BoxRec

Kalan ^ ^ [Thanks for trying that!] Lyle first in this group? You know...when I rated this I rated them 1st SHAVERS 2 Norton 3 Lyle. Straw vote between one and two: Norton two out of three. Definetly this vote is between Norton and Shavers. Lyle certainly is third place.
Ken's three matches vs Ali make the big difference in this. I place Ken Norton a.t. 1ST place among the three.

Is GEORGE FOREMAN name darkened in the rating scheme because Ambling Alp picks George 1ST??

allInmoderationAIM wrote:Kalan ^ ^ [Thanks for trying that!] Lyle first in this group? You know...when I rated this I rated them 1st SHAVERS 2 Norton 3 Lyle. Straw vote between one and two: Norton two out of three. Definetly this vote is between Norton and Shavers. Lyle certainly is third place.
Ken's three matches vs Ali make the big difference in this. I place Ken Norton a.t. 1ST place among the three.

Norton was knocked out by every big puncher he faced -- and he DUCKED Lyle who wanted to fight him... The Lyle-Foreman fight could have gone either way -- Foreman was also down twice and very badly hurt -- but it went George's way probably because he had a tad stronger chin and a little more strength.. The Foreman Shavers fight was only going one way.. Lyle had the stronger chin and punch.. He was much bigger and stronger, and would have destroyed the chinny, face first Norton as well.

If you watch Lyle-Shavers it's very reminiscent to Shavers vs Quarry, Stander, Cobb, Mercado, etc.. Lyle was absorbing bombs that Shavers couldn't take.

Norton couldn't take anything much without going out -- unless he was WAY bigger and stronger.

Kalan, first of all it's confusing you putting Foreman Shavers names side by side as if you have one name there! Foreman-Lyle I call it "the luck of the draw". Mood swings.
Their is no way in Hell to RATE these three boxers a.t. other than how I laid this out already. IF LYLE could beat Norton one up I'm not so sure. Sure. He could. But, not such a sure thing like how you line- it!
Any boxing historian worth his/her salt gonna weigh the three Norton battles vs Ali very high.
And, Ron Lyle had good power but he wasn't magic with it!! Look at his record again. You are putting too much emphasis on the Foreman fight. That was one fight only.
Easy Ron falls out of the conversation right away. The true argument is between NORTON/ SHAVERS.
You good at making poems ryme but I know better than you on this pick. I've already been studying it years and we have out a near 20,000 distribution comparing the three fighters one with another a.t./ratings.
ONE ANSWER here!

For me it's the chin.. Norton didn't have one and was destroyed by Garcia, Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney... Lyle had a decent chin.. He blew out Shavers and almost did the same for Foreman... Lyle couldn't box and neither could Norton. I'm going by their Foreman and Shavers fights... Those 2 swingers were very easy to outbox by anyone who had skills such as Young, Holmes, or Ali.

Kalan, first-of-all..Cooney match needn't be included. It was criminal.
Appears Ken may of been "shot" by the time he fights Ernie. I mean..look how close to heels it was w/Scott LeDoux. Well known Ken is a used-up at that point (SCOTT CAN'T PUNCH!). Against George. Yes, & true! But..George at his peak right then. Everyone feared him! [little adjusting and we wouldn't of had Ali career extension]. Garcia? These things happen! Little twist here and there..Henry Cooper-Ali 1 woulda been Norton-Garcia 1.
If you look at KEN vs Ali ANY OF THEIR FIGHTS..you won't say he ISN'T A BOXER! : )
"Wow", he was boxing great!
Did you look at Ron's career again? W-split decision vs LeDoux.
Not sure how long you been involve with Boxing, Kalan.. but..you put these THREE side by side a.t. it is gonna be the vote I tabbed. Of course, in real time Ken was KO'd by Shavers in 1ST r.//Shavers was in-turn KO's by Lyle. But, whole substance of their careers 1-2-3 NORTON-SHAVERS-LYLE.
So, where should I send your $16.00 DD gift certificate??

allInmoderationAIM wrote:Kalan, first-of-all..Cooney match needn't be included. It was criminal.
Appears Ken may of been "shot" by the time he fights Ernie. I mean..look how close to heels it was w/Scott LeDoux. Well known Ken is a used-up at that point (SCOTT CAN'T PUNCH!). Against George. Yes, & true! But..George at his peak right then. Everyone feared him! [little adjusting and we wouldn't of had Ali career extension]. Garcia? These things happen! Little twist here and there..Henry Cooper-Ali 1 woulda been Norton-Garcia 1.
If you look at KEN vs Ali ANY OF THEIR FIGHTS..you won't say he ISN'T A BOXER! : )
"Wow", he was boxing great!
Did you look at Ron's career again? W-split decision vs LeDoux.
Not sure how long you been involve with Boxing, Kalan.. but..you put these THREE side by side a.t. it is gonna be the vote I tabbed. Of course, in real time Ken was KO'd by Shavers in 1ST r.//Shavers was in-turn KO's by Lyle. But, whole substance of their careers 1-2-3 NORTON-SHAVERS-LYLE.
So, where should I send your $16.00 DD gift certificate??

First of all... Just because Norton best the shlt out of Ali and shattered his jaw doesn't mean he could box... Being ripped out by Garcia, Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney shows Norton just couldn't defend himself that well... Norton was hitting Ali a lot their last 2 fights, but he was taking almost as many punches as he was landing.. If Ali could punch like Garcia, Foreman, Shavers, and Cooney, Norton would have been knocked out again.

The bottom line is Lyle knocked Shavers out.. and had Foreman out.. Norton was crushed quickly out by Shavers... and crushed quickly by Foreman.

Kalan, that ISN'T the bottom line! : ) Also: Ali did not punch as hard as Garcia? Your kidding, right?
No. The very best way to get the ultimate figure on this is for it to somehow be brought to the big stage. Then, they could interview a panel of fights experts. Unless the group was bunch of bums for boxing, we would be seeing the same read I made. IT'S SO CLEAR CUT, MAN! Ali big big big BIG in boxing history. Them three matches carry Norton over Shavers any-day!
You never say anything about the Lyle dress vs Scotty! What happen then? He used the woman's rest room that night, by mistake???
(Only joshing. I guess YOU might always RATE LYLE No. 1 in this GROUP. Yawn....
Gonna go look at Ron's record more next just to keep myself occupied)

allInmoderationAIM wrote:Kalan, that ISN'T the bottom line! : ) Also: Ali did not punch as hard as Garcia? Your kidding, right?
No. The very best way to get the ultimate figure on this is for it to somehow be brought to the big stage. Then, they could interview a panel of fights experts. Unless the group was bunch of bums for boxing, we would be seeing the same read I made. IT'S SO CLEAR CUT, MAN! Ali big big big BIG in boxing history. Them three matches carry Norton over Shavers any-day!
You never say anything about the Lyle dress vs Scotty! What happen then? He used the woman's rest room that night, by mistake???
(Only joshing. I guess YOU might always RATE LYLE No. 1 in this GROUP. Yawn....
Gonna go look at Ron's record more next just to keep myself occupied)

LOOK... 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia hit Ken Norton with a straight right hand -- andso hard hat he knocked Norton right on his ear... Ali could never do that.

And you're right... It's always going to be Lyle.. Norton.. Shavers...in that order. Shavers had 14 losses and was chinnier than Norton.

Yes, 188lbs and Ken is +19 lbs. of him. Fighters improve, man. You can't make that sort of arithmatic with this Sport, as far as what you are saying about the punch authority. I'm quite certain Muhammad Ali had very respectable power and will be RATED above any Jose Luis Garcia. What is your first Sport? Can't be boxing!
YOU are gonna forever rate it as you do. Not true boxing authorities though!

add: more Shavers is closer to Norton..than a distance from Lyle. Shavers yes was moody overall. But, Lyle afflicted likewise only his "cold" had different form. Lyle: how do you explain a no namer such as (one) Wendel Newton holding Ron to a SD? Boxer has 18-10-5 record enter.....they meet when Ron is on the raise and in his prime.
Lyle has many fights you can question SD Joe Bugner aso SD Scott LeDoux aso.
Shavers same too what with losses to the fighters he did lose to who were never elites.
But, were spoilers.
Basically, Shavers highs were much thicker and more rich Socially than Ron's were.

allInmoderationAIM wrote:add: more Shavers is closer to Norton..than a distance from Lyle. Shavers yes was moody overall. But, Lyle afflicted likewise only his "cold" had different form. Lyle: how do you explain a no namer such as (one) Wendel Newton holding Ron to a SD? Boxer has 18-10-5 record enter.....they meet when Ron is on the raise and in his prime.
Lyle has many fights you can question SD Joe Bugner aso SD Scott LeDoux aso.
Shavers same too what with losses to the fighters he did lose to who were never elites.
But, were spoilers.
Basically, Shavers highs were much thicker and more rich Socially than Ron's were.

Many boxers preform poorly after they reach a certain age... I attribute Lyle's SD win over Scott LeDoux to being 38.

I attribute Lyle's SD win over Joe Bugner with being 36 and Bugner being only 27.. And to one blind judges.. Lyle won that that fight very easily.

I would say Shavers was comparatively fresher than Ron Lyle when he fought Lyle... Earnie was 4 years younger: 30 for Shavers 34 for Lyle... Shavers had suffered 4 losses out of a career 14 losses... Lyle had suffered 3 losses of a career 7 losses... As far as damage it was pretty even.

Explain it against Wendal Newton? Ron is young then!! I mean..it is early for him. I'll take your notes and go look at this again. Ron..I think, has same performance patterns thru-out. His performance patterns always are bit MOODY! [you'll agree!]. You sure are digging hard to try to overturn my belief!

Beliefs can be like religion for some Boxing fans... Some Pacquiao fans still believe he beat Mayweather... They put slow motion videos and everything else on YouTube trying to prove Pac won. They also insist Castillo, De La Hoya, and Maidana beat Mayweather... That's just one example of fans who refuse to see the other side.. You have the Klitschko haters who won't budge.. There are none so blind as those who won't see.

All I can do is point out why Lyle was better than Shavers... You won't agree... But I think the strongest argument is: Shavers was 30 and Lyle 34 when they fought. Normally a reason 2 guys fight is to determine who's the better fighter -- it usually settles the argument if there's a decisive winner.

Kalan wrote:

allInmoderationAIM wrote:Kalan, that ISN'T the bottom line! : ) Also: Ali did not punch as hard as Garcia? Your kidding, right?
No. The very best way to get the ultimate figure on this is for it to somehow be brought to the big stage. Then, they could interview a panel of fights experts. Unless the group was bunch of bums for boxing, we would be seeing the same read I made. IT'S SO CLEAR CUT, MAN! Ali big big big BIG in boxing history. Them three matches carry Norton over Shavers any-day!
You never say anything about the Lyle dress vs Scotty! What happen then? He used the woman's rest room that night, by mistake???
(Only joshing. I guess YOU might always RATE LYLE No. 1 in this GROUP. Yawn....
Gonna go look at Ron's record more next just to keep myself occupied)

LOOK... 188-pound Jose Luis Garcia hit Ken Norton with a straight right hand -- andso hard hat he knocked Norton right on his ear... Ali could never do that.

And you're right... It's always going to be Lyle.. Norton.. Shavers...in that order. Shavers had 14 losses and was chinnier than Norton.

And a 183lb Lolenga Mock decked David Haye heavily while Wladimir Klitschko never hurt him. Tyson Fury decked by ex cruiser Cunningham, Wladimir couldn't hurt him. It happens in boxing. You don't understand this because you don't understand boxing.

Tuan_Jim wrote:And a 183lb Lolenga Mock decked David Haye heavily while Wladimir Klitschko never hurt him. Tyson Fury decked by ex cruiser Cunningham, Wladimir couldn't hurt him. It happens in boxing. You don't understand this because you don't understand boxing.

I have a very deep understanding of Boxing and punching power... I understand all about getting a good lick on a guy... It happens to the best.. Fury was the only man ever to KO Cunningham because he can hit a lot harder than Cunningham... Fury was off balance when Cunningham hit him... Rahman wasn't a good puncher -- but he sure as HELL hit Lewis with a perfect, fully loaded shot... Lewis knew he was going to run over Rahman in the rematch because he knew it was a lottery shot that did him in.

The guy who consistently knocks people out... The guy who backs the other guy up... The guy who chases the other guy around the ring if he's landing more punches -- because ineffective aggression doesn't mean anything -- is the guy with the most strength and power. It's reflected in KO ratio, but also reflected in the caliber of guys you fought.. You could try to fight the best.. You could pad your record like crazy as Earnie Shavers did... Your power might drop off because you've been hurt and knocked out a few times..

David Haye has great speed and power... He's a tremendous puncher... It makes no difference if he was overmatched when he had 10 fights or if somebody else floored him as a cruiserweight... He wasn't knocked out cold on the floor like Earnie Shavers -- by 3rd rate fighters like Ron Stander.

Did Ron Lyle or Ron Stander catch Shavers with lucky shots??? ... NO!!! ... They beat him flat into the canvas.

Kalan wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:And a 183lb Lolenga Mock decked David Haye heavily while Wladimir Klitschko never hurt him. Tyson Fury decked by ex cruiser Cunningham, Wladimir couldn't hurt him. It happens in boxing. You don't understand this because you don't understand boxing.

I have a very deep understanding of Boxing and punching power... I understand all about getting a good lick on a guy... It happens to the best.. Fury was the only man ever to KO Cunningham because he can hit a lot harder than Cunningham... Fury was off balance when Cunningham hit him... Rahman wasn't a good puncher -- but he sure as HELL hit Lewis with a perfect, fully loaded shot... Lewis knew he was going to run over Rahman in the rematch because he knew it was a lottery shot that did him in.

The guy who consistently knocks people out... The guy who backs the other guy up... The guy who chases the other guy around the ring if he's landing more punches -- because ineffective aggression doesn't mean anything -- is the guy with the most strength and power. It's reflected in KO ratio, but also reflected in the caliber of guys you fought.. You could try to fight the best.. You could pad your record like crazy as Earnie Shavers did... Your power might drop off because you've been hurt and knocked out a few times..

David Haye has great speed and power... He's a tremendous puncher... It makes no difference if he was overmatched when he had 10 fights or if somebody else floored him as a cruiserweight... He wasn't knocked out cold on the floor like Earnie Shavers -- by 3rd rate fighters like Ron Stander.

Did Ron Lyle or Ron Stander catch Shavers with lucky shots??? ... NO!!! ... They beat him flat into the canvas.

So a novice Earnie Shavers is downgraded for losing in 5 to iron chin Ron Stander, a novice David Haye is let off the hook for losing in 5 to 40 year old glass chin Carl Thompson. As always your lack of consistency shows you up for the clueless grasping dimwit that you are.

If you had a brain in your head Tuan-Jim -- you'd realize Thompson had 38 fights... was on a roll... and was still a World Cruiserweight Champion. He just knocked out a guy with 1 loss in 20 fights and finished his career with 6 straight wins.. Haye had only 10 fights, so it was WAY too early to put him in with the IBO World Cruiserweight Champion... Haye got caught with a great shot which can happen to anybody -- especially a green kid. Haye was on his feet when his fight was stopped

In contrast Shavers was going into his 14th fight -- going against the super green Ron Stander who had only 9 fights -- but it was Shavers who got knocked cold... Stander never learned how to box like Thompson.. He didn't finish his career like Thompson with a World Title -- Stander was getting murdered by guys with 2 fights and NO fights at the end.. He was a walking punching bag.

Once again your Boxrec skimming fails you. Those of us watching Thompson at the time remember him lumbering to a points win over Paul Bonson(!) and being asked whether he was shot. Thompson had been KOd by the journeyman Ezra Sellers. Thompson was an old journeyman and had only a handful of fights in 3 years when he fought Haye. He was 40 and was getting beaten badly when he KOd Rothamann - a man coming out of his backyard in South Africa for the first time & was KOd several times after Thompson. Thompson bashed Haye. It happens.

"Stander didn't finish his career like Thompson with a World Title" - haha - the titles Thompson won didn't exist in Stander's day. Standers challenged the undisputed heavyweight title. Thomspon never got near a major world title, which is why he boxed for WBO and IBO belts.

Basically, Shavers highs were much thicker and more rich Socially than Ron's were.
^ what I said on 25 July. Ron 36 vs Joe Bugner and 38 vs Scott LeDoux. Yeah O.K., I buy it! But don't forget...Ron didn't even turn pro until he was what age? 30, two months and 11 days! So, his whole shebang is created while he is in his 30's. I APPRECIATE RON LYLE!
His first real test came in his #8 vs Manuel Ramos who was 24-19-3 by then. That resulted in WUD-10.
Two bouts later, Lyle gets another good test matched w/ Giant Jack O'Halloran. Here he scores a 4r KO (10).
Then next, he meets -a- Bill Drover w/nice numbers 31-9-3 (Drover had a 10r draw vs Bugner in 1971; LUD-10 vs Jose Luis Garcia in 1970). Then, Ron had a good run before Quarry. Then..against Jerry of course.. now you could say he runs into a damper. When he comes back..he did opposite of Shavers when he wins UD-10 vs Bob Stallings (Shavers, I know you remember lost decision vs Bob Stallings). Next, a 12-1 record -loss to Jimmy Young- over the next 26 months put him into the match against Ali/ championship.
There...Lyle does distinctly well actually before, Ali lulls him off course in a late round.
After Ali was Shavers, 49-4-1 a.t.t. And then four months past Shavers, was Foreman match.
Past Foreman, 8 mo., Lyle won against journeyman Kevin Isaac. Then two months past Isaac, he rematch Jimmy Young. Now 12 r. Again, Young would win. Young, Lyle, Shavers have a pretty strong triangle. And I am sure you are aware of that.
Past the fight with Jimmy Young now he comes to Joe Bugner. Your saying Ron past it at this point. Joe is 27 and Ron is 36 by now.
And the Scott LeDoux match is further away still [watched that film now..where they each nearly knock one another out..several times...]
Career, a.t. NORTON, SHAVERS, LYLE in that order.
Kalan where would you rate JERRY QUARRY in there?? Oh, but you got to use the pegs established! : )
GEORGE CHUVALO?
I like them THREE because, in my vision it is clear cut. Probably there are other THREE PICKS that also have same definition.
Active fighters I normally do not like to include in a.t. until they have been inactive/retired at least five years!

allInmoderationAIM wrote:Explain it against Wendal Newton? Ron is young then!!

It was a poor performance by Lyle but to be fair to him Newton ran and held most of the fight, was booed throughout and warned by the ref to stop running and fight. It can be hard to look good against a spoiler.

Controversial wrote:

allInmoderationAIM wrote:Explain it against Wendal Newton? Ron is young then!!

It was a poor performance by Lyle but to be fair to him Newton ran and held most of the fight, was booed throughout and warned by the ref to stop running and fight. It can be hard to look good against a spoiler.

Hi Controversial. Thank you for that. But...may I ask how might you know these things?
And..I looked Wendel's record up too OC and..after seeing his print record I say I am forced to recognize/respect the man on his 'name' lot more!

Someone here talking about David Haye..& that first loss he has. The match vs Carl Thompson.
Carl Thompson held WBO from 1999 (is it?). I've got the WBO becoming full bloom in mid-year 1997. So.. I would say that a statement such as "never getting near.................#...."/you got to wonder what a person thinks of the WBO these days then, too! I mean..YES/NO. NO/YES. I do agree that boxing has gotten snip-uppy in these modern times.
I wrote e-mail to A Ny Post writer about, four or five days ago..."good chap" came BACK! My topic was Boxing! The writer don't cover but his Sport specialty and it AIN'T OUR! But...he remembered to me a time when boxing WAS greatly popular.
Could boxing get up/better again? Maybe it could. If certain stuff were ironed out!
Anyway, only commenting about the COMMENT.
Who am I? I can't effect anything.
Haye one of the top Big men in Boxing nowaday. I don't put much weight on that loss either. David Haye got over all that! But..myself, really really Give Thompson and the WBO the credibility. Early on them, no. And we don't need more development. And we didn't need the multiplying either but.....it did multiply and we see what we see here in our present situation/Day.

Another thing..What IS a Journeyman, then? Ezra Sellers did things in the Ring that most men only dream of accomplishing. I WOULDN'T call him a Journeyman. Maybe different folk have different ideas hey, of what a Journeyman is I think.
Sellers, "The late"......turned pro unbelievably against 5-0-0 Bruce Seldon. RIP Ezra Sellers..pret. famous boxer name if you ask me! ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^