Canelo is still the Lineal MW Champion of the World? HUH? Excuse me? What did i miss?

[zorndeslammes]

Canelo is the lineal middleweight champion of the world. Adonis Steohenson is still also the lineal light heavyweight champion.

Andre Ward is actually the linear light heavyweight champion. You can go two ways with it, even, and both bring you to the same place. Arguing you can forfeit an imaginary title by retiring, even if the retirement doesn't last a calendar year, is frankly uproarious.

Actually no it's not, it's the long held criteria for stripping someone of the title. You can't judge how long someone will be retiring for, and a fights between the number one and number two could happen at Any time after that.

So Floyd Mayweather abandoned the linear welterweight title and no one has held it since 2007? Is Juan Manuel Marquez still the actual lightweight linear champ? Never lost at the weight, never retired. If not, did Hatton forfeit the junior welterweight title when he moved up to 147 and fought Collazo?

There's no consistency to any of this nonsense. Fans aren't any better than sanctioning bodies half the time.

[Covfefe]

Andre Ward is actually the linear light heavyweight champion. You can go two ways with it, even, and both bring you to the same place. Arguing you can forfeit an imaginary title by retiring, even if the retirement doesn't last a calendar year, is frankly uproarious.

Actually no it's not, it's the long held criteria for stripping someone of the title. You can't judge how long someone will be retiring for, and a fights between the number one and number two could happen at Any time after that.

So Floyd Mayweather abandoned the linear welterweight title and no one has held it since 2007? Is Juan Manuel Marquez still the actual lightweight linear champ? Never lost at the weight, never retired. If not, did Hatton forfeit the junior welterweight title when he moved up to 147 and fought Collazo?

There's no consistency to any of this nonsense. Fans aren't any better than sanctioning bodies half the time.

You clearly haven't got the first idea about what you are talking about.

[zorndeslammes]

Actually no it's not, it's the long held criteria for stripping someone of the title. You can't judge how long someone will be retiring for, and a fights between the number one and number two could happen at Any time after that.

So Floyd Mayweather abandoned the linear welterweight title and no one has held it since 2007? Is Juan Manuel Marquez still the actual lightweight linear champ? Never lost at the weight, never retired. If not, did Hatton forfeit the junior welterweight title when he moved up to 147 and fought Collazo?

There's no consistency to any of this nonsense. Fans aren't any better than sanctioning bodies half the time.

You clearly haven't got the first idea about what you are talking about.

Of course. Well, Tyson Fury said he was retiring too, so I guess he isn't the linear HW champ? Links if you need em.

[Covfefe]

So Floyd Mayweather abandoned the linear welterweight title and no one has held it since 2007? Is Juan Manuel Marquez still the actual lightweight linear champ? Never lost at the weight, never retired. If not, did Hatton forfeit the junior welterweight title when he moved up to 147 and fought Collazo?

There's no consistency to any of this nonsense. Fans aren't any better than sanctioning bodies half the time.

You clearly haven't got the first idea about what you are talking about.

Of course. Well, Tyson Fury said he was retiring too, so I guess he isn't the linear HW champ? Links if you need em.

Did he actually retire? Just because you don't understand the lineal title doesn't mean some of us don't, I can't believe you actually asked me if no-one had held it since Floyd Mayweather briefly retired in 2008.

[zorndeslammes]

You clearly haven't got the first idea about what you are talking about.

Of course. Well, Tyson Fury said he was retiring too, so I guess he isn't the linear HW champ? Links if you need em.

Did he actually retire? Just because you don't understand the lineal title doesn't mean some of us don't, I can't believe you actually asked me if no-one had held it since Floyd Mayweather briefly retired in 2008.

How do you rate "actually retiring"? Can you parse intent? If so, why are you too dumb to acknowledge Erdei's retirement being a transparent attempt to subvert his soon to be bankrupt promoter?

And Floyd Mayweather didn't fight for nearly two years!

[Covfefe]

Of course. Well, Tyson Fury said he was retiring too, so I guess he isn't the linear HW champ? Links if you need em.

Did he actually retire? Just because you don't understand the lineal title doesn't mean some of us don't, I can't believe you actually asked me if no-one had held it since Floyd Mayweather briefly retired in 2008.

How do you rate "actually retiring"? Can you parse intent? If so, why are you too dumb to acknowledge Erdei's retirement being a transparent attempt to subvert his soon to be bankrupt promoter?

And Floyd Mayweather didn't fight for nearly two years!

Yes, and the lineal title went to Mosley after defeating Margarito who then lost it to Mayweather again who held it till he retired. Again. Now it's Manny's.

If you read the thread I did acknowledge it seemed like he was waiting out a contract. But he did retire and gave up his titles. I don't believe Fury actually retired or gave up any titles. A subtle difference I know, but one even you can understand.

[zorndeslammes]

Yes, and the lineal title went to Mosley after defeating Margarito who then lost it to Mayweather again who held it till he retired. Again. Now it's Manny's.

When did Miguel Cotto become linear champ? By beating Shane Mosley? Funny how that's being retroactively given to him because I sure as hell don't recall anyone making that claim at the time except maybe Arum. That is, of course, unless you think Margarito/Cotto was for the linear title in spite of Margarito's performance with Williams.

A subtle difference I know, but one even surely you can understand.

You're claiming to be able to judge intent and thus have authority. Oddly, Fury is still linear champ to you after being considered incapable of boxing and claiming retirement following a period of time at least as long (likely to be much longer!) than Erdei's "retirement".

We can do this all day long. Is Roman Gonzalez no longer the flyweight linear champ? He hasn't ruled out a return at least as far as I can see, though he certainly isn't guaranteeing it either.

[Covfefe]

Who said Miguel Cotto was lineal champ?

[zorndeslammes]

Who said Miguel Cotto was lineal champ?

So how did Margarito obtain the belt? Either he won it by beating Cotto, Golden Johnson, or Kermit Cintron. By what rationale is Margarito #1 or #2 at the time? Better yet, where was the consensus to pass this title along to him?

edit: LOL Cyberboxingzone had him as linear champ! Well, I guess I should be convinced!

[Covfefe]

Who said Miguel Cotto was lineal champ?

So how did Margarito obtain the belt? Either he won it by beating Cotto, Golden Johnson, or Kermit Cintron. By what rationale is Margarito #1 or #2 at the time?

He became the number 1 after beating Cotto but the lineal title wasn't on the line against Cotto. A new lineage was started with Margarito-Mosley, at least that's the generally accepted line. So it went Mosley, Mayweather and not Manny has started a new one by beating Bradley.

As for Roman Gonzales, until we know his intentions he is still the man. If he confirms he is leavin the division for good he will give it up. Is this that hard?

Tyson Fury never retired. I never once claimed to be able to know people's intentions, this is getting very boring. You shouldn't need me to explain simple things to you.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Cotto/Mosley was before Cotto/Margarito.

[Covfefe]

Cotto/Mosley was before Cotto/Margarito.

Eh?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I mean, I find lineage to be archaic at this point but there is no way in hell to justify Margarito/Mosley as the start of lineage. I don't think he had won a Welterweight fight in years. Margarito/Cotto would be the starting point, with if's involved like anything modern lineal because it's all about opinion.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Cotto/Mosley was before Cotto/Margarito.

Eh?

Either you edited a typo or I misread it. I thought you wrote the lineage started with Cotto/Mosley. In any regard, as my second post goes into, it definitely can't be Margarito/Mosley. Either Margarito/Cotto or Shane/Floyd.

Edit: Cotto/Mosley might be it too.

[Covfefe]

I mean, I find lineage to be archaic at this point but there is no way in hell to justify Margarito/Mosley as the start of lineage. I don't think he had won a Welterweight fight in years. Margarito/Cotto would be the starting point, with if's involved like anything modern lineal because it's all about opinion.

They were one and two after Margarito beat Cotto. I could accept Cotto Margaritto as the start of a line but it doesn't change anything at this point. Where was Paul Williams during Cotto-Margarito? Had he moved up then? I think he had by the time of Margarito-Mosley.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I mean, I find lineage to be archaic at this point but there is no way in hell to justify Margarito/Mosley as the start of lineage. I don't think he had won a Welterweight fight in years. Margarito/Cotto would be the starting point, with if's involved like anything modern lineal because it's all about opinion.

They were one and two after Margarito beat Cotto. I could accept Cotto Margaritto as the start of a line but it doesn't change anything at this point. Where was Paul Williams during Cotto-Margarito? Had he moved up then? I think he had by the time of Margarito-Mosley.

Mosley was ranked #2 for beating Mayorga at 154 and losing to Cotto two years prior? Not sure where Pac was but that is not a strong advocate for the lineal title if Shane was ranked second.

[Covfefe]

I mean, I find lineage to be archaic at this point but there is no way in hell to justify Margarito/Mosley as the start of lineage. I don't think he had won a Welterweight fight in years. Margarito/Cotto would be the starting point, with if's involved like anything modern lineal because it's all about opinion.

They were one and two after Margarito beat Cotto. I could accept Cotto Margaritto as the start of a line but it doesn't change anything at this point. Where was Paul Williams during Cotto-Margarito? Had he moved up then? I think he had by the time of Margarito-Mosley.

Mosley was ranked #2 for beating Mayorga at 154 and losing to Cotto two years prior? Not sure where Pac was but that is not a strong advocate for the lineal title if Shane was ranked second.

I think Pac was lineal st LWW at this point after he moved back down to fight Hatton. He was ranked #3 by the ring but the #1 had just beaten the number #2. Not sure why it wasn't on for Cotto-Margaritto in hindsight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

They were one and two after Margarito beat Cotto. I could accept Cotto Margaritto as the start of a line but it doesn't change anything at this point. Where was Paul Williams during Cotto-Margarito? Had he moved up then? I think he had by the time of Margarito-Mosley.

Mosley was ranked #2 for beating Mayorga at 154 and losing to Cotto two years prior? Not sure where Pac was but that is not a strong advocate for the lineal title if Shane was ranked second.

I think Pac was lineal st LWW at this point after he moved back down to fight Hatton. He was ranked #3 by the ring but the #1 had just beaten the number #2. Not sure why it wasn't on for Cotto-Margaritto in hindsight.

It had to be, because I won a ton of money on Shane. Not so much that I was positive he would win, moreso because the odds were ridiculous and everyone thought he was a lamb being led to slaughter. Plus I had a lot of Pac/Dlh money to play with.

[boxing_rocks]

A lineal title is a notion invented by fans and having no strict/official rules attached to it. The only clear thing is how it is being passed. How it starts and how it ends is not universally accepted. The fact that there are so many discussions including this one proves just that.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

A lineal title is a notion invented by fans and having no strict/official rules attached to it. The only clear thing is how it is being passed. How it starts and how it ends is not universally accepted. The fact that there are so many discussions including this one proves just that.

It was started to track a line, pretty easy when there was one champion and even reasonable when there were only two. It's a clown act now. Strictly opinion on a group of champions that will likely never settle it in the ring. Doesn't bother me when fans cling to it, but I'm with you.

[Covfefe]

A lineal title is a notion invented by fans and having no strict/official rules attached to it. The only clear thing is how it is being passed. How it starts and how it ends is not universally accepted. The fact that there are so many discussions including this one proves just that.

There are generally accepted rules. If a fighter retires he gives up the title, a new lineage is started when the consensus one and two fight, a fighter gives up a title when he leaves a division for good, or a fighter loses a title in the ring. That's it.

[Covfefe]

A lineal title is a notion invented by fans and having no strict/official rules attached to it. The only clear thing is how it is being passed. How it starts and how it ends is not universally accepted. The fact that there are so many discussions including this one proves just that.

It was started to track a line, pretty easy when there was one champion and even reasonable when there were only two. It's a clown act now. Strictly opinion on a group of champions that will likely never settle it in the ring. Doesn't bother me when fans cling to it, but I'm with you.

I don't cling to it, but I don't like people labelling fighters who aren't lineal champions as such. Canelo and Golovkin are going to fight one day, and Canelo is going back to MW at some point in the future and he has beat the man who beat the man in an actual line going back to Hopkins beating Trinidad. I don't like seeing Golovkin fans trying to crown him when he hadn't won it and the line is alive.

[boxing_rocks]

A lineal title is a notion invented by fans and having no strict/official rules attached to it. The only clear thing is how it is being passed. How it starts and how it ends is not universally accepted. The fact that there are so many discussions including this one proves just that.

There are generally accepted rules. If a fighter retires he gives up the title, a new lineage is started when the consensus one and two fight, a fighter gives up a title when he leaves a division for good, or a fighter loses a title in the ring. That's it.

What if there is no consensus on 1 and 2 ? What if they don't fight ? Define "for good". What if he returns two years later ? One year later ? Three years later ? Who defines that number of years ? Similar question about "retired" has already been asked.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

A lineal title is a notion invented by fans and having no strict/official rules attached to it. The only clear thing is how it is being passed. How it starts and how it ends is not universally accepted. The fact that there are so many discussions including this one proves just that.

It was started to track a line, pretty easy when there was one champion and even reasonable when there were only two. It's a clown act now. Strictly opinion on a group of champions that will likely never settle it in the ring. Doesn't bother me when fans cling to it, but I'm with you.

I don't cling to it, but I don't like people labelling fighters who aren't lineal champions as such. Canelo and Golovkin are going to fight one day, and Canelo is going back to MW at some point in the future and he has beat the man who beat the man in an actual line going back to Hopkins beating Trinidad. I don't like seeing Golovkin fans trying to crown him when he hadn't won it and the line is alive.

I didn't say you do, even so that's your prerogative. Means nothing to me and I absolutely consider ggg the middleweight champion.

[zorndeslammes]

I mean, I find lineage to be archaic at this point but there is no way in hell to justify Margarito/Mosley as the start of lineage. I don't think he had won a Welterweight fight in years. Margarito/Cotto would be the starting point, with if's involved like anything modern lineal because it's all about opinion.

They were one and two after Margarito beat Cotto. I could accept Cotto Margaritto as the start of a line but it doesn't change anything at this point. Where was Paul Williams during Cotto-Margarito? Had he moved up then? I think he had by the time of Margarito-Mosley.

Paul Williams had just fought at welterweight and avenged his loss to Quintana. I don't think there was anything Margarito had done to rightfully push himself past Williams in any consensus manner prior to the Cotto fight. Margarito/Mosley as the start of the linearity is a total joke too: Mosley hadn't fought at welterweight in over a year, and that was a loss to Cotto.

Like others said: that this discussion is so open ended is evidence of the many failings of the "linear title" system. If Manny Pacquiao had been "linear champ" of a division still, would he have dropped the strap for a retirement literally no one will remember having happened in 18 months, much less 18 years? It is hilarious.