Is this a weak era for middleweights or is 3G making it look weak. I favour the latter to some extent. Without 3G we'd say the division was stacked as every name in the top 10 could face off and give each other problems.
But with 3G those thoughts go out the window.
The fact we're comparing Golovkin to Marvellous Marvin means we already think of him as belonging in that category. Which (let me remind you) is ATG.
I agree. Why most of the people on this site have some a hard time with applying ATG to what GGG is doing is beyond me. If it all ended today for GGG, you would have to already classify him as one of the best Middleweights in the history of boxing. No middleweight has done this....ever. Why the hesitation? It would be one thing if he were doing a Floyd and looking for the easiest way out of each situation and never fighting the best or number one contender. He's begging for the best middleweight around to try to take his title and test him.
How jumping up from Middleweight to Super Middleweight or Light Heavy has any bearing on a greatness discussion is ludicrous and i'm done having those stupid arguments. GGG is one of the greatest boxers in the history of Boxing. Plane and simple.
"Unbiased" = showing no prejudice for or against something; impartial. Oh boy, Horse is going to be mad....
caldo2025 wrote:We all know how the GGG bashers feel about him but I was wondering how reasonable people would feel about GGG If he remained at Middleweight for the rest of his career and retired undefeated. He never takes part in a super fight or a catchweight negotiation. He breaks every middleweight record and retires undefeated with a 50-0 record with 45 knockouts. What will be his place in boxing history?
He'll have his place in boxing history whatever he does! But to go down as a "hall of fame" type fighter he'll have to have some super fights! Lemieux is the best name on his record so far.. I wouldn't mind seeing that fight again in the near future as I think Lemieux would be better prepared.. But canelo and the other champions has got to be his main aim.. Maybe a super middleweight belt would cement that "one of the great's" status also..
GGG is a Middleweight. His place in history should be measured by how well he did in the weight class he was in. It would be one thing if he started his career like Manny did at 106 pounds and accumulated world titles as he grew but we are talking about a grown man here. His weight class is his weight class. All of this jumping around talk is silliness. He's a middleweight. The best middleweight there is.
caldo2025 wrote:We all know how the GGG bashers feel about him but I was wondering how reasonable people would feel about GGG If he remained at Middleweight for the rest of his career and retired undefeated. He never takes part in a super fight or a catchweight negotiation. He breaks every middleweight record and retires undefeated with a 50-0 record with 45 knockouts. What will be his place in boxing history?
He'll have his place in boxing history whatever he does! But to go down as a "hall of fame" type fighter he'll have to have some super fights! Lemieux is the best name on his record so far.. I wouldn't mind seeing that fight again in the near future as I think Lemieux would be better prepared.. But canelo and the other champions has got to be his main aim.. Maybe a super middleweight belt would cement that "one of the great's" status also..
GGG is a Middleweight. His place in history should be measured by how well he did in the weight class he was in. It would be one thing if he started his career like Manny did at 106 pounds and accumulated world titles as he grew but we are talking about a grown man here. His weight class is his weight class. All of this jumping around talk is silliness. He's a middleweight. The best middleweight there is.
Quality of opposition is important in determining how greater a fighter is. Wladimir Klitschko may have the second most title defenses in heavyweight history, but most knowledgeable boxing folk have him outside their top 10, because he fought in a very weak era for the division. In the end there was nothing more Wlad could do, because there wasn't another division he could move down to. Perhaps when there were only eight weight divisions you could argue against people having to move up or down in weight, but there are so many weight divisions today, with such small gaps between them - not to mention boxing's decreased popularity - that when someone rules a division for a period of time, they are doing it over a significantly reduced talent pool. GGG's resume is underrated by many, but I do think he'll be wasting his potential for greatness if he never moves up to 168lb. I think he's good enough to beat everyone in the division, so why not?
baron_otto wrote:I don't think there are enough big fights at middleweight for him to be classed as having any more than good career if he stays put. If he's talking about Brook (as mentioned on sky) this shows there isn't much left for him to do. I think he has to step up for a couple of the bigger fights at SM fairly soon. A good showing there and retiring a two weight champ for do far more for how he's viewed.
Golovkin ALREADY had a GREAT Middleweight Career. GIGANTIC fights with Canelo, Jacobs, and Saunders loom - if they ever get over their cowardice. GGG is NOT taking about Kell Brook. Brook is talking about GGG, more for publicity than anything. That would be HUGE, like Leonard and De La Hoya moving up - but those guys had already lost to lightweights and Kell Brook is undefeated. Sugar Ray Robinson's record on Middleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins... Robinson lost to Basilio, a hittable Welterweight with numerous previous losses... SRR lost to Fullmer, a plodding target with numerous losses. SRR lost to the chinny Randy Turpin in a big upset. Robinson was decked hard by Tommy Bell, Artie Levine, Jake LaMotta, and Rocky Graziano and they WEREN'T good boxers. In sharp contrast, Gennady Golovkin's record for MIddleweight Title Defenses is 16-0 with 16 KO wins. He's never been knocked down in 385 amateur and pro fights - and the division is very far from being cleaned out if the most logical opponents would step up and face the music.
baron_otto wrote:I don't think there are enough big fights at middleweight for him to be classed as having any more than good career if he stays put. If he's talking about Brook (as mentioned on sky) this shows there isn't much left for him to do. I think he has to step up for a couple of the bigger fights at SM fairly soon. A good showing there and retiring a two weight champ for do far more for how he's viewed.
Golovkin ALREADY had a GREAT Middleweight Career. GIGANTIC fights with Canelo, Jacobs, and Saunders loom - if they ever get over their cowardice. GGG is NOT taking about Kell Brook. Brook is talking about GGG, more for publicity than anything. That would be HUGE, like Leonard and De La Hoya moving up - but those guys had already lost to lightweights and Kell Brook is undefeated. Sugar Ray Robinson's record on Middleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins... Robinson lost to Basilio, a hittable Welterweight with numerous previous losses... SRR lost to Fullmer, a plodding target with numerous losses. SRR lost to the chinny Randy Turpin in a big upset. Robinson was decked hard by Tommy Bell, Artie Levine, Jake LaMotta, and Rocky Graziano and they WEREN'T good boxers. In sharp contrast, Gennady Golovkin's record for MIddleweight Title Defenses is 16-0 with 16 KO wins. He's never been knocked down in 385 amateur and pro fights - and the division is very far from being cleaned out if the most logical opponents would step up and face the music.
Comparing SRR to GGG? You obviously know very little about SRR's career, or his opponents.
baron_otto wrote:I don't think there are enough big fights at middleweight for him to be classed as having any more than good career if he stays put. If he's talking about Brook (as mentioned on sky) this shows there isn't much left for him to do. I think he has to step up for a couple of the bigger fights at SM fairly soon. A good showing there and retiring a two weight champ for do far more for how he's viewed.
Golovkin ALREADY had a GREAT Middleweight Career. GIGANTIC fights with Canelo, Jacobs, and Saunders loom - if they ever get over their cowardice. GGG is NOT taking about Kell Brook. Brook is talking about GGG, more for publicity than anything. That would be HUGE, like Leonard and De La Hoya moving up - but those guys had already lost to lightweights and Kell Brook is undefeated. Sugar Ray Robinson's record on Middleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins... Robinson lost to Basilio, a hittable Welterweight with numerous previous losses... SRR lost to Fullmer, a plodding target with numerous losses. SRR lost to the chinny Randy Turpin in a big upset. Robinson was decked hard by Tommy Bell, Artie Levine, Jake LaMotta, and Rocky Graziano and they WEREN'T good boxers. In sharp contrast, Gennady Golovkin's record for MIddleweight Title Defenses is 16-0 with 16 KO wins. He's never been knocked down in 385 amateur and pro fights - and the division is very far from being cleaned out if the most logical opponents would step up and face the music.
Comparing SRR to GGG? You obviously know very little about SRR's career, or his opponents.
The Hagler comments were equally disturbing. I never understand why people take demonstrative stances with no knowledge. One of the biggest problems in America is 99.9% of us do that with politics. I don't watch Soccer, don't argue about it.
He'll have his place in boxing history whatever he does! But to go down as a "hall of fame" type fighter he'll have to have some super fights! Lemieux is the best name on his record so far.. I wouldn't mind seeing that fight again in the near future as I think Lemieux would be better prepared.. But canelo and the other champions has got to be his main aim.. Maybe a super middleweight belt would cement that "one of the great's" status also..
GGG is a Middleweight. His place in history should be measured by how well he did in the weight class he was in. It would be one thing if he started his career like Manny did at 106 pounds and accumulated world titles as he grew but we are talking about a grown man here. His weight class is his weight class. All of this jumping around talk is silliness. He's a middleweight. The best middleweight there is.
Quality of opposition is important in determining how greater a fighter is. Wladimir Klitschko may have the second most title defenses in heavyweight history, but most knowledgeable boxing folk have him outside their top 10, because he fought in a very weak era for the division. In the end there was nothing more Wlad could do, because there wasn't another division he could move down to. Perhaps when there were only eight weight divisions you could argue against people having to move up or down in weight, but there are so many weight divisions today, with such small gaps between them - not to mention boxing's decreased popularity - that when someone rules a division for a period of time, they are doing it over a significantly reduced talent pool. GGG's resume is underrated by many, but I do think he'll be wasting his potential for greatness if he never moves up to 168lb. I think he's good enough to beat everyone in the division, so why not?
I couldn't disagree more with your comparison between Wlad and GGG. GGG's popularity dwarfs Wlad's at any point in his career. GGG has already signed endorsement deals with both Apple and Nike. GGG fights 3 times a year and not in some cold corner of the world like Wlad did. The biggest difference between them is the entertainment value. Wlad hugged his was through those title defenses while GGG knocked everyone out spectacularly.
A funny thing happened during GGG's last fight against Wade. I'm not sure if you saw it or not but there was something different about the crowd reaction. These fans showed up hoping for a GGG knockout early. They weren't upset about a quick fight and spending their money on it. They ALL wanted to witness a GGG knockout. The fans exploded after that KO like they never have for him. The KO streak is going to take on a life of its own and people now just want to pay to see GGG knock someone, anyone, out. Just like they used to do for Mike.
So if GGG stays at MW and keeps knocking 3 people out per year, the fan base will continue to grow and the streak will become mainstream sports story covered heavily. A fight against Canelo or Wade may make him some more money but has nothing to do with what he' after, historical record breaking. That's all GGG is about and i'm all for it.
caldo2025 wrote:
GGG is a Middleweight. His place in history should be measured by how well he did in the weight class he was in. It would be one thing if he started his career like Manny did at 106 pounds and accumulated world titles as he grew but we are talking about a grown man here. His weight class is his weight class. All of this jumping around talk is silliness. He's a middleweight. The best middleweight there is.
Quality of opposition is important in determining how greater a fighter is. Wladimir Klitschko may have the second most title defenses in heavyweight history, but most knowledgeable boxing folk have him outside their top 10, because he fought in a very weak era for the division. In the end there was nothing more Wlad could do, because there wasn't another division he could move down to. Perhaps when there were only eight weight divisions you could argue against people having to move up or down in weight, but there are so many weight divisions today, with such small gaps between them - not to mention boxing's decreased popularity - that when someone rules a division for a period of time, they are doing it over a significantly reduced talent pool. GGG's resume is underrated by many, but I do think he'll be wasting his potential for greatness if he never moves up to 168lb. I think he's good enough to beat everyone in the division, so why not?
I couldn't disagree more with your comparison between Wlad and GGG. GGG's popularity dwarfs Wlad's at any point in his career. GGG has already signed endorsement deals with both Apple and Nike. GGG fights 3 times a year and not in some cold corner of the world like Wlad did. The biggest difference between them is the entertainment value. Wlad hugged his was through those title defenses while GGG knocked everyone out spectacularly.
A funny thing happened during GGG's last fight against Wade. I'm not sure if you saw it or not but there was something different about the crowd reaction. These fans showed up hoping for a GGG knockout early. They weren't upset about a quick fight and spending their money on it. They ALL wanted to witness a GGG knockout. The fans exploded after that KO like they never have for him. The KO streak is going to take on a life of its own and people now just want to pay to see GGG knock someone, anyone, out. Just like they used to do for Mike.
So if GGG stays at MW and keeps knocking 3 people out per year, the fan base will continue to grow and the streak will become mainstream sports story covered heavily. A fight against Canelo or Wade may make him some more money but has nothing to do with what he' after, historical record breaking. That's all GGG is about and i'm all for it.
For the record, I'm a big GGG fan - he's my favourite active boxer.
The comparison between Wlad and GGG is only that they have been far better than everyone else in their division, partly due to them being good, partly due to the talent pool in their division being relatively thin and in GGG's case, due to him being avoided by other top fighters. Not having fights where they are challenged makes it hard to judge how good they truly were/are. Same could be said of Tyson during the 80s.
However, GGG has an option that Tyson and Wlad didn't - a weight division above that he can fight in, thereby doubling the number of potential opponents. I'm not saying GGG should make a permanent move to 168lb if he can't get the Canelo fight - I think he should try to unify the belts at middleweight, maybe hang around to get the title defenses record, then move up. The thought of GGG vs the DeGale-Jack winner and GGG vs Ward are very exciting to me.
jezzamundo wrote:
Quality of opposition is important in determining how greater a fighter is. Wladimir Klitschko may have the second most title defenses in heavyweight history, but most knowledgeable boxing folk have him outside their top 10, because he fought in a very weak era for the division. In the end there was nothing more Wlad could do, because there wasn't another division he could move down to. Perhaps when there were only eight weight divisions you could argue against people having to move up or down in weight, but there are so many weight divisions today, with such small gaps between them - not to mention boxing's decreased popularity - that when someone rules a division for a period of time, they are doing it over a significantly reduced talent pool. GGG's resume is underrated by many, but I do think he'll be wasting his potential for greatness if he never moves up to 168lb. I think he's good enough to beat everyone in the division, so why not?
I couldn't disagree more with your comparison between Wlad and GGG. GGG's popularity dwarfs Wlad's at any point in his career. GGG has already signed endorsement deals with both Apple and Nike. GGG fights 3 times a year and not in some cold corner of the world like Wlad did. The biggest difference between them is the entertainment value. Wlad hugged his was through those title defenses while GGG knocked everyone out spectacularly.
A funny thing happened during GGG's last fight against Wade. I'm not sure if you saw it or not but there was something different about the crowd reaction. These fans showed up hoping for a GGG knockout early. They weren't upset about a quick fight and spending their money on it. They ALL wanted to witness a GGG knockout. The fans exploded after that KO like they never have for him. The KO streak is going to take on a life of its own and people now just want to pay to see GGG knock someone, anyone, out. Just like they used to do for Mike.
So if GGG stays at MW and keeps knocking 3 people out per year, the fan base will continue to grow and the streak will become mainstream sports story covered heavily. A fight against Canelo or Wade may make him some more money but has nothing to do with what he' after, historical record breaking. That's all GGG is about and i'm all for it.
For the record, I'm a big GGG fan - he's my favourite active boxer.
The comparison between Wlad and GGG is only that they have been far better than everyone else in their division, partly due to them being good, partly due to the talent pool in their division being relatively thin and in GGG's case, due to him being avoided by other top fighters. Not having fights where they are challenged makes it hard to judge how good they truly were/are. Same could be said of Tyson during the 80s.
However, GGG has an option that Tyson and Wlad didn't - a weight division above that he can fight in, thereby doubling the number of potential opponents. I'm not saying GGG should make a permanent move to 168lb if he can't get the Canelo fight - I think he should try to unify the belts at middleweight, maybe hang around to get the title defenses record, then move up. The thought of GGG vs the DeGale-Jack winner and GGG vs Ward are very exciting to me.
Let's not forget that Wlad had a few losses to opponents far from elite.
caldo2025 wrote:
I couldn't disagree more with your comparison between Wlad and GGG. GGG's popularity dwarfs Wlad's at any point in his career. GGG has already signed endorsement deals with both Apple and Nike. GGG fights 3 times a year and not in some cold corner of the world like Wlad did. The biggest difference between them is the entertainment value. Wlad hugged his was through those title defenses while GGG knocked everyone out spectacularly.
A funny thing happened during GGG's last fight against Wade. I'm not sure if you saw it or not but there was something different about the crowd reaction. These fans showed up hoping for a GGG knockout early. They weren't upset about a quick fight and spending their money on it. They ALL wanted to witness a GGG knockout. The fans exploded after that KO like they never have for him. The KO streak is going to take on a life of its own and people now just want to pay to see GGG knock someone, anyone, out. Just like they used to do for Mike.
So if GGG stays at MW and keeps knocking 3 people out per year, the fan base will continue to grow and the streak will become mainstream sports story covered heavily. A fight against Canelo or Wade may make him some more money but has nothing to do with what he' after, historical record breaking. That's all GGG is about and i'm all for it.
For the record, I'm a big GGG fan - he's my favourite active boxer.
The comparison between Wlad and GGG is only that they have been far better than everyone else in their division, partly due to them being good, partly due to the talent pool in their division being relatively thin and in GGG's case, due to him being avoided by other top fighters. Not having fights where they are challenged makes it hard to judge how good they truly were/are. Same could be said of Tyson during the 80s.
However, GGG has an option that Tyson and Wlad didn't - a weight division above that he can fight in, thereby doubling the number of potential opponents. I'm not saying GGG should make a permanent move to 168lb if he can't get the Canelo fight - I think he should try to unify the belts at middleweight, maybe hang around to get the title defenses record, then move up. The thought of GGG vs the DeGale-Jack winner and GGG vs Ward are very exciting to me.
Let's not forget that Wlad had a few losses to opponents far from elite.
Certainly. Many here were touting him as a top 10 all time heavyweight, but I never did, largely due to his poor opposition but also due to the fact that watching him, I sensed he would come unstuck against pretty much any other elite heavyweight, it's just that there weren't any for such a long time, aside from his brother. I certainly don't sense that with GGG - he's the real deal, it's just a shame he's already 34 and hasn't been in a superfight.
jezzamundo wrote:
For the record, I'm a big GGG fan - he's my favourite active boxer.
The comparison between Wlad and GGG is only that they have been far better than everyone else in their division, partly due to them being good, partly due to the talent pool in their division being relatively thin and in GGG's case, due to him being avoided by other top fighters. Not having fights where they are challenged makes it hard to judge how good they truly were/are. Same could be said of Tyson during the 80s.
However, GGG has an option that Tyson and Wlad didn't - a weight division above that he can fight in, thereby doubling the number of potential opponents. I'm not saying GGG should make a permanent move to 168lb if he can't get the Canelo fight - I think he should try to unify the belts at middleweight, maybe hang around to get the title defenses record, then move up. The thought of GGG vs the DeGale-Jack winner and GGG vs Ward are very exciting to me.
Let's not forget that Wlad had a few losses to opponents far from elite.
Certainly. Many here were touting him as a top 10 all time heavyweight, but I never did, largely due to his poor opposition but also due to the fact that watching him, I sensed he would come unstuck against pretty much any other elite heavyweight, it's just that there weren't any for such a long time, aside from his brother. I certainly don't sense that with GGG - he's the real deal, it's just a shame he's already 34 and hasn't been in a superfight.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree again with your comparison. You can't even remotely compare the Heavyweight Division to the Middleweight Division in terms of talent. There are less human beings on this planet large enough and strong enough to even fight in the heavyweight division. But the amount of boxers that can make 160 pounds in the world has to be 10 times as many as those that can fight at HW. WW's, SWW's, MW's, SMW and even LHW have opportunity to get fight at 160. It's the easiest weight destination for most boxers. There's a reason why it's probably the most historic weight class of them all.
At some point, the world will realize that the talent at MW is as strong as it ever was. We just happen to have a MW that came into our lives that is the best to ever lace them up. Plain and simple. When it's all said and done, he will leap Floyd and the rest for the completely ridiculous displays he's putting on. I've been watching Boxing since 1975 and i've never seen anything like GGG. Not even close.
jezzamundo wrote:
For the record, I'm a big GGG fan - he's my favourite active boxer.
The comparison between Wlad and GGG is only that they have been far better than everyone else in their division, partly due to them being good, partly due to the talent pool in their division being relatively thin and in GGG's case, due to him being avoided by other top fighters. Not having fights where they are challenged makes it hard to judge how good they truly were/are. Same could be said of Tyson during the 80s.
However, GGG has an option that Tyson and Wlad didn't - a weight division above that he can fight in, thereby doubling the number of potential opponents. I'm not saying GGG should make a permanent move to 168lb if he can't get the Canelo fight - I think he should try to unify the belts at middleweight, maybe hang around to get the title defenses record, then move up. The thought of GGG vs the DeGale-Jack winner and GGG vs Ward are very exciting to me.
Let's not forget that Wlad had a few losses to opponents far from elite.
Certainly. Many here were touting him as a top 10 all time heavyweight, but I never did, largely due to his poor opposition but also due to the fact that watching him, I sensed he would come unstuck against pretty much any other elite heavyweight, it's just that there weren't any for such a long time, aside from his brother. I certainly don't sense that with GGG - he's the real deal, it's just a shame he's already 34 and hasn't been in a superfight.
I forgot to add that i do think that GGG will eventually make a move after he accomplishes his goals of unification and defending his title for some years. He will take a signature fight before he's done and most likely will have to take on a larger man to satisfy his competitive juices and who really knows what will happen? There's a big difference between these divisions and it comes down to power. We saw it n the Canelo/Khan fight and we'll see it again if Canelo fights GGG at 160. Weight isn't all that it has to do with. It's the difference in the punching power between these divisions and how accustomed boxers get to the average power of the division they are in. Canelo may weigh the same as GGG on fight night but he's never been hit by a MW with power much less a freak like GGG. Going to be ugly.
ikorolev wrote:
Let's not forget that Wlad had a few losses to opponents far from elite.
Certainly. Many here were touting him as a top 10 all time heavyweight, but I never did, largely due to his poor opposition but also due to the fact that watching him, I sensed he would come unstuck against pretty much any other elite heavyweight, it's just that there weren't any for such a long time, aside from his brother. I certainly don't sense that with GGG - he's the real deal, it's just a shame he's already 34 and hasn't been in a superfight.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree again with your comparison. You can't even remotely compare the Heavyweight Division to the Middleweight Division in terms of talent. There are less human beings on this planet large enough and strong enough to even fight in the heavyweight division. But the amount of boxers that can make 160 pounds in the world has to be 10 times as many as those that can fight at HW. WW's, SWW's, MW's, SMW and even LHW have opportunity to get fight at 160. It's the easiest weight destination for most boxers. There's a reason why it's probably the most historic weight class of them all.
At some point, the world will realize that the talent at MW is as strong as it ever was. We just happen to have a MW that came into our lives that is the best to ever lace them up. Plain and simple. When it's all said and done, he will leap Floyd and the rest for the completely ridiculous displays he's putting on. I've been watching Boxing since 1975 and i've never seen anything like GGG. Not even close.
I agree that the middleweight division is and has been much stronger than heavyweight and that there's a larger talent pool at the weight - although there are 1371 heavyweight pro boxers and 1558 pro middleweights, though admittedly many of the heavyweights are natural LHW or CW. Perhaps your 10x number would have been accurate when there were only eight weight divisions, but now that middleweight only spans 6lb, I don't think it is. What I'm saying isn't a diss to GGG, it's just my honest assessment of the situation.
Badhusker wrote: Comparing SRR to GGG? You obviously know very little about SRR's career, or his opponents
I saw Sugar Ray Robinson fight LIVE a number of times in the 1950's... I know a great deal more about him than YOU know... I sure as Hell know know crude swingers like Tommy Bell, Artie Lavine, Jake LaMotta, and Rocky Graziano knocked the easy to hit Robbie down HARD... and that NOBODY ever knocked GGG down EVER.. I also know that SRR's record in Midddleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins.. and GGG's is 16-0 with 16 KO wins.
I know that GGG has a superior jab and jabbed Middleweight Champion David Lemieux with a record number of jabs in their World Middleweight Title Unification Fight.. I also know Robinson's jab wasn't as sharp or smooth and that Ralph Jones LOST 5 straight fights - but then clearly outboxed and dominated Robinson when SRR was younger then GGG is today.. I also note that SRR padded his record with 150 second raters including fighting 8 cherry picks in 4 months AFTER he won the Middleweight Title and BEFORE he fought his FIRST Title Defense against Randy Turpin - a fight that SRR lost. GGG is much more of a ring general, controlling the ring space with his footwork and jab.. Robinson's record was kind of average on Middleweight Title Defenses because he was a bit sloppy with his jab and footwork.. If GGG ever lost a fight he would catch unbelievable condemnation.. Ray Robinson could lose several Title fights and nobody turned a hair... Things were different in my day. You have to be God today.
jezzamundo wrote:
Certainly. Many here were touting him as a top 10 all time heavyweight, but I never did, largely due to his poor opposition but also due to the fact that watching him, I sensed he would come unstuck against pretty much any other elite heavyweight, it's just that there weren't any for such a long time, aside from his brother. I certainly don't sense that with GGG - he's the real deal, it's just a shame he's already 34 and hasn't been in a superfight.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree again with your comparison. You can't even remotely compare the Heavyweight Division to the Middleweight Division in terms of talent. There are less human beings on this planet large enough and strong enough to even fight in the heavyweight division. But the amount of boxers that can make 160 pounds in the world has to be 10 times as many as those that can fight at HW. WW's, SWW's, MW's, SMW and even LHW have opportunity to get fight at 160. It's the easiest weight destination for most boxers. There's a reason why it's probably the most historic weight class of them all.
At some point, the world will realize that the talent at MW is as strong as it ever was. We just happen to have a MW that came into our lives that is the best to ever lace them up. Plain and simple. When it's all said and done, he will leap Floyd and the rest for the completely ridiculous displays he's putting on. I've been watching Boxing since 1975 and i've never seen anything like GGG. Not even close.
I agree that the middleweight division is and has been much stronger than heavyweight and that there's a larger talent pool at the weight - although there are 1371 heavyweight pro boxers and 1558 pro middleweights, though admittedly many of the heavyweights are natural LHW or CW. Perhaps your 10x number would have been accurate when there were only eight weight divisions, but now that middleweight only spans 6lb, I don't think it is. What I'm saying isn't a diss to GGG, it's just my honest assessment of the situation.
I like that you dug into find statistics because it shows you have pride. My point was poorly made but what I was trying to say is that 5 different weight classes surround 160 lbs. right now. One of them is the best division in boxing arguably, WW. That along with the fact that not many humans are made that big to fight at heavy and the big athletic people turn to boxing only after exhausting options in other sports first like Pro Football or Pro Basketball.
Last point ill make and i'll submit to a stalemate with you because you make some good points. The era of boxing we are in right now really should be the best because boxers have more tools, knowledge, better training and nutrition, better scouting through technology and the list goes on. Boxers now can click on a fighter now online and find out what percentage of his punches are to the body, head and which sides. Boxers have 5 different trainers for nutrition, boxing, strength and conditioning. My point is that I think that the boxers right now across the board are the best ever because they have way more support. GGG dominating in this era the way he has is even more remarkable due to these facts and he's clean. He tests cleanly routinely through VADA.
I guess the future will determine the answer to this one so i'll respectfully agree to disagree with you on this one.
Badhusker wrote: Comparing SRR to GGG? You obviously know very little about SRR's career, or his opponents
I saw Sugar Ray Robinson fight LIVE a number of times in the 1950's... I know a great deal more about him than YOU know... I sure as Hell know know crude swingers like Tommy Bell, Artie Lavine, Jake LaMotta, and Rocky Graziano knocked the easy to hit Robbie down HARD... and that NOBODY ever knocked GGG down EVER.. I also know that SRR's record in Midddleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins.. and GGG's is 16-0 with 16 KO wins.
I know that GGG has a superior jab and jabbed Middleweight Champion David Lemieux with a record number of jabs in their World Middleweight Title Unification Fight.. I also know Robinson's jab wasn't as sharp or smooth and that Ralph Jones LOST 5 straight fights - but then clearly outboxed and dominated Robinson when SRR was younger then GGG is today.. I also note that SRR padded his record with 150 second raters including fighting 8 cherry picks in 4 months AFTER he won the Middleweight Title and BEFORE he fought his FIRST Title Defense against Randy Turpin - a fight that SRR lost. GGG is much more of a ring general, controlling the ring space with his footwork and jab.. Robinson's record was kind of average on Middleweight Title Defenses because he was a bit sloppy with his jab and footwork.. If GGG ever lost a fight he would catch unbelievable condemnation.. Ray Robinson could lose several Title fights and nobody turned a hair... Things were different in my day. You have to be God today.
Now we have somebody to disprove rumors that grass was greener then.
Badhusker wrote: Comparing SRR to GGG? You obviously know very little about SRR's career, or his opponents
I saw Sugar Ray Robinson fight LIVE a number of times in the 1950's... I know a great deal more about him than YOU know... I sure as Hell know know crude swingers like Tommy Bell, Artie Lavine, Jake LaMotta, and Rocky Graziano knocked the easy to hit Robbie down HARD... and that NOBODY ever knocked GGG down EVER.. I also know that SRR's record in Midddleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins.. and GGG's is 16-0 with 16 KO wins.
I know that GGG has a superior jab and jabbed Middleweight Champion David Lemieux with a record number of jabs in their World Middleweight Title Unification Fight.. I also know Robinson's jab wasn't as sharp or smooth and that Ralph Jones LOST 5 straight fights - but then clearly outboxed and dominated Robinson when SRR was younger then GGG is today.. I also note that SRR padded his record with 150 second raters including fighting 8 cherry picks in 4 months AFTER he won the Middleweight Title and BEFORE he fought his FIRST Title Defense against Randy Turpin - a fight that SRR lost. GGG is much more of a ring general, controlling the ring space with his footwork and jab.. Robinson's record was kind of average on Middleweight Title Defenses because he was a bit sloppy with his jab and footwork.. If GGG ever lost a fight he would catch unbelievable condemnation.. Ray Robinson could lose several Title fights and nobody turned a hair... Things were different in my day. You have to be God today.
I would say as a counterpoint though, that Robinson was already past his best at MW, and was barely a fully fledged MW.
He didn't have the benefit of lengthy training camps, he had to fight regularly to make money, and often had no footage of his opponent to go on.
SRR may have been younger than GGG at the time you quote, but he'd had an absolute shed load of fights, fighters got old a lot quicker in Robinson's day from the constant wear and tear.
He's the best middleweight of his era. Whether his era is good or not we don't know yet. If one of his victims like Wade or Lemieux or Stevens can go in with and win some big fights against the daft world champions, that would add greatly to GGG's reputation.
The problem he has is that 2 of the 3 other belt holders are light middleweights so despite the euphoria which would result from him beating Canelo I don't think the hardcore boxing fan would necessarily regard that as the defining fight which elevates him to the pantheon
Moving up to super mid wouldn't do much for his legacy in my opinion. I think it's a pretty thin division.
All he can do is keep lining em up and knocking em over, if he does that for 3 or 4 more years he's an ATG no doubt
CaptainSpacerod wrote:He's the best middleweight of his era. Whether his era is good or not we don't know yet. If one of his victims like Wade or Lemieux or Stevens can go in with and win some big fights against the daft world champions, that would add greatly to GGG's reputation.
The problem he has is that 2 of the 3 other belt holders are light middleweights so despite the euphoria which would result from him beating Canelo I don't think the hardcore boxing fan would necessarily regard that as the defining fight which elevates him to the pantheon
Moving up to super mid wouldn't do much for his legacy in my opinion. I think it's a pretty thin division.
All he can do is keep lining em up and knocking em over, if he does that for 3 or 4 more years he's an ATG no doubt
Canelo is a MW who drains. Anyone fighting at 170 or more fight night, in my book, is a MW.
Badhusker wrote: Comparing SRR to GGG? You obviously know very little about SRR's career, or his opponents
I saw Sugar Ray Robinson fight LIVE a number of times in the 1950's... I know a great deal more about him than YOU know... I sure as Hell know know crude swingers like Tommy Bell, Artie Lavine, Jake LaMotta, and Rocky Graziano knocked the easy to hit Robbie down HARD... and that NOBODY ever knocked GGG down EVER.. I also know that SRR's record in Midddleweight Title Defenses is 3-3 with 2 KO wins.. and GGG's is 16-0 with 16 KO wins.
I know that GGG has a superior jab and jabbed Middleweight Champion David Lemieux with a record number of jabs in their World Middleweight Title Unification Fight.. I also know Robinson's jab wasn't as sharp or smooth and that Ralph Jones LOST 5 straight fights - but then clearly outboxed and dominated Robinson when SRR was younger then GGG is today.. I also note that SRR padded his record with 150 second raters including fighting 8 cherry picks in 4 months AFTER he won the Middleweight Title and BEFORE he fought his FIRST Title Defense against Randy Turpin - a fight that SRR lost. GGG is much more of a ring general, controlling the ring space with his footwork and jab.. Robinson's record was kind of average on Middleweight Title Defenses because he was a bit sloppy with his jab and footwork.. If GGG ever lost a fight he would catch unbelievable condemnation.. Ray Robinson could lose several Title fights and nobody turned a hair... Things were different in my day. You have to be God today.
Now we have somebody to disprove rumors that grass was greener then.
CaptainSpacerod wrote:He's the best middleweight of his era. Whether his era is good or not we don't know yet. If one of his victims like Wade or Lemieux or Stevens can go in with and win some big fights against the daft world champions, that would add greatly to GGG's reputation.
The problem he has is that 2 of the 3 other belt holders are light middleweights so despite the euphoria which would result from him beating Canelo I don't think the hardcore boxing fan would necessarily regard that as the defining fight which elevates him to the pantheon
Moving up to super mid wouldn't do much for his legacy in my opinion. I think it's a pretty thin division.
All he can do is keep lining em up and knocking em over, if he does that for 3 or 4 more years he's an ATG no doubt
Canelo is a MW who drains. Anyone fighting at 170 or more fight night, in my book, is a MW.
CaptainSpacerod wrote:He's the best middleweight of his era. Whether his era is good or not we don't know yet. If one of his victims like Wade or Lemieux or Stevens can go in with and win some big fights against the daft world champions, that would add greatly to GGG's reputation.
The problem he has is that 2 of the 3 other belt holders are light middleweights so despite the euphoria which would result from him beating Canelo I don't think the hardcore boxing fan would necessarily regard that as the defining fight which elevates him to the pantheon
Moving up to super mid wouldn't do much for his legacy in my opinion. I think it's a pretty thin division.
All he can do is keep lining em up and knocking em over, if he does that for 3 or 4 more years he's an ATG no doubt
Canelo is a MW who drains. Anyone fighting at 170 or more fight night, in my book, is a MW.
Don't 99% of em drain ?
Sure, but probably not more than Canelo does, or at least, not much more. He's not making 154, and clearly struggles to make 155. He's a MW in my eyes.
Now we have somebody to disprove rumors that grass was greener then.