I think the kalambay loss ffucked him.i think both hearns and particularly duran would have jumped at a title shot with him to win their fourth crown.consider that carefully.that was the time it made sense...but losing like that and even though mike won a title again in early 1989 by that time both duran and hearns had their 4th title and both wrre on their way to sugar ray paydays.....why would they fight mccallum than for so little reward.

Possibly in 1990 hearns and duran should have fought mccallum but after such rich earnings they didnt.

Duran was also mikes mandatory in 1984 but opted for a big payday with hearns.

Like i say mike is entitled to say he would have beat the fab four,mikes a legend he may well have beat them.but no way they were scared of him

[Kalan]

His problem is he moans and moans and moans.

He is the ATG of moaning as well as an ATG in the ring...his wins over curry,jackson,kalambay,mcrory,harding,collins, Watson, graham are a fantastic resume and that draw with toney. He also had 2 more fights with toney and a payday v jones jnr

He got his paydays and big fights

He just refuses to accept that everyone and their sister wanted to fight SRL In the 80s but it was very limited tickets to that show. Mccallum isn't the only one.....curry,starling,honeyghan,nunn...all wanted SRL

He didn't get to fight duran or benitez but as far as his cut goes it wouldn't have been more than the curry and jones jnr fights.

so that leaves hearns....who was his stable mate...and who he could have faced if he hadn't lost to kalambay but who was also aiming higher with haggler and srl himself. get over it mike.

That leaves Hagler....this is the one mccallum is most bitter about. And it is ridiculous. Hagler was crying out for big name fighters during 83-86 and was very happy to get the big three. But he also met a dangerous guy like mugabi along the way and Sibson and hamsho and roldan. The fact is he would have fitted in mccallum if mike had stepped it up earlier in his career. He coasted through 84-85 and most of 86.

Mugabi was an unskilled swinger like Julian Jackson... Jackson was spectacular 29-0 puncher with 27 KOs when McCallum ripped him out in 2 rounds with a devastating display of power.. Hagler fought guys coming up in weight: Duran, Hearns, and Leonard.. SRL was 147 for his previous fight when he fought Hagler.. After McCallum's spectacular punchout of Jackson he deserved a shot at Hagler.. He also deserved fights with Hearns, Duran, and SRL.. Leonard went into strategic retirements and was also a strategic World Title Belt abandoner like Canelo..

McCallum got his shot at Toney, and landed the most punches in their draw, but he was 35... The time he should have gotten a shot was 7 years earlier in1984 when they made him fight unknown Sean Mannion for the vacant WBA 154 Title.. Duran abandoned the WBA Title so he wouldn't have to fight McCallum, but they could have given McCallum a better opponent.. Leonard also abandoned the Middleweight Title when Nunn and McCallum were the top contenders.. Ray never defended his 160 belt, but that seems to be all right because he was Sugar Ray.

McCallum was Jamaican, and that didn't help him... If he were an American he would have been treated a little better.

Mugabi in his absolute mid 1980"s prime was a more sophisticated fighter than the jackson of 1986.mugabi had crushed a lot of top ten guys on network tv. Jackson in 86 was a nobody,how the hell did mccallum deserve a shot at hagler in 1986 when there were big money bringing guys like curry,hearns,srl and the undefeated herol graham ?

Reference your constant refrain of "he was jamaican that didnt help him" ....well being jamaican didnt stop other jamaicans,inferior fighters like frank bruno,livingstone bramble and lloyd honeyghan becoming household names in the same mid 1980s timeframe.bramble was box office with his rastafarian persona and colourful ways.other jamaicans of the era razor ruddock,nigel benn ,lennox lewis did not find their jamaicanness held them back.

Mccallum was also with the duvas and fighting regularly on network tv.hell all his fights at 154 were shown on prime time here in the uk! I watched them as a 10 year old kid and was in awe of his skill,power and craftmanship.

I think the kalambay loss ffucked him.i think both hearns and particularly duran would have jumped at a title shot with him to win their fourth crown.consider that carefully.that was the time it made sense...but losing like that and even though mike won a title again in early 1989 by that time both duran and hearns had their 4th title and both wrre on their way to sugar ray paydays.....why would they fight mccallum than for so little reward.

Possibly in 1990 hearns and duran should have fought mccallum but after such rich earnings they didnt.

Duran was also mikes mandatory in 1984 but opted for a big payday with hearns.

Like i say mike is entitled to say he would have beat the fab four,mikes a legend he may well have beat them.but no way they were scared of him

Julian Jackson was a much better fighter than the wild swinging Mugabi...

You see, Jackson absolutely CRUSHED Terry Norris... And after that Terry Norris absolutely CRUSHED John Mugabi in the 1st Round... Mugabi later won a World Title but not as a Middleweight, as a 154 pounder... Jackson also CRUSHED Harol Graham to share the World Middleweight Titles with Mike McCallum and Michael Nunn for a while.. The title became more fragmented after Leonard abandoned it.

[Bricks]

You can say with hindsight Julian Jackson was a much better fighter and he crushed terry Norris. And you would be right.

But the Terry Norris destruction was in 1989, the Graham knockout was in 1990 when Herol was already fading. We are talking here about 1986 . Mugabi was at the absolute zenith of his career unbeaten every fight a knockout and he had been featured on nationwide tv in America crushing contender after contender.At the time Julian Jackson was a total unknown his unbeaten record was littered with unknowns.No one knew him or the guys he had fought, getting back to the root of our debate I still contend Mccallum beating this unknown Jackson did not qualify him for a shot at Hagler in 1986 as you suggest.

I would concede that if SRL hadn't come out of retirement, and Hagler had fought a rematch with Hearns instead in late 86 and won and had wanted to continue fighting......and Mike had after beating Jackson went on to beat Curry than yes a Hagler-Mccallum fight would have been of sufficient profile for Marvin.

I would take a 1987 Hagler to still beat Mccallum and it would have been a great fight to see a great fight. Im sure u agree my friend

[magwitch]

Mike has the smarts to avoid the big shots. And he carries his power late in the fight.

My guess is over 15 Mike might catch up with him.

Over 10 Tommy wins.

I know comparatively little about both of these guys. Hearns was a rangey, monster puncher out of the Motor City, and McCallum - The Bodysnatcher - from I don’t know where, was a master boxer, a real top class technician. For that reason, I suppose I will go with Mike McCallum.
Apparently he bossed Michael Watson, who was a very clever fighter - although in his book Watson said he wasn’t ready.....but they always have a reason don’t they?

[Counter-puncher]

Mike has the smarts to avoid the big shots. And he carries his power late in the fight.

My guess is over 15 Mike might catch up with him.

Over 10 Tommy wins.

I know comparatively little about both of these guys. Hearns was a rangey, monster puncher out of the Motor City, and McCallum - The Bodysnatcher - from I don’t know where, was a master boxer, a real top class technician. For that reason, I suppose I will go with Mike McCallum.
Apparently he bossed Michael Watson, who was a very clever fighter - although in his book Watson said he wasn’t ready.....but they always have a reason don’t they?

you're not crediting Hearns as a master boxer?

[magwitch]

Mike has the smarts to avoid the big shots. And he carries his power late in the fight.

My guess is over 15 Mike might catch up with him.

Over 10 Tommy wins.

I know comparatively little about both of these guys. Hearns was a rangey, monster puncher out of the Motor City, and McCallum - The Bodysnatcher - from I don’t know where, was a master boxer, a real top class technician. For that reason, I suppose I will go with Mike McCallum.
Apparently he bossed Michael Watson, who was a very clever fighter - although in his book Watson said he wasn’t ready.....but they always have a reason don’t they?

you're not crediting Hearns as a master boxer?

How many master boxers do you want in a post, they don’t grow on trees?
I don’t know, was he? I suppose I would readily concede that he was more than just a rangey puncher, yes. But I’ve never heard him be regarded by anyone as a boxer of McCallum’s brains.

[Counter-puncher]

quite simply, opposing Hearns and McCallum on the basis of one (mcCallum) being a masterful technical boxer and Hearns something less than that, is bogus. just to name one, Hearns boxed the ears off lightheavyweight boxer Virgil Hill.

[Bricks]

You can say with hindsight Julian Jackson was a much better fighter and he crushed terry Norris. And you would be right.

But the Terry Norris destruction was in 1989, the Graham knockout was in 1990 when Herol was already fading. We are talking here about 1986 . Mugabi was at the absolute zenith of his career unbeaten, every win a KO on nationwide tv in America crushing contender after contender.

At the time Julian Jackson was a total unknown his unbeaten record was littered with unknowns.No one knew him or the guys he had fought, getting back to the root of our debate Mccallum beating this unknown Jackson did not qualify him for a shot at Hagler in 1986 as you suggest.

I would concede that if SRL hadn't come out of retirement, and Hagler had fought a rematch with Hearns instead in late 86 and marvin won and had wanted to continue fighting......than yes a late 1987 Hagler-Mccallum fight would have been of sufficient profile for Marvin.

I would take a 1987 Hagler to still beat Mccallum and it would have been a great fight to see a great fight. Im sure u agree my friend

[Ambling Alp II]

quite simply, opposing Hearns and McCallum on the basis of one (mcCallum) being a masterful technical boxer and Hearns something less than that, is bogus. just to name one, Hearns boxed the ears off lightheavyweight boxer Virgil Hill.

If anyone is a master boxer here, it's Hearns, not McCallum.

[BoxBuzz]

Both Good....Hearns better.

[elmersalsa]

I think that The Body Snatcher was more technically gifted than The Hitman/Motor City Cobra

[BoxBuzz]

I think that The Body Snatcher was more technically gifted than The Hitman/Motor City Cobra

Wouldn't do him any good..as Hearns would win head to head.

[Kalan]

You'd never put money on that... Hearns didn't have the chin to face Mike McCallum... He'd be ripped out faster than 29-0 Julian Jackson.

[BoxBuzz]

You'd never put money on that... Hearns didn't have the chin to face Mike McCallum... He'd be ripped out faster than 29-0 Julian Jackson.

Ya think? you know he'd have to overcome the height advantage Hearns would have. Not to mention the power.

did they have any common opponents?

[Bricks]

I laugh at the foolishness on display here......mccallum was a very good technical boxer but hearns was a league higher.

Hearns outboxed noted technicians benitez and sugar ray leonard and a good virgil hill.

Hearns had blistering hand and foot speed, greater power and a body attack to match. The only area mccallum is,better is chin and tommys chin deficiences really set in in 1988 prior to that he had a decent chin...certainly not one I expect mccallum to dent......by 88 hearns chin had been softened up by hagler,roldan and andries in quick succession. Hearns was never ever outboxed by anyone, even ray and hagler beat him by force and brawling not boxing.

Mccalum on the other hand was outboxed by kalambay,toney and the graham fight but for fouls would have been a draw.these three were very good boxers and mccallum did rematch and beat or draw with them......but they were no peak ray leonard or benitez.add a shot don curry outboxing him for five rounds....never did u see hearns outboxed like that

I laugh at the description of watson as some master boxer.he fought a very poor fight v mccallum led with his face, it was a severe beating mike didnt lose a round.

I wish people would watch fights and fighters before commenting.

Im sure kalans response will be julian jackson.....thats his answer to everything.teehee hee

[Kalan]

You'd never put money on that... Hearns didn't have the chin to face Mike McCallum... He'd be ripped out faster than 29-0 Julian Jackson.

Ya think? you know he'd have to overcome the height advantage Hearns would have. Not to mention the power.

did they have any common opponents?

NO common opponents, but James Toney certainly wanted to fight Hearns ... After Iran Barkley beat Hearns for the 2nd time, Barkley fought Toney -- and he got badly hammered and stopped... After Leonard beat Hagler he abandoned the Middleweight Title rather than fight McCallum or Nunn.. So instead SRL fought guys like the chinny Hearns---a guy who Ray knocked out previsously---as one of his "picks" ... Maybe Ray inspired CanYellow.

[Counter-puncher]

I laugh at the foolishness on display

Mccalum on the other hand was outboxed by kalambay,toney and the graham fight but for fouls would have been a draw


these three were very good boxers and mccallum did rematch and beat or draw with them......
I wish people would watch fights and fighters before commenting.
:

Points of order: McCallum didn't rematch graham, and he didn't draw or beat Toney in his rematch.

[Kalan]

Mccalum on the other hand was outboxed by kalambay,toney and the graham fight

You obviously never watched the McCallum-Graham fight... It was in England and Graham grabbed, held, wrestled, and ran all night... The referee warned him repeated for fouling and hitting on the break after ignoring many of his fouls... Graham actually reached around the referee to punch McCallum on the break... Graham was well out-fought and beaten by McCallum -- and Kalambay was as well.

The Toney-McCallum draw was close.. McCallum landed more punches.. Toney finished stronger and possibly landed harder.. I had McCallum winning, but it was razor close and the best Middleweight fight I've ever seen.

[Kalan]

McCallum was 35 when he fought the draw with Toney... That was his peak and he just didn't have as much when they fought twice more.

[dr_devious]

quite simply, opposing Hearns and McCallum on the basis of one (mcCallum) being a masterful technical boxer and Hearns something less than that, is bogus. just to name one, Hearns boxed the ears off lightheavyweight boxer Virgil Hill.

He also won the majority of rounds he fought against Sugar Ray Leonard

[elmersalsa]

I think that The Body Snatcher was more technically gifted than The Hitman/Motor City Cobra

Wouldn't do him any good..as Hearns would win head to head.

I'm not too sure about that. It's a toss up for me.

[Kalan]

Virgil Hill was a feather hitter... And Roy Jones knocked Hill out with one shot in an early round... Hearns couldn't stop him.

[gilgamesh]

Virgil Hill was a feather hitter... And Roy Jones knocked Hill out with one shot in an early round... Hearns couldn't stop him.

Hearns was also 5 weight classes above his best fighting weight, and well past his prime when he fought Virgil Hill. For some reason though you always fail to grasp that fighters...like everybody else, age and at some point aren't quite what they once were. You're the only person I've ever seen who will hold a poor performance from an old fighter against him the same as you would if he was in his physical prime.

The fact that Hearns beat Virgil Hill at all at the time they fought is one of the more incredible feats of Hearns' career.

[BoxBuzz]

different subject, but that just reminded why Holmes was a fringe champ at best.

He got knocked down by Butterbean. Which is very important. It was Holmes most important fight.

And let's not forget that Tiozzo beat McCallum but lost twice to Virgil Hill.

That makes Hill way better than McCallum and reinstates Hearns as better than McCallum.



By the way....what are the astronomical odds that Hearns and McCallum did not have a single competitor in common?

Boom.....My brain just blew up.

[Kalan]

Wow... there's cerebellum all over the place... The fact is, Hearns was younger than McCallum but didn't want to fight many of the guys McCallum fought.

Didn't want to fight Toney---who dispatched his tormentor Iran Barkley with ease... Didn't want to fight Roy Jones, who dispatched Virgil Hill with ease... Didn't want to fight Julian Jackson -- who dispatched Terry Norris with ease... who dispatched Leonard with ease... who dispatched Hearns.