BoxRec

Kalan wrote:

Crease wrote:

Kalan wrote:I think so... Graham was the number one contender at one point and Hagler fought once a year in 1985, '86, and '87. Who gets away with that???

Get your facts straight for godsake. Bomber Graham didn't make an impact in the division until he won the European title in February '86, Hagler lost his titles in April '87. Maybe Graham would have gotten at fight with Hagler had he not lost his European title against in May '87.

Stop twisting facts.. Graham won 38 straight fights... there's a lot of space between Fab '86 and April '87... at that point he was number one and Hagler could have fought him -- since Hag was fighting once a year.

Would Marvelous waste his time fighting a bum like Herol Graham for $2 million dollars instead for a showdown with the great Sugar Ray Leonard for more than $10 million dollars?

Do the math. Marvelous went through the rankings in the 70s decade fighting for peanuts against the top middleweight conteders that nobody wanted to fight. He had to fight over 40 fights to get a title shot. He cleaned up the division before becoming world champion. His hard road to glory ended when he went to London, England and kicked Alan Minter's ass in only 3 rounds for the title. The fans threw all kinds of beer bottles to the ring, tarnishing his accomplishment. He took all comers for 7 years as champion, ducking nobody.

What did Marvelous had to prove by fighting Herol Graham? Nothing. He already proved that he was a great champion and an all time pound per pound great. You cannot fight everybody, even if you can. That happened to all the great boxers.

After all those years of suffering, it's time to be compensated well. That's not only in boxing, but in all aspects of life. No matter the profession you're in. And Marvelous deserved every little penny of a multi million dollar fight with Sugar Ray. It was well deserved.

elmersalsa wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Crease wrote:

Get your facts straight for godsake. Bomber Graham didn't make an impact in the division until he won the European title in February '86, Hagler lost his titles in April '87. Maybe Graham would have gotten at fight with Hagler had he not lost his European title against in May '87.

Stop twisting facts.. Graham won 38 straight fights... there's a lot of space between Fab '86 and April '87... at that point he was number one and Hagler could have fought him -- since Hag was fighting once a year.

Would Marvelous waste his time fighting a bum like Herol Graham for $2 million dollars instead for a showdown with the great Sugar Ray Leonard for more than $10 million dollars?

Do the math. Marvelous went through the rankings in the 70s decade fighting for peanuts against the top middleweight conteders that nobody wanted to fight. He had to fight over 40 fights to get a title shot. He cleaned up the division before becoming world champion. His hard road to glory ended when he went to London, England and kicked Alan Minter's ass in only 3 rounds for the title. The fans threw all kinds of beer bottles to the ring, tarnishing his accomplishment. He took all comers for 7 years as champion, ducking nobody.

What did Marvelous had to prove by fighting Herol Graham? Nothing. He already proved that he was a great champion and an all time pound per pound great. You cannot fight everybody, even if you can. That happened to all the great boxers.

After all those years of suffering, it's time to be compensated well. That's not only in boxing, but in all aspects of life. No matter the profession you're in. And Marvelous deserved every little penny of a multi million dollar fight with Sugar Ray. It was well deserved.

Great post Elmer

elmersalsa wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Crease wrote:

Get your facts straight for godsake. Bomber Graham didn't make an impact in the division until he won the European title in February '86, Hagler lost his titles in April '87. Maybe Graham would have gotten at fight with Hagler had he not lost his European title against in May '87.

Stop twisting facts.. Graham won 38 straight fights... there's a lot of space between Fab '86 and April '87... at that point he was number one and Hagler could have fought him -- since Hag was fighting once a year.

Would Marvelous waste his time fighting a bum like Herol Graham for $2 million dollars instead for a showdown with the great Sugar Ray Leonard for more than $10 million dollars?

Do the math. Marvelous went through the rankings in the 70s decade fighting for peanuts against the top middleweight conteders that nobody wanted to fight. He had to fight over 40 fights to get a title shot. He cleaned up the division before becoming world champion. His hard road to glory ended when he went to London, England and kicked Alan Minter's ass in only 3 rounds for the title. The fans threw all kinds of beer bottles to the ring, tarnishing his accomplishment. He took all comers for 7 years as champion, ducking nobody.

What did Marvelous had to prove by fighting Herol Graham? Nothing. He already proved that he was a great champion and an all time pound per pound great. You cannot fight everybody, even if you can. That happened to all the great boxers.

After all those years of suffering, it's time to be compensated well. That's not only in boxing, but in all aspects of life. No matter the profession you're in. And Marvelous deserved every little penny of a multi million dollar fight with Sugar Ray. It was well deserved.

Kalan wrote:

Crease wrote:

Kalan wrote:I think so... Graham was the number one contender at one point and Hagler fought once a year in 1985, '86, and '87. Who gets away with that???

Get your facts straight for godsake. Bomber Graham didn't make an impact in the division until he won the European title in February '86, Hagler lost his titles in April '87. Maybe Graham would have gotten at fight with Hagler had he not lost his European title against in May '87.

Stop twisting facts.. Graham won 38 straight fights... there's a lot of space between Fab '86 and April '87... at that point he was number one and Hagler could have fought him -- since Hag was fighting once a year.

When you think of all that Marvellous Marvin Hagler achieved in his career & you're sweating him because he never fought the virtual non-entity that was Herol Graham?

Yes, Herol was number one contender & yes, he probably would have frustrated the hell out of an ageing & slow Hagler, but I don't ever recall there being a clamour to see these two fight.

Hagler had more than paid his dues by 1986 & if any fighter deserved to wind his career down & bow out with a mega payday, due to him.

Syntax Error wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Crease wrote:

Get your facts straight for godsake. Bomber Graham didn't make an impact in the division until he won the European title in February '86, Hagler lost his titles in April '87. Maybe Graham would have gotten at fight with Hagler had he not lost his European title against in May '87.

Stop twisting facts.. Graham won 38 straight fights... there's a lot of space between Fab '86 and April '87... at that point he was number one and Hagler could have fought him -- since Hag was fighting once a year.

When you think of all that Marvellous Marvin Hagler achieved in his career & you're sweating him because he never fought the virtual non-entity that was Herol Graham?

Yes, Herol was number one contender & yes, he probably would have frustrated the hell out of an ageing & slow Hagler, but I don't ever recall there being a clamour to see these two fight.

Hagler had more than paid his dues by 1986 & if any fighter deserved to wind his career down & bow out with a mega payday, it was him.

Well said, Syntax Error. Well said.

Well said. It really pisses me off when people - well in fact - just one person tries to slag off hagler for ducking someone - if theres ever been a fighter that didnt duck anyone its hagler. He paid his dues and anyway - he'd have trashed Graham - Graham was talented but seems so overated on these forums - he had his chances at glory and he failed.

Syntax Error wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Kalan wrote:
Stop twisting facts.. Graham won 38 straight fights... there's a lot of space between Fab '86 and April '87... at that point he was number one and Hagler could have fought him -- since Hag was fighting once a year.

Would Marvelous waste his time fighting a bum like Herol Graham for $2 million dollars instead for a showdown with the great Sugar Ray Leonard for more than $10 million dollars?

Do the math. Marvelous went through the rankings in the 70s decade fighting for peanuts against the top middleweight conteders that nobody wanted to fight. He had to fight over 40 fights to get a title shot. He cleaned up the division before becoming world champion. His hard road to glory ended when he went to London, England and kicked Alan Minter's ass in only 3 rounds for the title. The fans threw all kinds of beer bottles to the ring, tarnishing his accomplishment. He took all comers for 7 years as champion, ducking nobody.

What did Marvelous had to prove by fighting Herol Graham? Nothing. He already proved that he was a great champion and an all time pound per pound great. You cannot fight everybody, even if you can. That happened to all the great boxers.

After all those years of suffering, it's time to be compensated well. That's not only in boxing, but in all aspects of life. No matter the profession you're in. And Marvelous deserved every little penny of a multi million dollar fight with Sugar Ray. It was well deserved.

If Leonard didn't come back he would have had a rematch with Tommy. Ray's whole late career was mostly trying to 1 up hearns. From having the wbc create a title so he could match him to stealing his already agreed to rematch with Marvin. Graham was not in the picture and nobody cared. Amazing how things change through time. McCallum wasn't looking for Marvin. He moved up almost immediately after Marvin retired.

It could be an speculation on my part, but, as great Mike McCallum was, he doesn't beat Marvelous.

Prime vs prime Marvin would outbox him pretty handily.

Marvins "tip of the hat" to Mike when they had their close encounter was probably 100% sincere. Sometimes as a pro, it's not about fighting every worthy contender....sadly.

It's about what the fans will pay to see, and of course which managers will allow it to happen. And by saying "allow it to happen" does not always mean "anything goes"

Sometimes fighters feeling of self worth exceeds what the folks at the table feel will work out financially. And that prevents some very good fights.

Not because fighters don't want them, but because events do not allow for it. We should be careful when we impune a fighter for not fighting someone. It's now always about fear. It's often about finance.

When someone who "feels" they could beat the champ, is being unreasonable in the demands....it's not going to turn out well. Challengers need to go the champ with hat in hand. Then if they win, they are in a better position to call the shots.

Funny how when a fighter is a contender...he's ready for most challenges. Once champion...he has to pare down his willingness to engage.

It's a profession. Not a call to honor, in many if not most cases.

elmersalsa wrote:It could be an speculation on my part, but, as great Mike McCallum was, he doesn't beat Marvelous.

Hagler wasn't that active though...only 1 fight a year in 1985, '86, and '87... He had time to fight McCallum... And it IS speculation WHENEVER you talk about fights that didn't happen... Often they didn't happen for a very calculated reason... McCalllum was 5'11" with a terrific jab, a lot of weapons, a massive body attack, and overall defensive slickness... NOBODY ever came close to stopping McCallum -- and for me he beats Hagler at that time -- Leonard and Hearns too.

Dempsey vs. Wills

Kalan wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:It could be an speculation on my part, but, as great Mike McCallum was, he doesn't beat Marvelous.

Hagler wasn't that active though...only 1 fight a year in 1985, '86, and '87... He had time to fight McCallum... And it IS speculation WHENEVER you talk about fights that didn't happen... Often they didn't happen for a very calculated reason... McCalllum was 5'11" with a terrific jab, a lot of weapons, a massive body attack, and overall defensive slickness... NOBODY ever came close to stopping McCallum -- and for me he beats Hagler at that time -- Leonard and Hearns too.

Hagler-Mugabi/Hearns-Shuler was scheduled for November '85 but Hagler injured his back and if I remember rightly busted his nose in sparring so it got postponed. Hardly his fault.

Tuan_Jim wrote:

MaxiBoxc wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:
Vitali was in top shape - he had been scheduled to box Cedric Boswell on the undercard. He was in awful shape once Lewis was done with him.

Following the logic, Lewis was in top shape too, because he had been scheduled to box Kirk Johnson. And Lennox was outboxed by Vitali during those six rounds.

No, that's not logical.

Lennox Lewis was booked to make an easy defence against a fat opponent known for not having a strong chin or heart. That's why Lewis came in at a career heaviest - fatter even than for the first Rahman fight, another challenger he opted to take it easy for.

Vitali Klitschko came it a solid weight that was standard for him. In this particular Boswell fight, he was making his return to the world stage, having last been seen quitting against Chris Byrd. Lewis had an easy night lined up, hence the fat wasitline. Vitali had something to prove, hence the solid consistent weight.

In spite of Klitschko coming in at his standard weight, and Lewis being his fattest ever, and nearly 40, Klitschko still had hell with him.

I'm sure that Vitali's cut saved Lewis from the punishment.
Klitschko was never knoked down, because he has stone head. While Lennox was knocked out twice. Sometimes Lewis was lazy and underestimated his opponents.
Lennox knew he will never win at next time, that's why he retired. It was very smart decision.

Has any other fighter got as much credit for being stopped after 6 rounds?

No, I can't ever recall someone being called the uncrowned champion after being knocked out. He gets more credit than fighters that were on the wrong end of dubious decisions. That asswhipping is his crowning achievement.

I just looked it up again. Lennox still beat Vitali.

Some things never change.

MaxiBoxc wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

MaxiBoxc wrote: Following the logic, Lewis was in top shape too, because he had been scheduled to box Kirk Johnson. And Lennox was outboxed by Vitali during those six rounds.

No, that's not logical.

Lennox Lewis was booked to make an easy defence against a fat opponent known for not having a strong chin or heart. That's why Lewis came in at a career heaviest - fatter even than for the first Rahman fight, another challenger he opted to take it easy for.

Vitali Klitschko came it a solid weight that was standard for him. In this particular Boswell fight, he was making his return to the world stage, having last been seen quitting against Chris Byrd. Lewis had an easy night lined up, hence the fat wasitline. Vitali had something to prove, hence the solid consistent weight.

In spite of Klitschko coming in at his standard weight, and Lewis being his fattest ever, and nearly 40, Klitschko still had hell with him.

I'm sure that Vitali's cut saved Lewis from the punishment.
Klitschko was never knoked down, because he has stone head. While Lennox was knocked out twice. Sometimes Lewis was lazy and underestimated his opponents.
Lennox knew he will never win at next time, that's why he retired. It was very smart decision.

True enough!!!! ... Vitali was winning on all scorecards and the cuts were opened with foul blows: a thumb strike, immediately followed by holding and hitting illegal head work, and a holding and hitting palm rake over the face... All easily seen on the video record shortly after the start of the 3rd round...which caused the blood to spurt out... So the fight goes to the scorecard and a Unanimous TD.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:Floyd vs Kostya Tszyu

Floyd W12

I'd have to bet the other way. Fascinating fight though.

What makes you say that? Tszyu would of been schooled by Mayweather I would of bet huge on that.

keithmoonhangover wrote:The fights that should have happened, but didn't.

Which fights would you like to have seen?

And who would have won?

I'll start us off. I really wished RJJ had fought Dariusz Michalczewski and I would have picked the Pole to win by decision.

I disagree with that.. They both fought Julio Gonzalez...who beat Michalczewski solidly in Germany 116-112...but Gonzalez got trounced by Roy Jones.. I had Roy winning 120-105... Michalczewski hid in Europe and wouldn't show his face over here... He was too slow and hittable to beat prime Roy.

Remember TOP RANK completely screwing up a Gamboa-Lopez fight.

Hard to think after how little they both achieved afterwards that this was one of the most wanted fights in boxing at the time.

Kalan wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:The fights that should have happened, but didn't.

Which fights would you like to have seen?

And who would have won?

I'll start us off. I really wished RJJ had fought Dariusz Michalczewski and I would have picked the Pole to win by decision.

I disagree with that.. They both fought Julio Gonzalez...who beat Michalczewski solidly in Germany 116-112...but Gonzalez got trounced by Roy Jones.. I had Roy winning 120-105... Michalczewski hid in Europe and wouldn't show his face over here... He was too slow and hittable to beat prime Roy.

Because Dariusz was well past his best when he fought Gonzalez.

You can always claim that... He was 35... I'm sure if David Haye got beat 3rd rater nobody would let him claim the age excuse.

It didn't fly for Roy Jones when Tarver busted his ass... Tarver was older than Roy, but he was good... He's another guy Michalczewski ducked

froch v Calzaghe, think Calzaghe would have of stood his ground and traded with froch which would of made a classic