BoxRec

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Kalan wrote:Ali LOST FIGHTS to guys who NEVER DID ANYTHING major previously or since beating Ali ... such as Ken Norton and Leon Spinks -- Joshua would have destroyed those 2 super hittable Heavyweights inside of a round... Joshua obviously has a more balanced and solid stance than Ali had... slips and ducks punches better than Ali did... Joshua doesn't get plastered against the ropes like Ali did... AJ fights better inside and has a better body attack than Ali... and AJ counterpunches and throws more accurate combinations than Ali did... Ali isn't a sucker for left jabs and left hooks like Ali was.

Ali only lost to world champions and didn't lose a single fight in his prime.

AJ isn't even the #1 heavyweight now, let alone #1 of all time.

His knockout ratio and the number of unbeaten fighters he has beaten means very little.... I draw your attention to Ali Raymi

Can you not see how biased you are against Ali?

Ali was 29 when he lost to Frazier... 29-years-old is in your prime... Wilder, Povetkin, Haye, Ortiz, and Klitschko are all a year to 11 years OLDER than that... Are fans going to bring out their crying towels if any of these guy if they lose????

Name somebody with better over-all combination of boxing, punching, attacking, defensive skills, and body punching skills than AJ.

Did Ali Raymi ever win a World Heavyweight Title Fight in spectacular fashion that pulled millions of TV veiwers???? NO? ... That shows what caliber he was

Ali was always a hero of mine for being courageous enough to see the Viet Nam War was an abomination. I always knew he was great. I try to be fair.

Kalan wrote:Ali was 29 when he lost to Frazier... 29-years-old is in your prime.

Every boxer peaks at a different time. It isn't the same for everyone. Do you not agree?

29 is normally still in your prime if you had not missed 3 1/2 years. Maybe Kalan did not know that happened. He seems to be new to the sport.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Kalan wrote:Ali was 29 when he lost to Frazier... 29-years-old is in your prime.

Every boxer peaks at a different time. It isn't the same for everyone. Do you not agree?

If they don't train, and don't pay attention to their careers, they'll fall off at various times in their careers obviously.

The ones who are introduced to boxing at a very early age... find big success as an amateur... Turn pro as teenagers... learn a full compliment of skills, such as body punching, infighting, defense, footwork, ducking, slipping, countering, attacking, will probably go for 20 years like Floyd, and will maintain their peak through the finish. I don't think Floyd was the greatest of all time like boxrec.com does, but you can't knock his winning ratio.

Now... the guys who are introduced to boxing at a very early age... find big success as an amateur... Turn pro as teenagers... but don't learn a full set of complimentary skills... do everything their own way... lay on the ropes... get punched and socked around a lot... floored hard.. jaw shattered.. beaten up by massive underdogs.. screwing around all night every night... They're not going to last as long ... and it might even effect them later on.

Kalan wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Kalan wrote:Ali was 29 when he lost to Frazier... 29-years-old is in your prime.

Every boxer peaks at a different time. It isn't the same for everyone. Do you not agree?

If they don't train, and don't pay attention to their careers, they'll fall off at various times in their careers obviously.

The ones who are introduced to boxing at a very early age... find big success as an amateur... Turn pro as teenagers... learn a full compliment of skills, such as body punching, infighting, defense, footwork, ducking, slipping, countering, attacking, will probably go for 20 years like Floyd, and will maintain their peak through the finish. I don't think Floyd was the greatest of all time like boxrec.com does, but you can't knock his winning ratio.

Now... the guys who are introduced to boxing at a very early age... find big success as an amateur... Turn pro as teenagers... but don't learn a full set of complimentary skills... do everything their own way... lay on the ropes... get punched and socked around a lot... floored hard.. jaw shattered.. beaten up by massive underdogs.. screwing around all night every night... They're not going to last as long ... and it might even effect them later on.

You are generalizing and assuming. The simple fact is that every single person on the planet is different. Some boxers peak early in their careers. others peak late. Some have a short prime, others have a long prime. Ali after the ban was not the same boxer as he was before it. His balance wasn't the same after the ban.

That had something to do with how much he got hit... I didn't see any drop off in Ali until after 34... but that's pretty early... a boxer should be athletically strong until 37 or 38 if he has good defensive skills... and it doesn't matter how many fights he had... Duran had a lot of fights but was still athletically good for Iran Barkely Fight at 37.. Archie Moore had well over 200 fights and he fought past 50, obviously too long.

Now if you have a creeping progressive nerve disease like Ezzard Charles.. He was probably starting to be affected by ALS when he 30.. Because he completely definite was a different Ezzard Charles in the 3rd Walcott fight than his in first 2 fights with Jersey Joe.

Almost every fighter starts to gradually decline around age 30. There might not be a huge dropoff from say 30 to 32, but compare almost everyone from 30 and 35 and you will see a significant difference. Of course there are exceptions, but they are very rare.

In the case of Ali, he was off so long which made a huge difference. After he had several fights, his performances improved from right when he got back, but he was never going to be the same as pre- ban.
How many fights a fighter has and how many tough fights he has been in is of course a huge factor.
If a fighter takes an inordinate amount of punishment, he is going to decline sooner.

Ali was better than ever when he came back to fight Quarry... He was faster, stronger, and sharper and he was only 28.. Some Eastern European and Cuban boxers are 28 when they get started as pros. Athletes in general hit their physical peak at about 30 -- but in Boxing you have the physical and technical components each embodying about 50% of your ability. If you're weak technically---such as a young George Foreman---your physicality will carry you... and if you're not very big, strong, and brutally powerful---such as Jimmy Young---your technique can possibly carry the load if you're a good enough boxer.

Ali was a little like Roy Jones. He had a lot of physicality, but his defense and overall technique---while not as improvised as Naseem Hamed---was more of the creative variety than a Bernard Hopkins, Floyd Mayweather, Luis Ortiz, or Anthony Joshua---whose technique is almost flawless because they do everything by the book. So rethinking this, I guess Ali would knock a couple years off his career just because he broke down technically in a few areas...

A lot of older fighters like Hopkins and Floyd actually pick their technique up a little bit after they're 35... They're better boxers then they ever were at 30 or 33... Floyd was probably a better boxer when he fought Canelo than when he fought Cotto... Holmes was better when he fought Ray Mercer than when he fought Reynaldo Snipes, where it seemed like his craft was breaking down and he was getting lazy.. Sometimes boxing is too easy and you get lazy... I think Floyd Mayweather brought his father back into camp after the Cotto fight and they retooled a few aspects of his defense.

Kalan wrote:Ali was better than ever when he came back to fight Quarry.

Nope. After the ban, his balance was never the same again.

Kalan wrote:Ali was better than ever when he came back to fight Quarry... He was faster, stronger, and sharper and he was only 28.. Some Eastern European and Cuban boxers are 28 when they get started as pros. Athletes in general hit their physical peak at about 30 -- but in Boxing you have the physical and technical components each embodying about 50% of your ability. If you're weak technically---such as a young George Foreman---your physicality will carry you... and if you're not very big, strong, and brutally powerful---such as Jimmy Young---your technique can possibly carry the load if you're a good enough boxer.

Ali was a little like Roy Jones. He had a lot of physicality, but his defense and overall technique---while not as improvised as Naseem Hamed---was more of the creative variety than a Bernard Hopkins, Floyd Mayweather, Luis Ortiz, or Anthony Joshua---whose technique is almost flawless because they do everything by the book. So rethinking this, I guess Ali would knock a couple years off his career just because he broke down technically in a few areas...

A lot of older fighters like Hopkins and Floyd actually pick their technique up a little bit after they're 35... They're better boxers then they ever were at 30 or 33... Floyd was probably a better boxer when he fought Canelo than when he fought Cotto... Holmes was better when he fought Ray Mercer than when he fought Reynaldo Snipes, where it seemed like his craft was breaking down and he was getting lazy.. Sometimes boxing is too easy and you get lazy... I think Floyd Mayweather brought his father back into camp after the Cotto fight and they retooled a few aspects of his defense.

There is no way Ali was faster when he came back in 1970.

I agree that he was physically stronger, but that was down to the fact he had filled out slightly, in conjunction with diminished leg speed that meant he was more likely to sit down on his punches.

He had to change his style primarily because he wasn't as fast & quite as fleet footed as previously.

Disagree 1000%... Ali was only 28 when he came back vs Quarry.. He didn't dance around quite as much or do the ridiculous shoe-shine footwork.. He was more mature.. He didn't look that fast against Karl Mildenberger.. People always point to his Cleveland Williams fight.. Ali could afford to flash dance round an aged, washed up, super slow, non-boxer who had half his right leg and hip blown away when he was nearly shot to death ... That's not speed. That's a matador doing spectacular and daring turns against a bull who's half drained of blood...ready to collapse...and has 2 more weak rushes left in him before the sword goes in.

Kalan wrote:Disagree 1000%... Ali was only 28 when he came back vs Quarry.. He didn't dance around quite as much or do the ridiculous shoe-shine footwork.. He was more mature.. He didn't look that fast against Karl Mildenberger.. People always point to his Cleveland Williams fight.. Ali could afford to flash dance round an aged, washed up, super slow, non-boxer who had half his right leg and hip blown away when he was nearly shot to death ... That's not speed. That's a matador doing spectacular and daring turns against a bull who's half drained of blood...ready to collapse...and has 2 more weak rushes left in him before the sword goes in.

It doesn't matter how old he was. His balance was never the same again after the ban. Ali said it, Dundee said it, all sorts of people have said it.

Now, you believe what's in Wilt's book as gospel, but let me guess, you don't believe Angelo Dundee?

Kalan wrote:Ali was better than ever when he came back to fight Quarry... He was faster, stronger, and sharper and he was only 28.. Some Eastern European and Cuban boxers are 28 when they get started as pros. Athletes in general hit their physical peak at about 30 -- but in Boxing you have the physical and technical components each embodying about 50% of your ability. If you're weak technically---such as a young George Foreman---your physicality will carry you... and if you're not very big, strong, and brutally powerful---such as Jimmy Young---your technique can possibly carry the load if you're a good enough boxer.

Ali was a little like Roy Jones. He had a lot of physicality, but his defense and overall technique---while not as improvised as Naseem Hamed---was more of the creative variety than a Bernard Hopkins, Floyd Mayweather, Luis Ortiz, or Anthony Joshua---whose technique is almost flawless because they do everything by the book. So rethinking this, I guess Ali would knock a couple years off his career just because he broke down technically in a few areas...

A lot of older fighters like Hopkins and Floyd actually pick their technique up a little bit after they're 35... They're better boxers then they ever were at 30 or 33... Floyd was probably a better boxer when he fought Canelo than when he fought Cotto... Holmes was better when he fought Ray Mercer than when he fought Reynaldo Snipes, where it seemed like his craft was breaking down and he was getting lazy.. Sometimes boxing is too easy and you get lazy... I think Floyd Mayweather brought his father back into camp after the Cotto fight and they retooled a few aspects of his defense.

Did Miguel put a lot of leather on him mate, I genuinely don’t remember?

Kalan wrote:Ali was better than ever when he came back to fight Quarry... He was faster, stronger, and sharper and he was only 28.. Some Eastern European and Cuban boxers are 28 when they get started as pros. Athletes in general hit their physical peak at about 30 -- but in Boxing you have the physical and technical components each embodying about 50% of your ability. If you're weak technically---such as a young George Foreman---your physicality will carry you... and if you're not very big, strong, and brutally powerful---such as Jimmy Young---your technique can possibly carry the load if you're a good enough boxer.

Ali was a little like Roy Jones. He had a lot of physicality, but his defense and overall technique---while not as improvised as Naseem Hamed---was more of the creative variety than a Bernard Hopkins, Floyd Mayweather, Luis Ortiz, or Anthony Joshua---whose technique is almost flawless because they do everything by the book. So rethinking this, I guess Ali would knock a couple years off his career just because he broke down technically in a few areas...

A lot of older fighters like Hopkins and Floyd actually pick their technique up a little bit after they're 35... They're better boxers then they ever were at 30 or 33... Floyd was probably a better boxer when he fought Canelo than when he fought Cotto... Holmes was better when he fought Ray Mercer than when he fought Reynaldo Snipes, where it seemed like his craft was breaking down and he was getting lazy.. Sometimes boxing is too easy and you get lazy... I think Floyd Mayweather brought his father back into camp after the Cotto fight and they retooled a few aspects of his defense.

Did Miguel put a lot of leather on him mate, I genuinely don’t remember?

I voted for Ali. Haven’t seen enough of Louis. I’ve read a good bit. Certainly stronger than Ali but I reckon Ali would have found a way to win. I also think he would have got inside the much quieter man’s head, at least a little bit.....possibly.

Ali 51%
Louis 49%
Close for me but Ali is nr1!

magwitch wrote:I voted for Ali. Haven’t seen enough of Louis. I’ve read a good bit. Certainly stronger than Ali but I reckon Ali would have found a way to win. I also think he would have got inside the much quieter man’s head, at least a little bit.....possibly.

This is one thing non-experts always get wrong... Head games.. psyche games.. and scare games only work if your opponent lacks confidence in his ability and preparation. The top notch professional knows how good he is... He also knows how good his opponent is... Therefore he's cool, calm, poised, and relaxed... Carefully study the body language of the 2 boxers -- and see which one has a little bluster, bluff, nervousness, and a phony relaxation, confidence with a pretentious front... See which one is seems deeply confident and genuine... This takes an experienced eye or a little bit of practice, but is detectable.

If you noticed Tyson couldn't psyche or scare Douglas, Holyfield, or Lewis... Cornish, Whyte, Martin, and Breazeale were all undefeated but their stares, faces, threats, mumblings, and theatrics had zero effect on Anthony Joshua. He knew he was going to crush them... Baer and Conn couldn't shake Joe Louis... Ali couldn't bother Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Spinks, or Berbick... Those guys were not exceptionally skilled boxers except for Holmes -- yet they all knew the fight was going to be won in the ring and not with Ali's theatrics. They knew their skill and strength---while not the best---was good enough to match Ali's.

And to your other question... Miguel Cotto nailed Floyd Mayweather with some very nice jabs, flush in the face... Roger had to break out the King Sized Q-Tips...dip them in coagulants...and shove them up Floyd's nose to stem the blood flow... Floyd brought his dad back into camp to tighten his defense up... Floyd didn't really get along with his dad very well -- but when it came to winning fights Floyd did whatever he needed to do.

I guess this is obviously a gag thread because Lennox Lewis is not one of the choices.

AJ is definitely the best Heavyweight of all time... Lewis was knocked cold by guys who weren't nearly as good as AJ.

If fail to see any Heavyweight in Fistic History who matched up with AJ's combination package of height... weight... reach... jab... speed... strength... skillsets as: right hand... left hook... body attack... counter punching skills... ring control and footwork... and finishing ability... and defense... Maybe Luis Ortiz is a better defender for now...and a slicker counterpuncher and absorbs a punch as well as AJ... The man is 37 and fading quickly... But the time they meet he'll be done.

Kalan wrote:AJ is definitely the best Heavyweight of all time... Lewis was knocked cold by guys who weren't nearly as good as AJ.

If fail to see any Heavyweight in Fistic History who matched up with AJ's combination package of height... weight... reach... jab... speed... strength... skillsets as: right hand... left hook... body attack... counter punching skills... ring control and footwork... and finishing ability... and defense... Maybe Luis Ortiz is a better defender for now...and a slicker counterpuncher and absorbs a punch as well as AJ... The man is 37 and fading quickly... But the time they meet he'll be done.

You certainly ARE!!!! .... You got that right!!!!

Dillian Whyte clearly hurt Joshua in the second round and landed a fair few shots too - Does this make him the second best heavy of all time? :-)

Kalan wrote:AJ is definitely the best Heavyweight of all time... Lewis was knocked cold by guys who weren't nearly as good as AJ.

If fail to see any Heavyweight in Fistic History who matched up with AJ's combination package of height... weight... reach... jab... speed... strength... skillsets as: right hand... left hook... body attack... counter punching skills... ring control and footwork... and finishing ability... and defense... Maybe Luis Ortiz is a better defender for now...and a slicker counterpuncher and absorbs a punch as well as AJ... The man is 37 and fading quickly... But the time they meet he'll be done.

cfang wrote:Dillian Whyte clearly hurt Joshua in the second round and landed a fair few shots too - Does this make him the second best heavy of all time? :-)

Kalan wrote:AJ is definitely the best Heavyweight of all time... Lewis was knocked cold by guys who weren't nearly as good as AJ.

If fail to see any Heavyweight in Fistic History who matched up with AJ's combination package of height... weight... reach... jab... speed... strength... skillsets as: right hand... left hook... body attack... counter punching skills... ring control and footwork... and finishing ability... and defense... Maybe Luis Ortiz is a better defender for now...and a slicker counterpuncher and absorbs a punch as well as AJ... The man is 37 and fading quickly... But the time they meet he'll be done.

I have spoken to people who argue that Joshua has been tested because he fought Dillian Whyte, who is good. And when you ask why they think Dillian Whyte is good they say it's because he did so well against Joshua.

Keko wrote:Ali 51%
Louis 49%
Close for me but Ali is nr1!

I'm disappointed that more people haven't voted for Wilt!

Syntax Error wrote:

Keko wrote:Ali 51%
Louis 49%
Close for me but Ali is nr1!

I'm disappointed that more people haven't voted for Wilt!

Sorry