BoxRec

ikorolev wrote:

Tanzio wrote:SOGgy has FMJ type pop. He surprises people and catches them with shots unseen. He can dig hard to the body and mug on the inside.

Why couldn't he surprise the super-star Paul Smith ?

You've got to be kidding me.

Tanzio wrote:

ikorolev wrote:

Tanzio wrote:SOGgy has FMJ type pop. He surprises people and catches them with shots unseen. He can dig hard to the body and mug on the inside.

Why couldn't he surprise the super-star Paul Smith ?

You've got to be kidding me.

He outboxed Smith using better technique, speed and reflexes. He didn't surprise him with pop or anything special.

ikorolev wrote:

Tanzio wrote:

ikorolev wrote: Why couldn't he surprise the super-star Paul Smith ?

You've got to be kidding me.

He outboxed Smith using better technique, speed and reflexes. He didn't surprise him with pop or anything special.

Look, I've been as critical of SOGgy as most, but he showed plenty special, though he definitely seemed a bit rusty.

We will see v Barrera.

BAD INTENTIONS wrote: It almost always does ... but it's a regular enough occurrence that I agree with you.

Some people think that boxing is a video game. More power, speed and stamina means you win.
But styles make fights. Ward fights with a style made to beat come forward pressure fighters.

Also, Ward like Hopkins and Floyd, are stronger than people think.

Or Kovalev wins by KO ... but I think Ward will win 10-2 or a shutout.

Again, I'm gonna need more detail on this fabulous style matchup in favour of Ward. I don't get it. I want to get it; I want all the info before my betting happens. I am open to changing my mind. I just can't see it.

'Ward fights with a style made to beat come forward pressure fighters' is really very vague. First, it makes assumptions about Kovalev neatly fitting into the platitudinally standard 'one dimensional pressure fighter/puncher' criteria. Like he's Kelly Pavlik or something. and despite the fountain of knowledge that is Senor Pipino insisting otherwise, Kovalev is on a different planet to guys like that.

Second, you've got to consider how the fight plays out. The 'Ward will outbox him' brigade are in that weird mindset of 'skills trump power and strength' without thinking about or understanding how Ward is going to apply his skills in the context of the matchup. IE, his first problem is dealing with the volume and power coming at him for every second of every round, as well as the underrated speed, the thudding jab, the angles, the movement, the varied artillery of Kovalev. To deal with that, he needs to lower the output of Kovalev because he is never going to match the Russian for workrate and make it out of the ring via anything other than a stretcher. That would be going toe to toe.

We saw Hopkins use movement and feints to make Kovalev throw less than he normally does, but this didn't allow Bernard to stay out of trouble while he found openings, rather it just made Sergey more patient and selective with his punches. We saw a controlled Kovalev still cutting off the ring and bossing the fight, and still making his opponent use up energy, even with a lower output. It was the same Kovalev, and he won every single round. Easily.

Additionally, Hopkins suggested that Sergey was difficult to land punches on. He said words to the effect of 'I tried to time him but he would take a step back and I would have to readjust'. Kovalev is very adept at managing distance and screwing with his opponent's timing and this lends itself to a great defense as well as a great offense. Something the 'BUT HE'S JUST A PUNCHER LOLZ' crew overlook.

So Ward has lowered the output of Kovalev with his movement and feints. I thought he could do that. Congratulations. Now he needs to find a way of outlanding him and all the while being willing to take shots himself. He's not throwing many combinations. He's not winning with single shots. He's not knocking Sergey out. And, conversely to what some people believe, he's not winning by 'tying up and frustrating' Kovalev 'in the clinches'. And, he's not winning because 'BUT LOOK AT THE QUALITY OF GUYS HE HAS BEATEN BEFORE! So how is he winning?

Riddick Blowe wrote:Again, I'm gonna need more detail on this fabulous style matchup in favour of Ward. I don't get it. I want to get it; I want all the info before my betting happens. I am open to changing my mind. I just can't see it.

'Ward fights with a style made to beat come forward pressure fighters' is really very vague. First, it makes assumptions about Kovalev neatly fitting into the platitudinally standard 'one dimensional pressure fighter/puncher' criteria. Like he's Kelly Pavlik or something. and despite the fountain of knowledge that is Senor Pipino insisting otherwise, Kovalev is on a different planet to guys like that.

Second, you've got to consider how the fight plays out. The 'Ward will outbox him' brigade are in that weird mindset of 'skills trump power and strength' without thinking about or understanding how Ward is going to apply his skills in the context of the matchup. IE, his first problem is dealing with the volume and power coming at him for every second of every round, as well as the underrated speed, the thudding jab, the angles, the movement, the varied artillery of Kovalev. To deal with that, he needs to lower the output of Kovalev because he is never going to match the Russian for workrate and make it out of the ring via anything other than a stretcher. That would be going toe to toe.

We saw Hopkins use movement and feints to make Kovalev throw less than he normally does, but this didn't allow Bernard to stay out of trouble while he found openings, rather it just made Sergey more patient and selective with his punches. We saw a controlled Kovalev still cutting off the ring and bossing the fight, and still making his opponent use up energy, even with a lower output. It was the same Kovalev, and he won every single round. Easily.

Additionally, Hopkins suggested that Sergey was difficult to land punches on. He said words to the effect of 'I tried to time him but he would take a step back and I would have to readjust'. Kovalev is very adept at managing distance and screwing with his opponent's timing and this lends itself to a great defense as well as a great offense. Something the 'BUT HE'S JUST A PUNCHER LOLZ' crew overlook.

So Ward has lowered the output of Kovalev with his movement and feints. I thought he could do that. Congratulations. Now he needs to find a way of outlanding him and all the while being willing to take shots himself. He's not throwing many combinations. He's not winning with single shots. He's not knocking Sergey out. And, conversely to what some people believe, he's not winning by 'tying up and frustrating' Kovalev 'in the clinches'. And, he's not winning because 'BUT LOOK AT THE QUALITY OF GUYS HE HAS BEATEN BEFORE! So how is he winning?

A better version of Bernard Hopkins was clearly beaten (more convincing than Calzaghe) by Chad Dawson.
So, while I also rate Kovalev's win highly, let's not get carried away translating that success to Ward.

I've heard all of the same arguments before, in every situation like this.
I'll give you some respect though. You're taking the Kovalev will outbox Ward route.
Which is pretty ballsy because most people can't see that.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

BAD INTENTIONS wrote: It almost always does ... but it's a regular enough occurrence that I agree with you.

Some people think that boxing is a video game. More power, speed and stamina means you win.
But styles make fights. Ward fights with a style made to beat come forward pressure fighters.

Also, Ward like Hopkins and Floyd, are stronger than people think.

Or Kovalev wins by KO ... but I think Ward will win 10-2 or a shutout.

Again, I'm gonna need more detail on this fabulous style matchup in favour of Ward. I don't get it. I want to get it; I want all the info before my betting happens. I am open to changing my mind. I just can't see it.

'Ward fights with a style made to beat come forward pressure fighters' is really very vague. First, it makes assumptions about Kovalev neatly fitting into the platitudinally standard 'one dimensional pressure fighter/puncher' criteria. Like he's Kelly Pavlik or something. and despite the fountain of knowledge that is Senor Pipino insisting otherwise, Kovalev is on a different planet to guys like that.

Second, you've got to consider how the fight plays out. The 'Ward will outbox him' brigade are in that weird mindset of 'skills trump power and strength' without thinking about or understanding how Ward is going to apply his skills in the context of the matchup. IE, his first problem is dealing with the volume and power coming at him for every second of every round, as well as the underrated speed, the thudding jab, the angles, the movement, the varied artillery of Kovalev. To deal with that, he needs to lower the output of Kovalev because he is never going to match the Russian for workrate and make it out of the ring via anything other than a stretcher. That would be going toe to toe.

We saw Hopkins use movement and feints to make Kovalev throw less than he normally does, but this didn't allow Bernard to stay out of trouble while he found openings, rather it just made Sergey more patient and selective with his punches. We saw a controlled Kovalev still cutting off the ring and bossing the fight, and still making his opponent use up energy, even with a lower output. It was the same Kovalev, and he won every single round. Easily.

Additionally, Hopkins suggested that Sergey was difficult to land punches on. He said words to the effect of 'I tried to time him but he would take a step back and I would have to readjust'. Kovalev is very adept at managing distance and screwing with his opponent's timing and this lends itself to a great defense as well as a great offense. Something the 'BUT HE'S JUST A PUNCHER LOLZ' crew overlook.

So Ward has lowered the output of Kovalev with his movement and feints. I thought he could do that. Congratulations. Now he needs to find a way of outlanding him and all the while being willing to take shots himself. He's not throwing many combinations. He's not winning with single shots. He's not knocking Sergey out. And, conversely to what some people believe, he's not winning by 'tying up and frustrating' Kovalev 'in the clinches'. And, he's not winning because 'BUT LOOK AT THE QUALITY OF GUYS HE HAS BEATEN BEFORE! So how is he winning?

In addition I felt Kovalev had a lot of respect for Hopkins, and rightfully so. On the one hand he's brutal and would have wanted to be the first to KO him, as is his nature. When it came down to it I think he held back from doing that just out of pure respect for the man.

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:A better version of Bernard Hopkins was clearly beaten (more convincing than Calzaghe) by Chad Dawson.
So, while I also rate Kovalev's win highly, let's not get carried away translating that success to Ward.

Comparing the win to Dawson is unfair because so many of Hopkins' contests have been subject to the age-old mantra of 'styles make fights'. Kovalev's come forward style was supposed to be the right one for Bernard to deal with if he was going to upset the odds, unlike Dawson. Bernard was still a top 10 guy with wins over decent contenders going in with Sergey. Many folks had it a close fight before the event. Sergey dominated him every single round, and would have clowned the 2006 Bernard too that had just moved to 175.

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:
I've heard all of the same arguments before, in every situation like this.

Any yet all you have to counter them is 'Uh, Ward will, like, use his skills because Kovalev is just a puncher'

I'll give you some respect though. You're taking the Kovalev will outbox Ward route.
Which is pretty ballsy because most people can't see that.

Outbox, outpunch, outeverything. You have this narrative in your mind that goes 'Either Ward outboxes him or Kovalev knocks him out'. No doubt with an image of Kovalev missing wildly, getting frustrated and walking onto shots (because as a puncher taking on a boxer that's wut happens LOLZ). But Kovalev is going to outbox him in the simplest sense of landing a lot of hard shots and not getting hit in return, until it's stopped. How much punishment Ward can take at this stage is anyone's guess. I don't think very much.

Roars Like Me wrote:
In addition I felt Kovalev had a lot of respect for Hopkins, and rightfully so. On the one hand he's brutal and would have wanted to be the first to KO him, as is his nature. When it came down to it I think he held back from doing that just out of pure respect for the man.

Not sure about this, Kovalev was very measured and economical with his punches but it was due to Bernard just lowering Sergey's output with his feints and movement rather than respect, he was going all out in that last round and had Hopkins out on his feet.

I'd attribute it more to caution/not wanting to somehow lose to an old man than to being stymied by feints or movement. I like Hopkins, but I think the truth is that a going-all-out Kovalev could've absolutely beaten him to a pulp.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:A better version of Bernard Hopkins was clearly beaten (more convincing than Calzaghe) by Chad Dawson.
So, while I also rate Kovalev's win highly, let's not get carried away translating that success to Ward.

Comparing the win to Dawson is unfair because so many of Hopkins' contests have been subject to the age-old mantra of 'styles make fights'. Kovalev's come forward style was supposed to be the right one for Bernard to deal with if he was going to upset the odds, unlike Dawson. Bernard was still a top 10 guy with wins over decent contenders going in with Sergey. Many folks had it a close fight before the event. Sergey dominated him every single round, and would have clowned the 2006 Bernard too that had just moved to 175.

BAD INTENTIONS wrote:
I've heard all of the same arguments before, in every situation like this.

Any yet all you have to counter them is 'Uh, Ward will, like, use his skills because Kovalev is just a puncher'

I'll give you some respect though. You're taking the Kovalev will outbox Ward route.
Which is pretty ballsy because most people can't see that.

Outbox, outpunch, outeverything.

Roars Like Me wrote:
In addition I felt Kovalev had a lot of respect for Hopkins, and rightfully so. On the one hand he's brutal and would have wanted to be the first to KO him, as is his nature. When it came down to it I think he held back from doing that just out of pure respect for the man.

Not sure about this, Kovalev was very measured and economical with his punches but it was due to Bernard just lowering Sergey's output with his feints and movement rather than respect, he was going all out in that last round and had Hopkins out on his feet.

Indeed unlike Kovalev not to finish off an opponent imo