Is Anthony Joshua English?

[Sklar]

Do Scotland have a professional soccer scene (I don't follow the game)? I'm guessing not, I'd have heard of Edinburgh United in passing, I think.

[mickey1975]

I'm with Git on this. People from the West Country for instance, might as well be from another country for me.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

I think what FG is getting at is that being English or 'Englishness' is a chaotic concept inasmuch as there is not a clear, unified English identity. Although you could also argue this is the case for many, perhaps most, other nationalities.

Exactly, I have always said - that I have more in common culturally with someone from the western suburbs of Sydney Australia than someone from Essex, in our ways, sports, hobbies, how we spend social time. Scousers see their kith and kin with the people of Glasgow and Dublin - they aren't English - Yorkshire people see themselves with their own distinct identity and I daresay Londoners do too - I doubt there are many Londonders who seen Northerners as their identical cultural brethren - I don't see Londoners as mine.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

I'm with Git on this. People from the West Country for instance, might as well be from another country for me.

Absolutely, what Tuan Jim doesn't understand is that people are tribal - some people are more tribal than others, I would say Scousers are the most tribal group of people in the modern world, but they all loved John Conteh because they saw him as one of their own even though he wasn't the same colour as most of them.

Hatred through skin colour has to be indoctrinated from a very young age, why doesn't it come natural to most people? Because most people are tribal and their traditional enemies who they hate the most are usually the same colour of skin as themselves, if we look at Northern Ireland - the Protestants and Catholics have this tribal rivalry but they are all (or mostly) white, same with Tutsis and the Hutus who are all black, the Xhosa and the Zulus - again who are black, the Shia and the Shi-ite's are all Arabs -

The argument Tuan Jim is throwing up 'we are all one because we are white and English' is bollocks, English identity is a really recent political invention and man made (German national identity is around 150 years old, as is Italian national identity) , and like most national identities, cannot erase the true tribal identity of man.

[Counter-puncher]

I would say Scousers are the most tribal group of people in the modern world, .

come on, mate. they're hardly Pashtun tribesdmen or Bedu....

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

I would say Scousers are the most tribal group of people in the modern world, .

come on, mate. they're hardly Pashtun tribesdmen or Bedu....

Give them a solid mountain range and a few AK-47's, I bet they would give the Pashtun a run for their money.

(I was originally going to say Europe but I thought... why not run it along with a bit of bombast!)

[Counter-puncher]

I think what FG is getting at is that being English or 'Englishness' is a chaotic concept inasmuch as there is not a clear, unified English identity. Although you could also argue this is the case for many, perhaps most, other nationalities.

Exactly, I have always said - that I have more in common culturally with someone from the western suburbs of Sydney Australia than someone from Essex, in our ways, sports, hobbies, how we spend social time. Scousers see their kith and kin with the people of Glasgow and Dublin - they aren't English - Yorkshire people see themselves with their own distinct identity and I daresay Londoners do too - I doubt there are many Londonders who seen Northerners as their identical cultural brethren - I don't see Londoners as mine.

Berwick-upon-Tweed is an interesting one. It's on the north side of the Tweed and, although officially in Northumberland, and therefore English, has the look and feel of a Scottish town and has changed hands between the English and Scots many times over the years. A lot of people there regard themselves specifically as Berwickers, rather than English or Scottish though.

A similar thing with Chepstow, I believe. A referred to this lad as Welsh and he got a bit shirty with me and said he was from Monmouthshire, not Wales.

By the way, Berwick is apparently still officially at war with Russia, I believe. There's some historical anomaly about the town's status that meant it wasn't included in some peace treaty between Britain and Russia back in the days of Tsars.

I'm sure AJ could negotiate the peace if necessary though.

camp eddie sell the peace talks on PPV

[danamba7]

Yes

[Tuan_Jim]

Because you're spouting irrelevancies.

They are only irrelevancies because they counter your silly claims, they are not irrelevancies at all.

I listed a series of epochal events that took place over a thousand years on English soil, shaping the English culture and character.

There isn't an 'English culture and character' this is ridiculous, anyone that has a basic knowledge of England knows this, do you think a Scouser and a Cockney see themselves as the same? No. Does a Geordie and someone from Dorest see themselves as the same, no they don't. I can tell you right now that most people in my part of England would probably say they have more in common with people in Sydney Australia than they do with someone from Essex, and there is gravitas to that claim.

Most Scousers think they are culturally akin to people in Glasgow - there isn't a uniform English culture and character, it does not exist and it never ever has.

You offered an army of colonial subjects, fighting in the 20th century, on a different continent(!), as something that shaped the English character.

We would have been defeated if it wasn't for the Indian army, fact.

It didn't. You even said Great Britain wouldn't exist without them,

Correct.

which is a fiction.

Not according to Max Hastings, Anthony Beevor or any military historian worth their salt. I don't think you are in their league.

And then, evidently desperate, you listed petty regional differences to deny an English character,

They aren't - the Lancashire-Yorkshire rivalry has been going on for centures, same with Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire, Liverpool and Manchester began in the dawn of the industrial revolution.

It is the same in Spain by the way, if you said to a Catalan, A Basque, an Andalucian and someone from Extremadura about 'a Spanish character' they would laugh in your face, if you told a Walloon and a Flemish person about 'A Belgian character' they would laugh at you, again same with someone from Venice and someone from Naples having a common Italian character and culture, someone from Bavaria and someone from Flensburg having the same German character and culture - it is ridiculous, no-one would agree with any of that but you seem to think that exists in England when it certainly does not. In your imagination it might.

even though such differences are true of every country on earth.

Exactly, meaning that national identity is artificial and false and most certainly man made, every national border that exists has been drawn up by someone. Those national boundaries could disappear tomorrow and your national identity will have then gone up in smoke, remember Rhodesia? Their national identity went up in smoke, just like those nice people in East Germany - they were proud of being East German and Rhodesian but no one gives a poo when it is time for the status quo to change. And to base it on skin colour - do you understand why people on here are calling you out on it?

You don't like my point but my point is pure cold indifferent reality while your argument is emotional, irrational, agenda driven babble. Trying to disprove an English history and character by rattling off short-lived fall out countries? Everything you write strengthens my post, such is history.

Your problem is that you have a bad bad knowledge of history.

And a bad bad bad knowlege of history of other countries.

If you went and asked a Londoner, a Scouser, a Geordie, a Yorkshireman and a Cornish person if they see themselves as identical with identical cultures, they would laugh at you, like I am doing now.

Once again you're vomiting up your trifles. I spoke of the peoples who comprised the English and some events that shaped what we are, our rule of law and culture and all you can do is present the more backward elements who dislike someone for an accent. It's irrelevant. And wow - East Germany was happy to see the wall come down? I wonder why that was! I also wonder what mental gymnastics are at play when the brief life & death of a communist hellhole is used as a point of comparison with nearly two-thousand years of an English history. If you want to believe the English are a myth, I really don't care. Believe the sky is green if you so please. What difference does it make?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Once again you're vomiting up your trifles. I spoke of the peoples who comprised the English and some events that shaped what we are,

'English' is a political identity - it is completely artificial and it can disappear at any time, it is funny that there's no-one here that agrees with you. No-one has come on here and has said you are correct.

our rule of law

Which came from the French, which is why most British legalese is actually French.

and culture

Which has come from all around the globe, even the word 'culture' derives from the French language.

and all you can do is present the more backward elements who dislike someone for an accent.

Accent, I have not mentioned accent at all, I have mentioned identity and that people are tribal and that all nation states are artificial.

It's irrelevant.

It is to you, because your argument is being smashed up.

And wow - East Germany was happy to see the wall come down?

Yeah, but there might have been people who wouldn't have been. Who cares what you think, have you not noticed by now, it isn't about you.

I wonder why that was! I also wonder what mental gymnastics are at play when the brief life & death of a communist hellhole

Have you ever been there? No, you have not.

is used as a point of comparison with nearly two-thousand years of an English history

Now it is 2000 years of English history? You don't even know the history of your own land, some history buff you are. But you know, before they turned up at around AD 450 - there were Aboriginal Britons living in what is known as modern day England and there even today, there are aboriginal 'English' people who are of the land - the Cumbrians, Cornish people - their ancestry and their presence goes back a lot further than 2000 years, all this is accessible by reading a history book.

If you want to believe the English are a myth,

No, it is an artificial concept, one that most people don't use for identity purposes - the concept of Englishness exists but is man made.

I really don't care. Believe the sky is green if you so please. What difference does it make?

I think you will find you believe something a bit more ridiculous than the sky is green. Again, read a history book.

[Tuan_Jim]

Once again you're vomiting up your trifles. I spoke of the peoples who comprised the English and some events that shaped what we are,

'English' is a political identity - it is completely artificial and it can disappear at any time, it is funny that there's no-one here that agrees with you. No-one has come on here and has said you are correct.

our rule of law

Which came from the French, which is why most British legalese is actually French.

and culture

Which has come from all around the globe, even the word 'culture' derives from the French language.

and all you can do is present the more backward elements who dislike someone for an accent.

Accent, I have not mentioned accent at all, I have mentioned identity and that people are tribal and that all nation states are artificial.

It's irrelevant.

It is to you, because your argument is being smashed up.

And wow - East Germany was happy to see the wall come down?

Yeah, but there might have been people who wouldn't have been. Who cares what you think, have you not noticed by now, it isn't about you.

I wonder why that was! I also wonder what mental gymnastics are at play when the brief life & death of a communist hellhole

Have you ever been there? No, you have not.

is used as a point of comparison with nearly two-thousand years of an English history

Now it is 2000 years of English history? You don't even know the history of your own land, some history buff you are. But you know, before they turned up at around AD 450 - there were Aboriginal Britons living in what is known as modern day England and there even today, there are aboriginal 'English' people who are of the land - the Cumbrians, Cornish people - their ancestry and their presence goes back a lot further than 2000 years, all this is accessible by reading a history book.

If you want to believe the English are a myth,

No, it is an artificial concept, one that most people don't use for identity purposes - the concept of Englishness exists but is man made.

I really don't care. Believe the sky is green if you so please. What difference does it make?

I think you will find you believe something a bit more ridiculous than the sky is green. Again, read a history book.

No one agrees with me? Have you looked at the poll?

Again, I gave a list of the people & events who forged the English and so far to rebut this history you have, in a series of incoherent arguments, pointed to an army of colonial subjects fighting on a different continent in the 20thc. You have cited some short-lived hellhole countries whose collapse has no relation to an English culture or character. And you've spoken of people from different cities & claimed they feel alien from their countrymen in other cities, therefore there is no such thing as English, like a man who can't see the wood for the trees. In order to mask the absurdity of your arguments, and because none of it disproves what I wrote, you need to employ continual playground insults, deliberately misinterpret what I've said with nauseating semantics (why counter with 'ha! that's French!' when I acknowledged Normans were among the people we ingested in my opening post? Why say 'ha! don't you know about the Britons!' when I have already mentioned the Britons?), and spout further irrelevancies & employ them as if they are somehow damning like an overexcited schoolchild ('you haven't even been to east Germany!' - yes I have, not that it matters / 'look! people are agreeing with me!' - yes, people who disagree with me about everything. Who cares?)

These are the actions of a man with no sound argument. Rather than directing me to read a history book, why don't you read a history of England? They don't have emoticons but I'm sure you can get your head round them.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

No one agrees with me? Have you looked at the poll?

The poll proves, what does it prove?

Yeah, nearly 100 people say you are WRONG, that takes some doing. I'll remind you again when person no.100 says you are talking farking bollix.

Again, I gave a list of the people & events who forged the English

It means nothing, English is a political identity, there aren't many people who describe themselves English before their regional identity which is more important, and more importantly, far older than the concept of England - are we getting somewhere?

and so far to rebut this history you have, in a series of incoherent arguments, pointed to an army of colonial subjects

Colonial subjects?

Do you know they all were British citizens, Indians, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Rhodesians - up until 1948, the passport they held was the same one that a person born in the UK was issued. This 'colonial subject' crap is more nonsense from someone who frankly does not know what they are talking about.

fighting on a different continent in the 20thc.

Indian troops fought in Europe - in Italy and Greece, Indian airmen fought in the Battle of Britain.

You have cited some short-lived hellhole countries whose collapse has no relation to an English culture or character.

East Germany (or West Germany - that lasted just as long) many people would say Germany has many similarities with England. I would agree to be honest - where do you think those wonderful Angles and the Saxons came from? They didn't erupt out of the ground in Norfolk from an egg... like the character 'Monkey Magic'

And you've spoken of people from different cities & claimed they feel alien from their countrymen in other cities, therefore there is no such thing as English

There is no such thing as a unified, common English identity, no - there is no such thing, that is why a Geordie feels they have as much in common with someone in Dorset than they do with someone in New Zealand.

like a man who can't see the wood for the trees.

That would be you, projection they call it.

In order to mask the absurdity of your arguments, and because none of it disproves what I wrote, you need to employ continual playground insults, deliberately misinterpret what I've said with nauseating semantics (why counter with 'ha! that's French!' when I acknowledged Normans were among the people we ingested in my opening post?

Because there was no 'English Law' before the Normans came, that's why. Look it up, that isn't a question of semantics, that is being academically dishonest to claim that there was 'English Law' before the French came and implemented a legal system in England. Unless you want to say that the French and the English are the same?

Why say 'ha! don't you know about the Britons!' when I have already mentioned the Britons?),

But they are Ancient Britons - not English! The English were the tribe of Angles who came from Southern Denmark/Northern Germany - the Ancient Britons were exactly that, and they were living on those islands more than 'nearly 2000 years' it is completely wrong to talk about the culture of the people of those islands as starting in 450 AD.

The ancient Britons include the Welsh, there is no mention of them, I don't know why.

and spout further irrelevancies & employ them as if they are somehow damning like an overexcited schoolchild ('you haven't even been to east Germany!' - yes I have, not that it matters / 'look! people are agreeing with me!' - yes, people who disagree with me about everything. Who cares?)

nearly 100 people say you talk shite. That is a lot bwana.

These are the actions of a man with no sound argument. Rather than directing me to read a history book, why don't you read a history of England? They don't have emoticons but I'm sure you can get your head round them.

'Colonial subjects... nyehnyehnyeh'

'English law... nyehnyehnyeh'

'16 people agree with me out of 160 people... nyehnyehnyeh'

'Unified English identity... nyehnyehnyeh'

Wrap up man...

[magwitch]

A recent thread has highlighted how different people view things.

Reggaereggae & TunaJim think that only white people can be English. Obviously there's a lot of views on this. Both these gents have views & I respect what they think.

I disagree. However, I am open minded enough to admit to being wrong so let's see what the poll says.

But this poll doesn't mean anyone is wrong. I just want to know if I am alone in thinking that non-whites can call themselves "British"

Well Britain might have a looked after ourselves in a couple of wars (2 World Wars and one World Cup and that) but I think that was largely aided by others, such as Russia and the US...but before that we’ve been turned over a good few times.
I think ... and I could have this wrong...that the Celts are the most “British” of the British, and I think some religious tensions have their roots in that.
After that we’ve been done by Germans French Scandinavians (probably) so really there’s no such thing as ‘pure English/ British’. And really, how important is it?

[keirw]

The Normans themselves didn't really consider themselves French, their Norse ancesters only swore fealty to the French because it secured them the right to settle in the ripe and fertile part of northern France that became known as Normandy.
Many medieval Normans felt closer to the people of England than they did the people of France due to their Nordic ancestry.
Much of northern and western France (including Normandy) were ruled and settled by the English during the hundred year war.

But it has no direct bearing on how they see themselves today, they are French, as France is their home, regardless of where their ancestors came from.

And the same applies to the British.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Thing is lads, I think you've both got a point to an extent.

Arguably, there are a bundle of characteristics, traits, attitudes and values, etc. that many people associate with the English, and politically there is obviously an England.

But it's complicated and varied and there are many different ways of being English and significant regional differences exist across the country - geographically, socially, culturally, etc.

Personally, I'm not that into identity politics anyway. I'm more interested in material differences and commonalities, and I think I've probably got more in common with many Welsh, Irish or various other European people people than with a fellow Englishman like, say, David Cameron or Boris Johnson (both of who are ethnically mixed, at least to a certain extent, anyway).

This is a very good point actually.

I went to a university in Wales and I would hear from the locals - at the university - how they hated the 'English' (and there were a lot of students from the West Country that went there) but not me, they would go to pains to state how I was alright and then one day, there was this brazen loud women with a posh English accent shouting in the library and the bloke next to me said 'that is the kind of English person I hate'.

So we got talking about it and what he hated and the rest of the Welsh he knew was that braying upper class Home Counties twit, the kind of person who would get a short shift in Lancashire and Yorkshire as well I imagine - and what it all boiled down to was class, and I told him that my community and his in South Wales had more or less everything in common - rugby, coal mines, heavy industry, Labour voting and working mens clubs, male voice choirs, the houses, the friendliness and community spirit.

I felt very much at home in Swansea, it was like a home from home from Wigan - the only real difference was that there was a beach. - but it was the same people living there except they were 'Welsh' and I was 'English'.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

The Normans themselves didn't really consider themselves French, their Norse ancesters only swore fealty to the French because it secured them the right to settle in the ripe and fertile part of northern France that became known as Normandy.
Many medieval Normans felt closer to the people of England than they did the people of France due to their Nordic ancestry.
Much of northern and western France (including Normandy) were ruled and settled by the English during the hundred year war.

But it has no direct bearing on how they see themselves today, they are French, as France is their home, regardless of where their ancestors came from.

And the same applies to the British.

Indeed - but Tuan Jim is talking about 'English Law' and that law came directly from France - now though the Normans and the English were descended from the same people, the Normans brought over novel, foreign concepts to England such as a legal system, something that was tried and failed to take off under the rule of King Alfred.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

A recent thread has highlighted how different people view things.

Reggaereggae & TunaJim think that only white people can be English. Obviously there's a lot of views on this. Both these gents have views & I respect what they think.

I disagree. However, I am open minded enough to admit to being wrong so let's see what the poll says.

But this poll doesn't mean anyone is wrong. I just want to know if I am alone in thinking that non-whites can call themselves "British"

Well Britain might have a looked after ourselves in a couple of wars (2 World Wars and one World Cup and that) but I think that was largely aided by others, such as Russia and the US...but before that we’ve been turned over a good few times.
I think ... and I could have this wrong...that the Celts are the most “British” of the British, and I think some religious tensions have their roots in that.
After that we’ve been done by Germans French Scandinavians (probably) so really there’s no such thing as ‘pure English/ British’. And really, how important is it?

The Welsh, Manx, Cornish and Cumbrians - their languages are labelled as 'Brythonic' Celtic languages which is another meaning for 'British' and they are the aboriginal settlers of these islands.

They did a DNA snouting recently and found most 'English' people are of that DNA anyway - which has similarities to Basque DNA, apart from the coastal areas and areas with high Celtic populations (such as Liverpool) there is very little in the way of Anglo Saxon DNA.

[mickey1975]

Speaking to Scottish customers at the time of the referendum, none had a problem with the north of England, it was the south east they wanted to break from.

[magwitch]

The Romans had a bloody good foothold in the UK too. In fact Chester was once the biggest army garrison in Europe....maybe even the world.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Speaking to Scottish customers at the time of the referendum, none had a problem with the north of England, it was the south east they wanted to break from.

Good point right there, Mickey.

Remember that? When there was that campaign that got going that asked Scotland to take on the North of England if they got full independence from Westminster, tens of thousands signed it - it was probably said tongue in cheek by a lot of people but it puts this 'English common identity' bollix to the sword.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

The Romans had a bloody good foothold in the UK too. In fact Chester was once the biggest army garrison in Europe....maybe even the world.

The Romans were in England for 500 years, longer than a lot of people realise.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Thing is lads, I think you've both got a point to an extent.

Arguably, there are a bundle of characteristics, traits, attitudes and values, etc. that many people associate with the English, and politically there is obviously an England.

But it's complicated and varied and there are many different ways of being English and significant regional differences exist across the country - geographically, socially, culturally, etc.

Personally, I'm not that into identity politics anyway. I'm more interested in material differences and commonalities, and I think I've probably got more in common with many Welsh, Irish or various other European people people than with a fellow Englishman like, say, David Cameron or Boris Johnson (both of who are ethnically mixed, at least to a certain extent, anyway).

This is a very good point actually.

I went to a university in Wales and I would hear from the locals - at the university - how they hated the 'English' (and there were a lot of students from the West Country that went there) but not me, they would go to pains to state how I was alright and then one day, there was this brazen loud women with a posh English accent shouting in the library and the bloke next to me said 'that is the kind of English person I hate'.

So we got talking about it and what he hated and the rest of the Welsh he knew was that braying upper class Home Counties twit, the kind of person who would get a short shift in Lancashire and Yorkshire as well I imagine - and what it all boiled down to was class, and I told him that my community and his in South Wales had more or less everything in common - rugby, coal mines, heavy industry, Labour voting and working mens clubs, male voice choirs, the houses, the friendliness and community spirit.

I felt very much at home in Swansea, it was like a home from home from Wigan - the only real difference was that there was a beach. - but it was the same people living there except they were 'Welsh' and I was 'English'.

Exactly

To me, 'where you're from' isn't so much about geography or political boundaries but the way you were brought up, and the material conditions around you. Or as you put it, social class.

You know the funny thing though, my 'fellow' English people saw me as something completely alien, like they would if they had met an Australian for the first time, they would remark on my accent or sometimes take the piss out of it, or remark they have never been as far north as 'xyz' and had no intention of doing so.

Whereas the Welsh - they saw me as the same as them - accent and all.

[SNG]

Yeah, it's a bit like how I don't hate the Welsh. Except for their rugby fans.

[ILikeBeer]

I voted Don't Care.

He what he considers himself to be, and I can't say I care enough on the issue to even have an opinion on it.

[ILikeBeer]

Frankie Boyle once described cricket as a homosexual martial art He also once tweeted 'Ireland has a cricket team?' 'This is like cool runnings'

Hilarious.