BoxRec

Flump wrote:He certainly wasn't the quickest on his feet but his timing was so good that he could negate his opponent, an absolute legend and a serious contender for greatest heavyweight of all time.

Agreed Mr Flump.

But I have watched interviews in which Louis' opponents discuss his unusual foot movement.

Joe used to take very small steps in the ring, so that his closing-down-the-distance would be very deceptive and it didn't fully show off his fast footwork.

Kalan wrote:He didn't kill Conn very fast.. Billy Conn did get hit.. Conn got beaten 9 times before Louis laid him out.. But Louis was damned easy to hit with fast punches by Billy Conn. Conn ripped Louis for 12 rounds..

I suppose it doesn't matter that Billy Conn fought the fight of his life that night.

Sometimes in this sport a boxer raises above himself and produces an incredible performance that he (more-than-likely) would never be able to replicate again.

Look at what Buster Douglas did to Tyson.
And howsabout Hasim Rahman defeating Lennox Lewis?

It all goes back to the same thing as Conn putting it up to Louis. Thet completely raise above themselves.

Tuan_Jim wrote:It also contradicts Kalan's great logic that the giant Wilt Chamerlain could 'obviously' hurt Ali because "little" heavyweights like Henry Cooper and Joe Frazier had knocked him down. The super middleweight Lolenga Mock decked and badly hurt Haye, as did ageing the cruiserweights Carl Thompson and Jean Marc Mormeck - so exactly how did Haye stay on his feet vs the mighty 6'6" X 245 Wladimir Klitschko? It's almost as if something called boxing came into play.

If HEIGHT IS MIGHT - as his argument seems to say.

I an really looking forward to his explanation of Nikolai Valuev being the best Heavyweight ever.

I mean, he has to be doesn't he? This is the way the wind is blowing in this logic of his.

Crease wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:It also contradicts Kalan's great logic that the giant Wilt Chamerlain could 'obviously' hurt Ali because "little" heavyweights like Henry Cooper and Joe Frazier had knocked him down. The super middleweight Lolenga Mock decked and badly hurt Haye, as did ageing the cruiserweights Carl Thompson and Jean Marc Mormeck - so exactly how did Haye stay on his feet vs the mighty 6'6" X 245 Wladimir Klitschko? It's almost as if something called boxing came into play.

If HEIGHT IS MIGHT - as his argument seems to say.

I an really looking forward to his explanation of Nikolai Valuev being the best Heavyweight ever.

I mean, he has to be doesn't he? This is the way the wind is blowing in this logic of his.

Haye had a lot of holes in his game and he closed them all up... The same thing Wladimir did when he got Steward... Louis closed many of his holes... Foreman partially improved his defense, but closing those holes is much tougher for an older athlete... Valuev was the slowest human on the planet in his day -- and Wilt Chamberlain was one of the fastest, and a super athlete. It took Valuev 10 minutes just to get out of bed. His only asset was his size.

Woah....you musta forgot.

Valuev was really really tall.

Kalan wrote:

Crease wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:It also contradicts Kalan's great logic that the giant Wilt Chamerlain could 'obviously' hurt Ali because "little" heavyweights like Henry Cooper and Joe Frazier had knocked him down. The super middleweight Lolenga Mock decked and badly hurt Haye, as did ageing the cruiserweights Carl Thompson and Jean Marc Mormeck - so exactly how did Haye stay on his feet vs the mighty 6'6" X 245 Wladimir Klitschko? It's almost as if something called boxing came into play.

If HEIGHT IS MIGHT - as his argument seems to say.

I an really looking forward to his explanation of Nikolai Valuev being the best Heavyweight ever.

I mean, he has to be doesn't he? This is the way the wind is blowing in this logic of his.

Haye had a lot of holes in his game and he closed them all up... The same thing Wladimir did when he got Steward... Louis closed many of his holes... Foreman partially improved his defense, but closing those holes is much tougher for an older athlete... Valuev was the slowest human on the planet in his day -- and Wilt Chamberlain was one of the fastest, and a super athlete. It took Valuev 10 minutes just to get out of bed. His only asset was his size.

But still you haven't explained how the super middle Lolenga Mock and the aged cruisers Thompson and Mormeck could knock Haye down heavily while the 6'6" X 245 Wladimir Klitschko failed to make a dent in him. What happened? Because, according to your posts about Earnie Shavers, an opponent lasting the distance with you means that they withstood all of your best punches because you obviously must have landed all of your best punches and therefore you didn't have the power to hurt them.

I look forward to reading your explanation of all these contradictions, and already am seeing it as a man having to spin about 100 plates without smashing any of them. Good luck.

Kalan wrote:
Haye had a lot of holes in his game and he closed them all up... The same thing Wladimir did when he got Steward... Louis closed many of his holes... Foreman partially improved his defense, but closing those holes is much tougher for an older athlete...

Yes its called gaining experience

Tuan_Jim wrote: The super middleweight Lolenga Mock decked and badly hurt Haye, as did ageing the cruiserweights Carl Thompson and Jean Marc Mormeck - so exactly how did Haye stay on his feet vs the mighty 6'6" X 245 Wladimir Klitschko? It's almost as if something called boxing came into play.

Talking of Carl Thompson remember Chris Eubank, a blown up middleweight not known for his punch power, decked Thompson and went 12 rounds with him. He gave Thompson a harder fight than Haye did, not bad considering Eubank was much smaller than Haye and had never fought at cruiserweight before. He even took Thompson's punches better than Haye.

BoxBuzz wrote:Woah....you musta forgot.

Valuev was really really tall.

He was. And REALLY REALLY heavy.

BoxBuzz wrote:Woah....you musta forgot. Valuev was really really tall.

You musta forgot how to read: "Valuev was the slowest human on the planet in his day -- and Wilt Chamberlain was one of the fastest, and a super athlete. It took Valuev 10 minutes just to get out of bed. His only asset was his size."

Do you judge a man by his height and appearance - or his talents and accomplishments??? Do you judge a book by it's cover or it's contents??? ... Folks like you make instant judgments about people based on their race, nationality, height, weight, dress, and overall appearance... Like Joe Biden once famously said in 2008, "He's crisp.. he's clean.. he's confident.. he's articulate and intelligent.." People immediately jumped all over Biden because he sounded so paternalistic and shallow... BuzzBox you try to sound paternalistic and don't quite get there...but you do nail the shallowness.

Cmon.....Valuev took 10 minutes to get out of bed, and practice his craft, and ended up miraculously fighting his way to a belt. No talk, just slow hard work. Like a DMV sloth.

But....he accomplished his dream of obtaining a belt, by getting into the mix, and succeeding at his chosen craft.....even if only in a limited way.


What the big Giant Sloth DID NOT DO....is make a bunch of noise about beating some champion, but only if he got to have ONE big fight and only if he was paid a boat load of money for one "special ticket" to the brass ring.

So he talked not so much, hyped not so much, fought for chump change for a while, and ended up falling into a belt combining chance with hard work.


Wilt never entered the arena.......he just blew hard, and hoped, and destiny just walked right by him, in the boxing arena.

Probably better than having Ali walk right over him in the squared circle.

conn did not batter louis for 12 rounds...billy would have had to beat louis for one more round to have clinched the decision.....that round could have been the 13th....and louis knew it...

Conn hammered Louis pretty good for a guy who weighed 174.. He was winning to that point.. If he weighed 200 he would have beaten Louis with ease.

BoxBuzz wrote:Cmon.....Valuev took 10 minutes to get out of bed, and practice his craft, and ended up miraculously fighting his way to a belt. No talk, just slow hard work. Like a DMV sloth.

But....he accomplished his dream of obtaining a belt, by getting into the mix, and succeeding at his chosen craft.....even if only in a limited way.


What the big Giant Sloth DID NOT DO....is make a bunch of noise about beating some champion, but only if he got to have ONE big fight and only if he was paid a boat load of money for one "special ticket" to the brass ring.

So he talked not so much, hyped not so much, fought for chump change for a while, and ended up falling into a belt combining chance with hard work.


Wilt never entered the arena.......he just blew hard, and hoped, and destiny just walked right by him, in the boxing arena.

Probably better than having Ali walk right over him in the squared circle.

Wilt didn't blow hard... His interest was in getting the actual Heavyweight Title Fight and beating Ali.. Ali's interest was in getting the publicity and doing the Dog & Pony Show.. Ali blew hard but Chamberlain never did.. He produced pens and kept asking Ali to sign the contract -- which Ali never did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

Kalan wrote:Conn hammered Louis pretty good for a guy who weighed 174.. He was winning to that point.. If he weighed 200 he would have beaten Louis with ease.

OR with all that extra weight, it effects his speed - slows him diwn. So that he can't be as pacey and elusive against Joe.

Which subsequently results in an even earlier KO victory jor Joe.

If Conn weighed 200 pounds he'd have the flab rolls of areola.

Crease wrote:

Kalan wrote:Conn hammered Louis pretty good for a guy who weighed 174.. He was winning to that point.. If he weighed 200 he would have beaten Louis with ease.

OR with all that extra weight, it effects his speed - slows him diwn. So that he can't be as pacey and elusive against Joe.

Which subsequently results in an even earlier KO victory jor Joe.

Too technical for Kalan.

Your dumbness.. To be heavier, and in the same physical condition, he would need to be a much bigger man... There's no requirement he be a slower man.

With the same speed and technical skills but with a body as big as Louis's... Conn wins easy.

Conn was effective because he was light & could be fleet footed. Ever seen one of those 6'5, 250lb behemoths against Louis? Size & brute strength didn't work much against such a precise, measured technician. Louis, like David Haye and Cassius Clay, had his worst moments versus smaller men.

Tuan_Jim wrote:Conn was effective because he was light & could be fleet footed. Ever seen one of those 6'5, 250lb behemoths against Louis? Size & brute strength didn't work much against such a precise, measured technician. Louis, like David Haye and Cassius Clay, had his worst moments versus smaller men.

Because Louis never met a fast and highly skilled big man. Big Heavyweights of his day were clumsy oafs like Abe Simon.

You know little about human physiology ... Fast hands, quick feet, and overall athletic speed and agility are not portioned out in direct relationship to size, height, reach, and strength.. Many boxers much smaller than Conn were very slow, such as: Gene Fullmer, Jake LaMotta, Arthur Abraham, Paul Pender, Tony Sibson, and William Joppy... Many boxers much bigger than Joe Louis were fast, such as: David Haye, Wladimir Klitschko, Muhammad Ali, Larry Homes, Anthony Joshua, and Jack Johnson when they were at their peak... Speed is only one (1) lonely attribute such as height.. Any attribute is only great if you put it to good use - and have many other attributes to compliment it. Having fast hands doesn't mean you have fast feet.

Many good sized Heavyweights such as Kirk Johnson, Buster Douglas, Corrie Sanders, and Larry Donald had good natural hand and foot speed — but never developed that speed to the greatest use because of very lazy and inconsistent training habits.. Also poor development of their physical strength and conditioning potential and failure to develop technical skills.

Kalan wrote:His interest was in getting the actual Heavyweight Title Fight and beating Ali.. Ali's interest was in getting the publicity and doing the Dog & Pony Show.. Ali blew hard but Chamberlain never did.. He produced pens and kept asking Ali to sign the contract -- which Ali never did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

Oh wow!

Kalan, you are right in everything you say, Wilt Chamberlain did actually call Ali out on live television & Ali DUCKED him.

Holy cow!!!!!

It kinda reminds me of Shannon Briggs calling out Wladimir Klitchsco (repeatedly) and big Wladimir ducking him.

Also it's a wee bit like The Great Charlie Zelenoff challenging that ducker, Pretty Boy Floyd - and the millionaire running away as far as he could.

And historically we have Pete Rademacher challenging the champ, Floyd Patterson.

Listen you idiot... Ali promised REPEATEDLY that he would fight Chamberlain and appeared on TV shows and promotions with Wilt saying he would fight Chamberlain... Ali wanted all the publicity such a fight would generate without signing for the fight.

That a little different than Shannon Briggs demanding a World Title Shot and Wladimir telling him to pound sand.

Don't know where you get this from - Sibbo wasn't slow, he had pretty fast hands - if you watch the minter win he unloads the final combinations quick as a flash. Ditto la motta - he wasn't slow either.

Kalan wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:Conn was effective because he was light & could be fleet footed. Ever seen one of those 6'5, 250lb behemoths against Louis? Size & brute strength didn't work much against such a precise, measured technician. Louis, like David Haye and Cassius Clay, had his worst moments versus smaller men.

Because Louis never met a fast and highly skilled big man. Big Heavyweights of his day were clumsy oafs like Abe Simon.

You know little about human physiology ... Fast hands, quick feet, and overall athletic speed and agility are not portioned out in direct relationship to size, height, reach, and strength.. Many boxers much smaller than Conn were very slow, such as: Gene Fullmer, Jake LaMotta, Arthur Abraham, Paul Pender, Tony Sibson, and William Joppy... Many boxers much bigger than Joe Louis were fast, such as: David Haye, Wladimir Klitschko, Muhammad Ali, Larry Homes, Anthony Joshua, and Jack Johnson when they were at their peak... Speed is only one (1) lonely attribute such as height.. Any attribute is only great if you put it to good use - and have many other attributes to compliment it. Having fast hands doesn't mean you have fast feet.

Many good sized Heavyweights such as Kirk Johnson, Buster Douglas, Corrie Sanders, and Larry Donald had good natural hand and foot speed — but never developed that speed to the greatest use because of very lazy and inconsistent training habits.. Also poor development of their physical strength and conditioning potential and failure to develop technical skills.

Joe Louis once said.."thank God too tall or wilt weren't around in my day. I might have pulled a muscle in my shoulder knocking them out in 12 seconds."

A wise man once said.., "SaadOffTheDeck is the biggest liar and BS artist in the History of Planet Earth."