BoxRec

Tomasino wrote:

Crease wrote:My list:

1 Carlos Monzon (9.5 pts each)
1 Marvin Hagler (9.5 pts each)

(For me, it's a real 50/50 between both of them. And I've been thinking about it for weeks and I go back and forth on a daily basis.
Instead of giving out more pts than I'm allowed to, I'd be more comfortable splitting the difference between them)

3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Bob Fitzsimmons
5 Jake LaMotta
6 Bernard Hopkins
7 Harry Greb
8 Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
9 Charley Burley
10 Gennady Golovkin

- Clearly I don't rank Greb as highly as others do, but I just haven't seen or read enough of him to be rating him as highly as others (probably my fault)

Mr. Crease if you'd like I can send you my copy of Klomptons book on Greb, it's fantastic.

BoxBuzz wrote:Why has no one rated Wilt for his MW achievements?

Was he ever beaten in that division?

I think not.

Wilt was a Heavyweight and couldn't have made Cruiserweight if he chopped a leg off... If Ali didn't renege on the painstakingly negotiated contract Wilt would indeed be rated at Heavyweight... The Dog & Pony shows hyping the fight were all Ali was interested in... Not in actually facing such an incredible athlete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

Monzons reign one of the best ever? Golovkin #1. What the hell have some of you been smoking?

Monzons reign was typified by wins over shot or heavily faded smaller fighters fighting above their best weight and protected euro trash. When a real threat came along he ducked him until that threat (Valdez had been injured in a car accident, badly mangling his power hand, and had been thought to never fight again).


Come see me when Golovkin actually has a fight. In earlier eras he wouldnt even be considered a contender with the absolute shit level of his competition. Dont even get me started on his supposed 17 title defenses or whsaever ridiculous number his fans have now cooked up. You might as well give me a title defense every morning when i take a dump.

klompton wrote:Monzons reign one of the best ever? Golovkin #1. What the hell have some of you been smoking?

Monzons reign was typified by wins over shot or heavily faded smaller fighters fighting above their best weight and protected euro trash. When a real threat came along he ducked him until that threat (Valdez had been injured in a car accident, badly mangling his power hand, and had been thought to never fight again).


Come see me when Golovkin actually has a fight. In earlier eras he wouldnt even be considered a contender with the absolute poo level of his competition. Dont even get me started on his supposed 17 title defenses or whsaever ridiculous number his fans have now cooked up. You might as well give me a title defense every morning when i take a dump.

Let's see your top ten Klompton

klompton wrote:Monzons reign one of the best ever? Golovkin #1. What the hell have some of you been smoking?

Monzons reign was typified by wins over shot or heavily faded smaller fighters fighting above their best weight and protected euro trash. When a real threat came along he ducked him until that threat (Valdez had been injured in a car accident, badly mangling his power hand, and had been thought to never fight again).


Come see me when Golovkin actually has a fight. In earlier eras he wouldnt even be considered a contender with the absolute poo level of his competition. Dont even get me started on his supposed 17 title defenses or whsaever ridiculous number his fans have now cooked up. You might as well give me a title defense every morning when i take a dump.

You may be proven to be right on Golovkin, time will tell.

You are of course in error on Monzon, who would likely defeat Greb, and rise to another level doing so. And quiet your critical review all in one event. (It was his M.O. always top whatever the opponent brings....and he did it routinely and brilliantly, and mercilessly). Not a guy I'd want as a neighbor....but genius in his own rite)


As to Kalan's remark about Wilt, I can't see why the loss of a single leg, would diminish his potential as a MW all time great.

davie wrote:It's nice that we can put an end to it for ever with this poll....

Well no-one will ever be able to conclusively "put an end to it forever". Every boxing enthusiast is entitled to his own opinion regarding fighters from the past and great fights that we've seen.

But our games are just an indication of who should be / shouldn't be up there in the running for the top 10s. An indication rather than a statement.
Plus, it's always something nice and positive when your opinion is taken into account rather than dismissed when someone doesn't agree with one (as sometimes happens on this site)

klompton wrote:Monzons reign one of the best ever?
Monzons reign was typified by wins over shot or heavily faded smaller fighters fighting above their best weight and protected euro trash. When a real threat came along he ducked him until that threat (Valdez had been injured in a car accident, badly mangling his power hand, and had been thought to never fight again).

Wow, that's incredibly overly-critical of a true all-time great Middleweight. Monzon's Championship reign (1970-77) was one of the greatest and most dominant reigns of all time, in my opinion. Out of his 15 title fights, he won 12 of them by KO or TKO.

And how could you criticize him when you see the strength of his challengers? Could you accuse him of ducking anyone? I've heard people bring up Valdes, yet Monzon still beat him twice (despite being 4 years older and a week off his 37th birthday).

According to The Ring magazine's Middleweight rankings he beat challengers of substance.
(http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... ght--1970s)

Gratien Tonna - ranked 4th in 74, 2nd in 75.
Tony Licata - ranked 2nd in 73, 2nd in 74.
Tony Mundine - 2nd in 72, 1st in 73
Jean Claude Bouttier - ranked 4th in 71 & 72.
Emile Griffith - ranked 2nd in 70 & 71, 1st in 72.
Bennie Briscoe - ranked 6th in 71 - and never fell out of the top 10 for the rest of the decade.

No Mr Klompton, all things considered - I do think your analysis is somewhat overzealous, particularly if you compare his record to the rankings.
He was beating top guys, usually at the zenith of their ranking.
I would definitely be comfortable in stating that: Carlos Monzon fought the best out there of his time.

And if anyone cared to dispute that, I would ask them - who exactly could you accuse him of ducking?

klompton wrote:Golovkin #1. What the hell have some of you been smoking?
Come see me when Golovkin actually has a fight. In earlier eras he wouldnt even be considered a contender with the absolute poo level of his competition. Dont even get me started on his supposed 17 title defenses or whsaever ridiculous number his fans have now cooked up. You might as well give me a title defense every morning when i take a dump.

Golovkin's career is still unfolding. His biggest problem is getting fighters to man up and challenge him, but that is not his fault and I wouldn't exactly be critical of him either.
He seems to me to be doing his best in becoming the Undisputed Champion at Middleweight and he's been very vocal about fighting Billy Joe Saunders.

BoxBuzz wrote:

klompton wrote:Monzons reign one of the best ever? Golovkin #1. What the hell have some of you been smoking?

Monzons reign was typified by wins over shot or heavily faded smaller fighters fighting above their best weight and protected euro trash. When a real threat came along he ducked him until that threat (Valdez had been injured in a car accident, badly mangling his power hand, and had been thought to never fight again).


Come see me when Golovkin actually has a fight. In earlier eras he wouldnt even be considered a contender with the absolute poo level of his competition. Dont even get me started on his supposed 17 title defenses or whsaever ridiculous number his fans have now cooked up. You might as well give me a title defense every morning when i take a dump.

You may be proven to be right on Golovkin, time will tell.

You are of course in error on Monzon, who would likely defeat Greb, and rise to another level doing so. And quiet your critical review all in one event. (It was his M.O. always top whatever the opponent brings....and he did it routinely and brilliantly, and mercilessly). Not a guy I'd want as a neighbor....but genius in his own rite)


As to Kalan's remark about Wilt, I can't see why the loss of a single leg, would diminish his potential as a MW all time great.

Because he'd still be a Heavyweight ... and you'd still be a Lite weight BuzzBox

BTW... why is it that Golovkin has to prove himself after compiling the greatest KO record and greatest Title Fight success record in Middlweight History (18-0 with 18 KO wins) while never being decked or hurt in his career, and all the time chasing after the most likely challengers---such as Billy Joe Saunders, Daniel Jacobs, Canelo Alvarez, and Chris Eubank---who all have excellent records and good skills themselves but are afraid to fight GGG??? ... Robinson lost many Title Fights to guys who had spotty W/L records, poor skills, and couldn't box worth a crap... Somebody said SRR's record in Middleweight Title Fights is 10-6-1, which I think is a little padded, but still not that impressive for an ATG... Just not.

I don't see where Robinson would have ANY chance versus much bigger, stronger ATG Middleweights such as Bernard Hopkins, Carlos Monszon, Gennady Golovkin, Roy Jones, and James Toney -- only ONE of whom ever lost a single Middleweight Title Fight (Hopkins lost 3 but won 21).

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

klompton wrote:Monzons reign one of the best ever? Golovkin #1. What the hell have some of you been smoking?

Monzons reign was typified by wins over shot or heavily faded smaller fighters fighting above their best weight and protected euro trash. When a real threat came along he ducked him until that threat (Valdez had been injured in a car accident, badly mangling his power hand, and had been thought to never fight again).


Come see me when Golovkin actually has a fight. In earlier eras he wouldnt even be considered a contender with the absolute poo level of his competition. Dont even get me started on his supposed 17 title defenses or whsaever ridiculous number his fans have now cooked up. You might as well give me a title defense every morning when i take a dump.

You may be proven to be right on Golovkin, time will tell.

You are of course in error on Monzon, who would likely defeat Greb, and rise to another level doing so. And quiet your critical review all in one event. (It was his M.O. always top whatever the opponent brings....and he did it routinely and brilliantly, and mercilessly). Not a guy I'd want as a neighbor....but genius in his own rite)


As to Kalan's remark about Wilt, I can't see why the loss of a single leg, would diminish his potential as a MW all time great.

Because he'd still be a Heavyweight ... and you'd still be a Lite weight BuzzBox

BTW... why is it that Golovkin has to prove himself after compiling the greatest KO record and greatest Title Fight success record in Middlweight History (18-0 with 18 KO wins) while never being decked or hurt in his career, and all the time chasing after the most likely challengers---such as Billy Joe Saunders, Daniel Jacobs, Canelo Alvarez, and Chris Eubank---who all have excellent records and good skills themselves but are afraid to fight GGG??? ... Robinson lost many Title Fights to guys who had spotty W/L records, poor skills, and couldn't box worth a crap... Somebody said SRR's record in Middleweight Title Fights is 10-6-1, which I think is a little padded, but still not that impressive for an ATG... Just not.

I don't see where Robinson would have ANY chance versus much bigger, stronger ATG Middleweights such as Bernard Hopkins, Carlos Monszon, Gennady Golovkin, Roy Jones, and James Toney -- only ONE of whom ever lost a single Middleweight Title Fight (Hopkins lost 3 but won 21).

James Toney couldn't beat Tiberi, but he's going to beat SRR. MWAHAHAHA! World class trolling.

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

klompton wrote:Monzons reign one of the best ever? Golovkin #1. What the hell have some of you been smoking?

Monzons reign was typified by wins over shot or heavily faded smaller fighters fighting above their best weight and protected euro trash. When a real threat came along he ducked him until that threat (Valdez had been injured in a car accident, badly mangling his power hand, and had been thought to never fight again).


Come see me when Golovkin actually has a fight. In earlier eras he wouldnt even be considered a contender with the absolute poo level of his competition. Dont even get me started on his supposed 17 title defenses or whsaever ridiculous number his fans have now cooked up. You might as well give me a title defense every morning when i take a dump.

You may be proven to be right on Golovkin, time will tell.

You are of course in error on Monzon, who would likely defeat Greb, and rise to another level doing so. And quiet your critical review all in one event. (It was his M.O. always top whatever the opponent brings....and he did it routinely and brilliantly, and mercilessly). Not a guy I'd want as a neighbor....but genius in his own rite)


As to Kalan's remark about Wilt, I can't see why the loss of a single leg, would diminish his potential as a MW all time great.

Because he'd still be a Heavyweight ... and you'd still be a Lite weight BuzzBox

BTW... why is it that Golovkin has to prove himself after compiling the greatest KO record and greatest Title Fight success record in Middlweight History (18-0 with 18 KO wins) while never being decked or hurt in his career, and all the time chasing after the most likely challengers---such as Billy Joe Saunders, Daniel Jacobs, Canelo Alvarez, and Chris Eubank---who all have excellent records and good skills themselves but are afraid to fight GGG??? ... Robinson lost many Title Fights to guys who had spotty W/L records, poor skills, and couldn't box worth a crap... Somebody said SRR's record in Middleweight Title Fights is 10-6-1, which I think is a little padded, but still not that impressive for an ATG... Just not.

I don't see where Robinson would have ANY chance versus much bigger, stronger ATG Middleweights such as Bernard Hopkins, Carlos Monszon, Gennady Golovkin, Roy Jones, and James Toney -- only ONE of whom ever lost a single Middleweight Title Fight (Hopkins lost 3 but won 21).

Golovkin may be well on his way.....

do you think if he retired today, his legacy is set?

1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Ray Robinson
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Harry Greb
6. Tommy Ryan
7. Mickey Walker
8. Billy Papke
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. GGG

in three days 17 of us wrote and now we wait, thirty days seems long

keithmoonhangover wrote:1. Stanley Ketchel

Interesting choice

Keko wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:1. Stanley Ketchel

Interesting choice

Nat Fleischer thought he was the best ever. I agree.

It's interesting how he was ranked through the years by Ring Magazine. The boxers didn't change, but the people doing the ratings did.

March 1975_____________May 1994_____________January 2001______________2004 Ring Yearbook

1.Stanley Ketchel________1.Sugar Ray Robinson____1.Harry Greb______________1.Harry Greb
2.Sugar Ray Robinson_____2.Carlos Monzon________2.Sugar Ray Robinson_______2.Sugar Ray Robinson
3.Harry Greb____________3.Harry Greb___________ 3.Carlos Monzon___________3.Carlos Monzon
4.Mickey Walker_________4.Stanley Ketchel_______4.Marvin Hagler____________4.Marvin Hagler
5.Billy Papke____________5.Marvin Hagler_________5.Jake LaMotta____________5.Jake LaMotta
6.Tony Zale__________________________________6.Charley Burley____________6.Charley Burley
7.Dick Tiger__________________________________7.Tiger Flowers____________7.Tiger Flowers
8.Tommy Ryan________________________________8.Stanley Ketchel__________8.Stanley Ketchel
9.Emile Griffith________________________________9.Mickey Walker___________ 9.Mickey Walker
10.Les Darcy_________________________________10.Billy Conn______________10.Billy Conn
____________________________________________11.Marcel Cerdan__________11.Marcel Cerdan
____________________________________________12.Tony Zale______________12.Tony Zale
____________________________________________13.Emile Griffith____________13.Emile Griffith
____________________________________________14.Dick Tiger______________14.Dick Tiger
____________________________________________15.Gene Fullmer____________15.Gene Fullmer
____________________________________________16.Bernard Hopkins__________16.Rodrigo Valdez
____________________________________________17.Rodrigo Valdez__________17.Bob Fitzsimmons
____________________________________________18.Bob Fitzsimmons_________18.Tommy Ryan
____________________________________________19.Tommy Ryan____________19.Joey Giardello
____________________________________________20.Joey Giardello___________20.Nonpareil Jack Dempsey

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Keko wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:1. Stanley Ketchel

Interesting choice

Nat Fleischer thought he was the best ever. I agree.

It's interesting how he was ranked through the years by Ring Magazine. The boxers didn't change, but the people doing the ratings did.

March 1975_____________May 1994_____________January 2001______________2004 Ring Yearbook

1.Stanley Ketchel________1.Sugar Ray Robinson____1.Harry Greb______________1.Harry Greb
2.Sugar Ray Robinson_____2.Carlos Monzon________2.Sugar Ray Robinson_______2.Sugar Ray Robinson
3.Harry Greb____________3.Harry Greb___________ 3.Carlos Monzon___________3.Carlos Monzon
4.Mickey Walker_________4.Stanley Ketchel_______4.Marvin Hagler____________4.Marvin Hagler
5.Billy Papke____________5.Marvin Hagler_________5.Jake LaMotta____________5.Jake LaMotta
6.Tony Zale__________________________________6.Charley Burley____________6.Charley Burley
7.Dick Tiger__________________________________7.Tiger Flowers____________7.Tiger Flowers
8.Tommy Ryan________________________________8.Stanley Ketchel__________8.Stanley Ketchel
9.Emile Griffith________________________________9.Mickey Walker___________ 9.Mickey Walker
10.Les Darcy_________________________________10.Billy Conn______________10.Billy Conn
____________________________________________11.Marcel Cerdan__________11.Marcel Cerdan
____________________________________________12.Tony Zale______________12.Tony Zale
____________________________________________13.Emile Griffith____________13.Emile Griffith
____________________________________________14.Dick Tiger______________14.Dick Tiger
____________________________________________15.Gene Fullmer____________15.Gene Fullmer
____________________________________________16.Bernard Hopkins__________16.Rodrigo Valdez
____________________________________________17.Rodrigo Valdez__________17.Bob Fitzsimmons
____________________________________________18.Bob Fitzsimmons_________18.Tommy Ryan
____________________________________________19.Tommy Ryan____________19.Joey Giardello
____________________________________________20.Joey Giardello___________20.Nonpareil Jack Dempsey

Back in the 60s, and before, Buster Keaton's 1926 film The General always appeared on the "top ten movies of all time" lists - in the 70s it started to fall off - by the 80s critics stopped mentioning the film altogether - now I suspect few people under 40 know the film existed. - Boxing News has Ketchel down to five; Fight City 6th; Ranker (a click poll) has him down at nine; SI 6th; The Pugil List 5th - as you said the boxers haven't changed but as years pass he will never be number one again.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

You may be proven to be right on Golovkin, time will tell.

You are of course in error on Monzon, who would likely defeat Greb, and rise to another level doing so. And quiet your critical review all in one event. (It was his M.O. always top whatever the opponent brings....and he did it routinely and brilliantly, and mercilessly). Not a guy I'd want as a neighbor....but genius in his own rite)


As to Kalan's remark about Wilt, I can't see why the loss of a single leg, would diminish his potential as a MW all time great.

Because he'd still be a Heavyweight ... and you'd still be a Lite weight BuzzBox

BTW... why is it that Golovkin has to prove himself after compiling the greatest KO record and greatest Title Fight success record in Middlweight History (18-0 with 18 KO wins) while never being decked or hurt in his career, and all the time chasing after the most likely challengers---such as Billy Joe Saunders, Daniel Jacobs, Canelo Alvarez, and Chris Eubank---who all have excellent records and good skills themselves but are afraid to fight GGG??? ... Robinson lost many Title Fights to guys who had spotty W/L records, poor skills, and couldn't box worth a crap... Somebody said SRR's record in Middleweight Title Fights is 10-6-1, which I think is a little padded, but still not that impressive for an ATG... Just not.

I don't see where Robinson would have ANY chance versus much bigger, stronger ATG Middleweights such as Bernard Hopkins, Carlos Monszon, Gennady Golovkin, Roy Jones, and James Toney -- only ONE of whom ever lost a single Middleweight Title Fight (Hopkins lost 3 but won 21).

Golovkin may be well on his way.....

do you think if he retired today, his legacy is set?

Possibly not...but only because of generational bias... GGG would certainly be remembered and one of the greatest boxer-punchers if he retired undefeated right now---since nobody has come close to beating him or tying him... Hopkins was the most successful in Middleweight Title defenses, but suffered 3 defeats at Middleweight, including 2 to the wide open, poorly skilled, mentally challenged, and easily knocked out Jermain Taylor...

Monzon had those 3 losses and 9 draws before closing his career with 30 straight victories -- including 15 in World Middleweight Title Fights. But he didn't run a clean slate for his whole career.

Robinson looked good. He had the picture perfect physique and facial construction of a boxer. He was charismatic like John F. Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, or Elvis Presley. He was electric. But he certainly was hittable... outboxable... and deckable by Welterweights and Middleweights... as compared to Carlos Monzon, Roy Jones, Bernard Hopkins, Gennady Golovkin, and James Toney -- only 1 of whom ever suffered a defeat in a Middleweight Title Fight... They would have all beat SRR handily.

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:

Kalan wrote:
Because he'd still be a Heavyweight ... and you'd still be a Lite weight BuzzBox

BTW... why is it that Golovkin has to prove himself after compiling the greatest KO record and greatest Title Fight success record in Middlweight History (18-0 with 18 KO wins) while never being decked or hurt in his career, and all the time chasing after the most likely challengers---such as Billy Joe Saunders, Daniel Jacobs, Canelo Alvarez, and Chris Eubank---who all have excellent records and good skills themselves but are afraid to fight GGG??? ... Robinson lost many Title Fights to guys who had spotty W/L records, poor skills, and couldn't box worth a crap... Somebody said SRR's record in Middleweight Title Fights is 10-6-1, which I think is a little padded, but still not that impressive for an ATG... Just not.

I don't see where Robinson would have ANY chance versus much bigger, stronger ATG Middleweights such as Bernard Hopkins, Carlos Monszon, Gennady Golovkin, Roy Jones, and James Toney -- only ONE of whom ever lost a single Middleweight Title Fight (Hopkins lost 3 but won 21).

Golovkin may be well on his way.....

do you think if he retired today, his legacy is set?

Possibly not...but only because of generational bias... GGG would certainly be remembered and one of the greatest boxer-punchers if he retired undefeated right now---since nobody has come close to beating him or tying him... Hopkins was the most successful in Middleweight Title defenses, but suffered 3 defeats at Middleweight, including 2 to the wide open, poorly skilled, mentally challenged, and easily knocked out Jermain Taylor...

Monzon had those 3 losses and 9 draws before closing his career with 30 straight victories -- including 15 in World Middleweight Title Fights. But he didn't run a clean slate for his whole career.

Robinson looked good. He had the picture perfect physique and facial construction of a boxer. He was charismatic like John F. Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, or Elvis Presley. He was electric. But he certainly was hittable... outboxable... and deckable by Welterweights and Middleweights... as compared to Carlos Monzon, Roy Jones, Bernard Hopkins, Gennady Golovkin, and James Toney -- only 1 of whom ever suffered a defeat in a Middleweight Title Fight... They would have all beat SRR handily.

Kalan. How does Toney beat Robinson when he can't beat Tiberi?

I think Hopkins first fight was a loss......probably can't be held against him except in a very eccentric universe.

As far as Tiberi....not sure he'd have that sort of run in a second go. Bad day at the office.....not that you can dismiss it, but probably isn't solid evidence toward your point.

I think James would give anyone a run.........and of course as Kalan will be quick to point out, Robinson had a few bad days at that same office.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Kalan wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:
Golovkin may be well on his way.....

do you think if he retired today, his legacy is set?

Possibly not...but only because of generational bias... GGG would certainly be remembered and one of the greatest boxer-punchers if he retired undefeated right now---since nobody has come close to beating him or tying him... Hopkins was the most successful in Middleweight Title defenses, but suffered 3 defeats at Middleweight, including 2 to the wide open, poorly skilled, mentally challenged, and easily knocked out Jermain Taylor...

Monzon had those 3 losses and 9 draws before closing his career with 30 straight victories -- including 15 in World Middleweight Title Fights. But he didn't run a clean slate for his whole career.

Robinson looked good. He had the picture perfect physique and facial construction of a boxer. He was charismatic like John F. Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, or Elvis Presley. He was electric. But he certainly was hittable... outboxable... and deckable by Welterweights and Middleweights... as compared to Carlos Monzon, Roy Jones, Bernard Hopkins, Gennady Golovkin, and James Toney -- only 1 of whom ever suffered a defeat in a Middleweight Title Fight... They would have all beat SRR handily.

Kalan. How does Toney beat Robinson when he can't beat Tiberi?

The record book says Toney beat Tiberi.. JT broke his ankle in the 1st round and still won somehow.. He ended Tiberi's career.. Robinson lost to Randy Turpin, Ralph Jones, Carmen Basilio, Ralph Jones, and Joey Maxim... Do you see any of them beating Toney??? He destroys all those crude swingers and flailers without even trying... Maxim could box a little bit, but wasn't in the same class as Toney as a craftsman.. And Joey was so slow and punchless he'd be a 10-1 underdog versus Toney.. Maxim had a 19% KO ratio.. He couldn't beat Jirov.

I should say Jake LaMotta instead of Ralph Jones twice... He beat SRR too.. LaMotta was so hittable he would be a sitting duck for Toney and gone in 5.

Not to mention Carmen Basilio... He gave up size, height, weight, reach, strength, speed, and skill, and still beat Robinson.. He'd be gone quickly vs Toney

Kalan wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Kalan wrote:
Possibly not...but only because of generational bias... GGG would certainly be remembered and one of the greatest boxer-punchers if he retired undefeated right now---since nobody has come close to beating him or tying him... Hopkins was the most successful in Middleweight Title defenses, but suffered 3 defeats at Middleweight, including 2 to the wide open, poorly skilled, mentally challenged, and easily knocked out Jermain Taylor...

Monzon had those 3 losses and 9 draws before closing his career with 30 straight victories -- including 15 in World Middleweight Title Fights. But he didn't run a clean slate for his whole career.

Robinson looked good. He had the picture perfect physique and facial construction of a boxer. He was charismatic like John F. Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, or Elvis Presley. He was electric. But he certainly was hittable... outboxable... and deckable by Welterweights and Middleweights... as compared to Carlos Monzon, Roy Jones, Bernard Hopkins, Gennady Golovkin, and James Toney -- only 1 of whom ever suffered a defeat in a Middleweight Title Fight... They would have all beat SRR handily.

Kalan. How does Toney beat Robinson when he can't beat Tiberi?

The record book says Toney beat Tiberi.. JT broke his ankle in the 1st round and still won somehow.. He ended Tiberi's career.. Robinson lost to Randy Turpin, Ralph Jones, Carmen Basilio, Ralph Jones, and Joey Maxim... Do you see any of them beating Toney??? He destroys all those crude swingers and flailers without even trying... Maxim could box a little bit, but wasn't in the same class as Toney as a craftsman.. And Joey was so slow and punchless he'd be a 10-1 underdog versus Toney.. Maxim had a 19% KO ratio.. He couldn't beat Jirov.

The record book, as you know, is wrong. Do I see any of those fighters beating Toney? At middleweight, Toney was beaten my Tiberi, ran very close by Reggie Johnson and lost almost every round to Nunn before the stoppage.

A simple question for you. Just give me a yes or no answer.

Did Robinson ever lose to anyone as poor as Tiberi?

Keko wrote:in three days 17 of us wrote and now we wait, thirty days seems long

It's the name of the game, sir. Giving everyone the chance and time to have their say.

Crease wrote:

Keko wrote:in three days 17 of us wrote and now we wait, thirty days seems long

It's the name of the game, sir. Giving everyone the chance and time to have their say.

Well said mate. Some of us need time to think/procrastinate.

keithmoonhangover wrote:10 votes

Thank you for your contribution, sir.

And so another runner enters the race, Billy Papke. Monzon makes up ground on Greb and Robinson is right behind Hagler.

Crease wrote:Current Scoreboard: (18 Members have voted)

1st - 153 pts Harry Greb
2nd - 141 pts Carlos Monzon
3rd - 130 pts Marvin Hagler
4th - 129 pts Sugar Ray Robinson
5th - 82 pts Stanley Ketchel
6th - 52 pts Mickey Walker
7th - 48 pts Bernard Hopkins
8th - 38 pts Bob Fitzsimmons
9th - 27 pts Sam Langford
Tied 10th - 22 pts Roy Jones Jr
Tied 10th - 22 pts Jake LaMotta

Tied 12th - 18 pts Tiger Flowers
Tied 12th - 18 pts Charley Burley
Tied 12th - 18 pts Gennady Golovkin
15th - 17 pts Dick Tiger
16th - 13 pts Mike Gibbons
Tied 17th - 12 pts James Toney
Tied 17th - 12 pts Nino Benvenuti
Tied 17th - 12 pts Tommy Ryan

Tied 20th - 8 pts Tony Zale
Tied 20th - 8 pts Marcel Cerdan
22nd - 5 pts Freddie Steele
Tied 23rd - 3 pts Kid McCoy
Tied 23rd - 3 pts Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Tied 23rd - 3 pts Billy Papke
Tied 26th - 1 pts Mike McCallum
Tied 26th - 1 pts Gene Fullmer
Tied 26th - 1 pts Holman Williams