Remember Lewis Ducked Chris Byrd

[GPTM1403]

Only Bowe will no for certain if he was scared of Lewis. Deep down in his subconcious, he may have been. Lewis hurt Bowe badly in the Olympics, so who knows how Bowe felt about it. He did duck Lewis in a most public fashion and that's why fans are still talking about it.

Its an interesting one, it seemed it was meant to come across as Bowe trying to get back at Lewis by denying him a shot at the legitimate titles but how it comes across is Bowe believed the only way he could pay Lewis back was to avoid him, which suggests they weren't exactly confident of winning. Considering how well Lewis responded to being in a dangerous place (e.g. Ruddock and Golota) I'd suspect Lewis would have gone after Bowe early.

On topic the fact most of us don't remember Lewis "ducking" Byrd shows how little difference it made, as you said he was on retirement fund building by that stage.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Lol, you guys are in your own little fantasy world. I'm not anti-lewis. It's just complete fiction to say that a fight between Lennox and vitali was highly anticipated. Not in the states it wasn't, not at all. Boxing fans recognized it was better than the original fight. That's it

The fight between Lewis and Klitschko was to take place in December 2003, and Klitschko signed for a tune-up fight on 21 June 2003 as part of the undercard of Lewis' fight with Kirk Johnson for the IBO title, as the WBC would not sanction the fight for their title. Johnson, however, pulled out of the fight due to injury and Klitschko, due to his being in training for a fight on the same day as Lewis, took the fight on short notice. Immediately after he accepted, the WBC elected to sanction the fight as a title match and Lewis' The Ring title was also up for grabs in addition to his lineal title. The gate was US $2,523,384 from an attendance of 15,939 at the Staples Center in California. The fight aired live on HBO's World Championship Boxing and was watched in 4.6 million homes.

The above would suggest the only fantasists are Americans that think a fight is only worthwhile if enough of them are interested in it. Add to that the fact that the ONLY Lewis fights the Americans were EVER interested in were those in which they believed their desperate hopes of him being defeated would come to fruition, and it is easy to see why their opinions on the matter are not worth much.

More drivel, Lewis was a big deal, Boxing was much bigger here then and LA is a fight town. A chance to see an ATG Heavyweight champion for the first time sold the majority of those tickets before kirk pulled out. I'm sure vitali replacing him boosted last minute sales because it was obviously a better fight, but his highly anticipated fights here were on PPV.....Holyfield x2, Tyson, Grant, Tua and Rahman 2. None of those fights would ever be made on 2 weeks notice. Too much lost money. If Rahman hadn't upset Lennox, he and Wlad would have been a monster fight here.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

[jbizzle20]

The only drivel is coming from you. The year Rahman upset Lewis ( 2001 ), V.K. was fighting Norris and Purrity in GERMANY. Lewis avenged the defeat in spectacular style in November of that year.

The year Lennox earned his biggest payday v Tyson, Vitali was still fighting Bean, and Donald in Germany. However the Donald fight earned him the right to fight for the WBA title, and must have had him near the top of the WBC rankings, hence they sanctioned the fight for their strap. A fight between them could well have taken place in Europe, there was no NEED for them to square off in the US.

I think we all know the biggest fight venues and revenue earners are in Vegas, and not the Staples Centre, and I would bet good money had the fight taken place on the agreed December date, Vegas is where it would have taken place purely for financial reasons. Hence the undercard fight in the US, so the public would see a fit Vitali knock over some stiff, while an unconditioned Lewis dispenses with the very ordinary Johnson.

It is beyond ridiculous to claim a fight between a 6' 7" guy, who in 33 fights had only been taken the distance once, plus had pulled out of a fight he was comfortably winning due to injury would generate no interest, and not be anticipated, particularly if the US public had seen him look far better than LL on the same fight card.

As for your examples of him fighting on PPV, as I said these were only successful because the majority of Americans desperately wanted to see Lewis lose, and despite the best efforts of the American judge ( enough to make both Jones Jr, and Foreman apologise and say they were ashamed to be Americans involved in the sport ) he didn't lose those fights.

Vitali was #1 in the WBC rankings when he met Lewis. Btw, I forgot that Lewis sued King. What I never understood was why King wanted to pull Tyson away from a rematch? Did he want Lewis to fight Ruiz, instead?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

[Ambling Alp II]

The only drivel is coming from you. The year Rahman upset Lewis ( 2001 ), V.K. was fighting Norris and Purrity in GERMANY. Lewis avenged the defeat in spectacular style in November of that year.

The year Lennox earned his biggest payday v Tyson, Vitali was still fighting Bean, and Donald in Germany. However the Donald fight earned him the right to fight for the WBA title, and must have had him near the top of the WBC rankings, hence they sanctioned the fight for their strap. A fight between them could well have taken place in Europe, there was no NEED for them to square off in the US.

I think we all know the biggest fight venues and revenue earners are in Vegas, and not the Staples Centre, and I would bet good money had the fight taken place on the agreed December date, Vegas is where it would have taken place purely for financial reasons. Hence the undercard fight in the US, so the public would see a fit Vitali knock over some stiff, while an unconditioned Lewis dispenses with the very ordinary Johnson.

It is beyond ridiculous to claim a fight between a 6' 7" guy, who in 33 fights had only been taken the distance once, plus had pulled out of a fight he was comfortably winning due to injury would generate no interest, and not be anticipated, particularly if the US public had seen him look far better than LL on the same fight card.

As for your examples of him fighting on PPV, as I said these were only successful because the majority of Americans desperately wanted to see Lewis lose, and despite the best efforts of the American judge ( enough to make both Jones Jr, and Foreman apologise and say they were ashamed to be Americans involved in the sport ) he didn't lose those fights.

It was not anticipated because people knew that V. Klitschko was not that good. Being tall or having a pretty record against stiffs doesn't mean that you are good. He was painfully slow, was easy to hit. He also failed miserably in his only fight against a decent opponent (Byrd).
People weren't screaming for V. Klitschko-Lewis fight. It's revisionist history to say there was a lot of interest.

[SteveO]

Take Klitchko's record between 1996 and 2003, compare it with the top 10 American Heavies then come back and tell me all he fought were stiffs.

If you believe tearing a rotator cuff in his shoulder ( in a fight he was comfortably winning by 5, 7, and 5 points respectively on the cards ) causing him to pull out is failing miserably, you obviously have an agenda.

Incidentally, although the Byrd fight was in Germany 2 of the judges who had Klitchko winning were American.

That sums it all up nicely

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Take Klitchko's record between 1996 and 2003, compare it with the top 10 American Heavies then come back and tell me all he fought were stiffs.

If you believe tearing a rotator cuff in his shoulder ( in a fight he was comfortably winning by 5, 7, and 5 points respectively on the cards ) causing him to pull out is failing miserably, you obviously have an agenda.

Incidentally, although the Byrd fight was in Germany 2 of the judges who had Klitchko winning were American.

That sums it all up nicely

Lol, that sums up why a late replacement fight was highly anticipated? I don't even think vitali/Boswell was going to be televised here.

[jbizzle20]

The only drivel is coming from you. The year Rahman upset Lewis ( 2001 ), V.K. was fighting Norris and Purrity in GERMANY. Lewis avenged the defeat in spectacular style in November of that year.

The year Lennox earned his biggest payday v Tyson, Vitali was still fighting Bean, and Donald in Germany. However the Donald fight earned him the right to fight for the WBA title, and must have had him near the top of the WBC rankings, hence they sanctioned the fight for their strap. A fight between them could well have taken place in Europe, there was no NEED for them to square off in the US.

I think we all know the biggest fight venues and revenue earners are in Vegas, and not the Staples Centre, and I would bet good money had the fight taken place on the agreed December date, Vegas is where it would have taken place purely for financial reasons. Hence the undercard fight in the US, so the public would see a fit Vitali knock over some stiff, while an unconditioned Lewis dispenses with the very ordinary Johnson.

It is beyond ridiculous to claim a fight between a 6' 7" guy, who in 33 fights had only been taken the distance once, plus had pulled out of a fight he was comfortably winning due to injury would generate no interest, and not be anticipated, particularly if the US public had seen him look far better than LL on the same fight card.

As for your examples of him fighting on PPV, as I said these were only successful because the majority of Americans desperately wanted to see Lewis lose, and despite the best efforts of the American judge ( enough to make both Jones Jr, and Foreman apologise and say they were ashamed to be Americans involved in the sport ) he didn't lose those fights.

Vitali was #1 in the WBC rankings when he met Lewis. Btw, I forgot that Lewis sued King. What I never understood was why King wanted to pull Tyson away from a rematch? Did he want Lewis to fight Ruiz, instead?

I honestly have no idea, save that he always wanted to get his filthy claws on Lewis's titles so that he could rip off dumbass American heavyweights. Lewis and his team were far to shrewd to let that scumbag anywhere near the money.

The one time he did, Lewis returned the favor with this epic shot.

[Keko]

When he lost, then he had to be a rematch when he won then no rematch

[BoxBuzz]

[
Despite the ramblings of insignificant Americans .

Whoa buddy...we are not insignificant...we are "UUUGE"

[Keko]

When he lost, then he had to be a rematch when he won then no rematch

I could never be 100% sure ( though I have no doubt there will be plenty of self appointed " experts " on this board on these matters ) but my guess is it was down to " contracts "

i.e. Lewis more than likely had a return match clause in the Rahman contract, whereas Klitchko probably didn't.

This might explain the following.

On 21 April 2001, Lewis was knocked out by 15-to-1 underdog Hasim Rahman in a bout in South Africa. Before the bout, Lewis had a role in the film Ocean's Eleven in which he "boxed" against Wladimir Klitschko.

Lewis immediately sought a rematch with the new champion; however, Rahman, now being promoted by Don King, tried to secure another opponent for his inaugural title defence. Lewis took Rahman to court to honour the rematch clause in their contract. Rahman was ordered to honour the clause and give Lewis a rematch in his first title defence.

For Rahman sure but for McCall i think no.

It is true that he had such a contract but would always find some excuse from "experts" .
With Vitaly did not have a contract pack is expected rematch after he said this, and personally confirmed.

[Keko]

I could never be 100% sure ( though I have no doubt there will be plenty of self appointed " experts " on this board on these matters ) but my guess is it was down to " contracts "

i.e. Lewis more than likely had a return match clause in the Rahman contract, whereas Klitchko probably didn't.

This might explain the following.

For Rahman sure but for McCall i think no.

It is true that he had such a contract but would always find some excuse from "experts" .
With Vitaly did not have a contract pack is expected rematch after he said this, and personally confirmed.

The complaints from Lewis haters, or Klitchko fanboys would have some relevance had Lennox flat out ducked Vitali and fought someone else. He didn't. The man walked away from boxing, in all probability to please both his mother and his wife. It is moronic to think fighters are not permitted to retire or change their way of making money, the same as the rest of us.

Lewis fanboys or normally will always have excuses.

Important are only the facts and what was said after the fight.
They were both big boxing champ but believes none of them is someone whose order I was a fan.

[Keko]

The complaints from Lewis haters, or Klitchko fanboys would have some relevance had Lennox flat out ducked Vitali and fought someone else. He didn't. The man walked away from boxing, in all probability to please both his mother and his wife. It is moronic to think fighters are not permitted to retire or change their way of making money, the same as the rest of us.

Lewis fanboys or normally will always have excuses.

Important are only the facts and what was said after the fight.
They were both big boxing champ but believes none of them is someone whose order I was a fan.

Yep, and the FACT is Lewis retired. He DID NOT carry on boxing. Everything else is merely opinion, and seeing as Lewis is worth well over a $100 million, and the people criticising him haven't got a pot to piss in I doubt if he loses much sleep over it.

He is a man of the right to retire but realistically it is not going to like that, is not he fought more with Vitaly I think.

Lewis has always been intelligent and he knew best to assess the situation.

[Keko]

Yep, and the FACT is Lewis retired. He DID NOT carry on boxing. Everything else is merely opinion, and seeing as Lewis is worth well over a $100 million, and the people criticising him haven't got a pot to piss in I doubt if he loses much sleep over it.

He is a man of the right to retire but realistically it is not going to like that, is not he fought more with Vitaly I think.

Lewis has always been intelligent and he knew best to assess the situation.

That is your " opinion " it has no relevance to the FACT he retired from boxing.

He did not mention retirement before this fight. Well decided later.
He was far from good days and left on time.
I'm realistic and just telling the facts.

[Ambling Alp II]

The only drivel is coming from you. The year Rahman upset Lewis ( 2001 ), V.K. was fighting Norris and Purrity in GERMANY. Lewis avenged the defeat in spectacular style in November of that year.

The year Lennox earned his biggest payday v Tyson, Vitali was still fighting Bean, and Donald in Germany. However the Donald fight earned him the right to fight for the WBA title, and must have had him near the top of the WBC rankings, hence they sanctioned the fight for their strap. A fight between them could well have taken place in Europe, there was no NEED for them to square off in the US.

I think we all know the biggest fight venues and revenue earners are in Vegas, and not the Staples Centre, and I would bet good money had the fight taken place on the agreed December date, Vegas is where it would have taken place purely for financial reasons. Hence the undercard fight in the US, so the public would see a fit Vitali knock over some stiff, while an unconditioned Lewis dispenses with the very ordinary Johnson.

It is beyond ridiculous to claim a fight between a 6' 7" guy, who in 33 fights had only been taken the distance once, plus had pulled out of a fight he was comfortably winning due to injury would generate no interest, and not be anticipated, particularly if the US public had seen him look far better than LL on the same fight card.

As for your examples of him fighting on PPV, as I said these were only successful because the majority of Americans desperately wanted to see Lewis lose, and despite the best efforts of the American judge ( enough to make both Jones Jr, and Foreman apologise and say they were ashamed to be Americans involved in the sport ) he didn't lose those fights.

It was not anticipated because people knew that V. Klitschko was not that good. Being tall or having a pretty record against stiffs doesn't mean that you are good. He was painfully slow, was easy to hit. He also failed miserably in his only fight against a decent opponent (Byrd).
People weren't screaming for V. Klitschko-Lewis fight. It's revisionist history to say there was a lot of interest.

Take Klitchko's record between 1996 and 2003, compare it with the top 10 American Heavies then come back and tell me all he fought were stiffs.

If you believe tearing a rotator cuff in his shoulder ( in a fight he was comfortably winning by 5, 7, and 5 points respectively on the cards ) causing him to pull out is failing miserably, you obviously have an agenda.

Incidentally, although the Byrd fight was in Germany 2 of the judges who had Klitchko winning were American.

He fought stiffs. There many other heavyweights from 1996-2003 that were much better than anyone he ever beat.
Best fighter he ever beat was Corrie Sanders. Big friggin deal.
Make all the excuses you want. He was 0-2 in the fights that really mattered.

The Byrd-V. Klitschko fight was a dreadful fight. Very little action. Klitschko did almost nothing in that fight. The scoring was terrible. As I have said on another post, Amercian judges usually don't automatically favor the American fighter over a non-American. Like judges everywhere, some are just incompetent as to how to score a fight. Should have been much closer. 7 points would mean that that Klitschko won 8 rounds. Please.

And he quit. This is boxing. He only had three rounds to go. Most other fighters would have toughed it out. If he just stands there he goes the distance. That has to count against him when rating him.

Yes I have an agenda. It is for people to realize that he was not that good. Some people do realize that he has no major wins, and came up short in two fights that a great fighter would have easily won.

They realize that he was slow, easy to hit and really had no great strengths.

Others grossly overrate him and resort to talking about his size and KO% against stiffs.

[SteveO]

He fought stiffs. There many other heavyweights from 1996-2003 that were much better than anyone he ever beat.

Okay, I'll bite.
Who were they? No point listing the ones his brother beat up BTW.
P.S Have you ever tried fighting with a torn rotator cuff?

[SteveO]

So it is flat out lies for anyone to claim Lewis suddenly mentioned retirement AFTER the Vitali fight.

Yes, Lewis had been mulling it over for a while.
I would have liked to see a rematch with Vitali but I think Lewis did the right thing for himself and his family.

[HomicideHenry]

I remember when all that happened. KO MAGAZINE covered it explicitly. It was all because of Roy Jones.

Lewis threw away his IBF belt, in the hopes that Holyfield would defeat Byrd, and Jones would defeat Ruiz.

In the hopes that Jones would defeat Holyfield, in the hopes that a $100 million dollar heavyweight clash between Lewis and Jones would take place. Only one problem: Holyfield was more shop worn and over the hill than anyone thought, and Byrd was alot more elusive and underrated than people thought. Holyfield hardly laid a glove, and it was incredibly boring. And while Jones did defeat Ruiz (in what was also a boring fight), there was some effort hoping to match Jones with either Holyfield or Tyson.

Jones, realizing that this was just nothing more than an experiment, returned to Light Heavyweight. The WBA title went back to Ruiz, who would lose it to Valuev (ironically, I thought Ruiz was robbed) and Byrd continued being the IBF champion until he rematched Wladimir Klitschko, who was still trying to rebuild his shattered image following his loss to Corrie Sanders a few years before. Byrd would be annihilated in this fight, his nose smashed to pieces: he chose to slug it out with Klitschko. A complete and total suicide move, from a man whose best assets were his speed.

Lewis, on the other hand, didn't care. He made millions from dumping the IBF title anyways. And he'd fight a few stiffs, and got a mega fight with a one-dimensional shell that was once Mike Tyson. And of course, he did a few movies and commercials. And of course, reality struck.... when Lewis's opponent Kirk Johnson got injured in training camp and was substituted by little known, little respected Vitali Klitschko, who made Lewis look old, vulnerable and weak.... contrary to whatever statement Lewis has ever made since that time, he retired because he knew he wouldn't have faired better in the rematch.

[Keko]

That is your " opinion " it has no relevance to the FACT he retired from boxing.

He did not mention retirement before this fight. Well decided later.
He was far from good days and left on time.
I'm realistic and just telling the facts.

I am sorry but you are WRONG. Lewis said he was considering retirement straight after the Tyson fight. He had been under pressure from his mother, and his ( now ) wife for a considerable time to retire.

He also made no secret of the fact he was only seriously interested in a rematch with Tyson. Small risk, massive reward. That is why he sued King in May 2003, claiming the promoter threatened and / or bribed Tyson into pulling out of a rematch.

So it is flat out lies for anyone to claim Lewis suddenly mentioned retirement AFTER the Vitali fight.

Prior to the fight with Johnson announced another two or three fights. Then Johnson injured and Vitaly was the last opponent.

Consideration retire does not mean that will be the time to retire.Sorry but it is so.

[Ambling Alp II]

He fought stiffs. There many other heavyweights from 1996-2003 that were much better than anyone he ever beat.

Okay, I'll bite.
Who were they? No point listing the ones his brother beat up BTW.
P.S Have you ever tried fighting with a torn rotator cuff?

The best win was Corrie Sanders which was after 2003. Who knows who the best opponent he beat before that would be. The legendary Obed Sullivan? That should tell you something.

From 1996-2003? Well, for awhile, Holyfield, Tyson, and Lewis were better. Light years better then anybody Klitschko ever beat. Michael Moorer, David Tua, ancient Foreman, ancient Holmes. For a short period of time Ibeabuchi.

As for the rotator cuff, yes I tore it when I won the WBS Super light heavyweight title.

[keithmoonhangover]

The only drivel is coming from you. The year Rahman upset Lewis ( 2001 ), V.K. was fighting Norris and Purrity in GERMANY. Lewis avenged the defeat in spectacular style in November of that year.

The year Lennox earned his biggest payday v Tyson, Vitali was still fighting Bean, and Donald in Germany. However the Donald fight earned him the right to fight for the WBA title, and must have had him near the top of the WBC rankings, hence they sanctioned the fight for their strap. A fight between them could well have taken place in Europe, there was no NEED for them to square off in the US.

I think we all know the biggest fight venues and revenue earners are in Vegas, and not the Staples Centre, and I would bet good money had the fight taken place on the agreed December date, Vegas is where it would have taken place purely for financial reasons. Hence the undercard fight in the US, so the public would see a fit Vitali knock over some stiff, while an unconditioned Lewis dispenses with the very ordinary Johnson.

It is beyond ridiculous to claim a fight between a 6' 7" guy, who in 33 fights had only been taken the distance once, plus had pulled out of a fight he was comfortably winning due to injury would generate no interest, and not be anticipated, particularly if the US public had seen him look far better than LL on the same fight card.

As for your examples of him fighting on PPV, as I said these were only successful because the majority of Americans desperately wanted to see Lewis lose, and despite the best efforts of the American judge ( enough to make both Jones Jr, and Foreman apologise and say they were ashamed to be Americans involved in the sport ) he didn't lose those fights.

Vitali was #1 in the WBC rankings when he met Lewis. Btw, I forgot that Lewis sued King. What I never understood was why King wanted to pull Tyson away from a rematch? Did he want Lewis to fight Ruiz, instead?

My memory is a bit vague, but hadn't Tyson left King before then? Wasn't Shelly Finkel guiding Tyson by then? And wasn't Tyson suing King before the first Lewis fight? Am I wrong on this? Buzz? Alp? Saad? Anyone know?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

They wanted to do rahman/Tyson instead of Lennox getting his immediate rematch. Rock left a huge pile of HBO guaranteed money on the table before the rematch and rolled the dice that he could win and fight Mike on showtime ppv. I imagine any legal action with Lennox was tied into getting his contractually obliged rematch. Past that I don't recall.

[jbizzle20]

The only drivel is coming from you. The year Rahman upset Lewis ( 2001 ), V.K. was fighting Norris and Purrity in GERMANY. Lewis avenged the defeat in spectacular style in November of that year.

The year Lennox earned his biggest payday v Tyson, Vitali was still fighting Bean, and Donald in Germany. However the Donald fight earned him the right to fight for the WBA title, and must have had him near the top of the WBC rankings, hence they sanctioned the fight for their strap. A fight between them could well have taken place in Europe, there was no NEED for them to square off in the US.

I think we all know the biggest fight venues and revenue earners are in Vegas, and not the Staples Centre, and I would bet good money had the fight taken place on the agreed December date, Vegas is where it would have taken place purely for financial reasons. Hence the undercard fight in the US, so the public would see a fit Vitali knock over some stiff, while an unconditioned Lewis dispenses with the very ordinary Johnson.

It is beyond ridiculous to claim a fight between a 6' 7" guy, who in 33 fights had only been taken the distance once, plus had pulled out of a fight he was comfortably winning due to injury would generate no interest, and not be anticipated, particularly if the US public had seen him look far better than LL on the same fight card.

As for your examples of him fighting on PPV, as I said these were only successful because the majority of Americans desperately wanted to see Lewis lose, and despite the best efforts of the American judge ( enough to make both Jones Jr, and Foreman apologise and say they were ashamed to be Americans involved in the sport ) he didn't lose those fights.

Vitali was #1 in the WBC rankings when he met Lewis. Btw, I forgot that Lewis sued King. What I never understood was why King wanted to pull Tyson away from a rematch? Did he want Lewis to fight Ruiz, instead?

My memory is a bit vague, but hadn't Tyson left King before then? Wasn't Shelly Finkel guiding Tyson by then? And wasn't Tyson suing King before the first Lewis fight? Am I wrong on this? Buzz? Alp? Saad? Anyone know?

Saad is pretty much correct and Finkel was Tyson's manager at the time. As best I can remember, Rahman dropped Cedric Kushner and went with King because Rahman really wanted Tyson and King was promising that. Whether King could've actually delivered is another story because Tyson did not settle with King until 2004. In the US, that was likely the more profitable fight, as opposed to a Lewis rematch, because Tyson was still such a big draw. Having two Americans, one of whom was Tyson and the other the guy who beat Lewis, could put asses in seats, stateside. Lewis immediately crushed that dream by suing to get a rematch.

[keithmoonhangover]

Vitali was #1 in the WBC rankings when he met Lewis. Btw, I forgot that Lewis sued King. What I never understood was why King wanted to pull Tyson away from a rematch? Did he want Lewis to fight Ruiz, instead?

My memory is a bit vague, but hadn't Tyson left King before then? Wasn't Shelly Finkel guiding Tyson by then? And wasn't Tyson suing King before the first Lewis fight? Am I wrong on this? Buzz? Alp? Saad? Anyone know?

Saad is pretty much correct and Finkel was Tyson's manager at the time. As best I can remember, Rahman dropped Cedric Kushner and went with King because Rahman really wanted Tyson and King was promising that. Whether King could've actually delivered is another story because Tyson did not settle with King until 2004. In the US, that was likely the more profitable fight, as opposed to a Lewis rematch, because Tyson was still such a big draw. Having two Americans, one of whom was Tyson and the other the guy who beat Lewis, could put asses in seats, stateside. Lewis immediately crushed that dream by suing to get a rematch.

You asked why King pulled Tyson away from a rematch. What I'm saying is, I don't think Tyson was still promoted by King at that point.