BoxRec

I like how you praise cus d amato as a genius trainer who guided the great mike tyson and patterson's careers when it suits your agenda (that amato would be able to train wilt chamberlain well enough to win a title).

But then when its inconvenient you dismiss mike tyson and as an inept incompetent short stubby heavtweight who never beat anyone of note...notice the contradiction? Because of your agenda that taller=better you have to shift the goal posts and tarnish cus d amatos' reputation by claiming mike wasnt a good heatweight and would easily lose to vitali...must be hard not being able to keep up with your own bs.

So lets recap:

-apparently david haye is an atg

-despite the fact the two best fighters valuev faced were haye (whom he lost to) and 40+ year old holyfield (who was robbed), kalan uses this as proof that taller fighters are just naturally better and get by on size and weight.

-that tyson apparently didnt beat anyone noteworthy, even though in the infamous wilt chamberlain thread he praises cus d amato as a genius trainer.

-tillis, tucker, and biggs were apparently "slow" and had no skills whatsoever, but apparently vitali klitschko of all people is a "fast, skilled heavyweight".

-tysons wins over other big men like golota and savarese apparently dont count because they were washed up somehow despite having winning records and in their early 30's. Holmes doesnt count either despite going on an 8 win streak, beating a prime ray mercer and going 12 with a prime holyfield in a thrilling war.

So basically any example of tyson beating a guy 6'3 220+ pounds or more dont count because ever single one of thise fighters were terrible boxers or pasr their prime when he fought them (convenient)

-but wait! Those guys get a pass for being past their best but apparently tysons losses to lewis, mcbride, and danny williams count despite the fact tyson had lost 3 years of his prime, had been through wars, cocaine, his best trainers were dead or gone, and he was in his late 30's and eaerly 40's!

-and apparentlt vitali is some sort of boxing god because kalan is willing to acknowledge lennox lewis' skill because it suits his agenda: apparently lewis, despite being 37 years old and being a bloated out of shape 250+ pounds, simply couldnt handle vitali and had to foul him and cheat with a mystical palm strike for a tko stoppage. Yes, the great lewis is p4p inferior to vitali based on this.

So using circular logic, if a washed up lewis beat the great mike tyson (because we know the tyson of 88' was the same as the one in 2003), and vitali beat this same great lennox lewis then OBVIOUSLY vitali would beat tyson. Because thats EXACTLY how boxing works. Frazier beat ali, Foreman beat Frazier, and Ali...oh wait.

So what does kalan demonstrate? He demonstrates that he is incredibly ignorant of boxing history. He has the writing style, mannerisms, and vocabulary of a 12 year old. He counts fights when a fighter is past his prime when its convenient. If he doesnt like a fighter "they didnt beat anyone good". He shifts goal posts and contradicts himself to run his agenda. He wont concede a single point no matter how many people disagree with him. He flames, uses insults, spams and curses and derails every. Single. Thread he participates in without fail.

How do the mods not see that this guy has zero intention of having an actual boxing discussion or debate? He is not here to learn, he is not here for mental sport or wit. He is not even here to have fun. It is very clear A) he is extremely delusional with a possible mental illness and truly believes he is smarter than everyone on the board. That we just dont get it or are being stubborn B) he is a child with access to the internet who thinks reading a few wikipedia articles makes them an expert, or C) hes just a straight up troll. I cannot fathom that a normal, functioning adult actually believes what he writes. Thats why hes on my ignore list and that is where he shall remain.

Cygnus475 wrote:I like how you praise cus d amato as a genius trainer who guided the great mike tyson and patterson's careers when it suits your agenda (that amato would be able to train wilt chamberlain well enough to win a title).

But then when its inconvenient you dismiss mike tyson and as an inept incompetent short stubby heavtweight who never beat anyone of note...notice the contradiction? Because of your agenda that taller=better you have to shift the goal posts and tarnish cus d amatos' reputation by claiming mike wasnt a good heatweight and would easily lose to vitali...must be hard not being able to keep up with your own bs.

-tillis, tucker, and biggs were apparently "slow" and had no skills whatsoever, but apparently vitali klitschko of all people is a "fast, skilled heavyweight".

-but wait! Those guys get a pass for being past their best but apparently tysons losses to lewis, mcbride, and danny williams count despite the fact tyson had lost 3 years of his prime, had been through wars, cocaine, his best trainers were dead or gone, and he was in his late 30's and eaerly 40's!

You like to engage in personal attacks instead of logical debate. You dismiss Vitali Klitschko like he was nothing. He was never floored and never behind on points after any fight. You stick Tyson up there as a wonder regardless of the fact he could be outboxed and lacked longevity.

D'Amato and Jacobs died at an unfortunate time -- and that arrested Tyson's development when he was 19 or so... His natural ability carried him until he met the first big, tall, fast, strong, very skilled, very smart, hard punching---previously very lazy---but well prepared boxer-puncher in Buster Douglas... Evander Holyfield wasn't a really big, tall man -- or a brutal puncher, but Evander finally worked his weight up to a rock solid 218 with a lot of strength training. That's heavier than Foreman was for Frazier 1... Holy was 3 inches taller than Tyson and extremely strong for his weight for those 2 fights. Evander had better boxing skills and simply trashed the younger Tyson, who's fistic development was arrested at age 20 or so, because as you say his most important mentors died.

Many ATG's retain exceptional trainers and coaches for their whole career -- and keep developing their skills through their 20's and early 30's to become extremely clever veterans who can outsmart a lot of stronger, faster, more powerful youngsters.. Holyfield, Lewis, Vitali, Wladimir, Haye, all had veteran moves and tricks that Tyson never developed... You have to be kidding with Lou Saverese and A. Golota... Those pathetic slugs couldn't beat any top fighter and never won a title... Vitali was 3-time Heavyweight Champion and won 15 World Title fights.

i would go tyson, but if vitali survives
three it is an open battle.

prime tyson was an extremely fast and
strong heavy, yet i do think vitali had
quite a heart and determination, which
is always kryptonite for a bully.

Why is Klitschko the one with heart and determination? Tyson was actually in tough fights with dangerous opponents and often won. Chris Byrd couldn't punch his way out of wet paper bag and Klitschko quit against him.

You know, that's just a very stupid and biased comment Ambling Alp... Vitali Kiltschko had a completely severed rotator cuff assembly vs Byrd, that ripped into 2 separate pieces.. The surgeons were astounded at his injury.. Despite the injury he was miles ahead... It was that injury that caused that defeat and nothing else...

It's no different than when Marcel Cerdan injured his shoulder badly and had to quit versus Jake LaMotta... or Sonny Liston ripped his left biceps and was forced to quit in the 1st Ali fight... Harry Greb had to quit in his Joe Chip fight because of an arm injury -- and Harry Wills suffered an arm injury and quit in the 2nd round in his fight with Battling Jim Johnson. Injuries happen and sometimes even allow inferior boxers to beat great boxers.

Chris Byrd was no fistic wonder... Wladimir completely dominated Byrd in 2 fights several years apart... And Vitali easily beat up and stopped Ross Puritty and Corrie Sanders, who each beat the crap out of Wladimir and stopped him -- and Vitali easily routed and stopped Sam Peter who knocked Wladimir down 3 times -- so I don't think Wladimir was a better Heavyweight than Vitali.

"Tyson was actually in tough fights with dangerous opponents and often won" .... And when he was in with very big, tall, strong, fast, skilled, smart, and very dedicated and prepared opponents he got the trash beaten out of him by Buster, Evander, and Lewis... Like I said, Evander wasn't that big or tall, but he was several inches taller than Tyson -- and with his 218 pounds of very well developed Heavyweight strength he handled Mike.

Chris Byrds athleticism allowed him to lure Vitali into twisting himself into injurious knots.

That is a fact.

Vitali lost a fight to Chris Byrd, because Chris was able to impose an injury on Vitali (with Vitali's unwitting help) by cleverly working the angles.

This is not that unusual my friend from another world, Kalel.

Let me tell you how this works out on planet earth. This injury we are speaking of happens to big Mac HW's who overly commit to punches when there is nothing there to be punched. They over extend, and OUILA!! damage ensues. Cmon, you knew that right?

You can find many such examples. Liston Clay was one. Not sure you like that example any better.

You need to think before you type another word, reflect on this physics lesson....it happens...even to the best of the best.


Why do I just KNOW that you are going to say that these injuries happened BEFORE the fights. Why? Because I'm related to Nostradamus? It's possible...or you are just becoming rather predictable.

BoxBuzz wrote:Chris Byrds athleticism allowed him to lure Vitali into twisting himself into injurious knots.

That is a fact.

Vitali lost a fight to Chris Byrd, because Chris was able to impose an injury on Vitali

Your brain is fried BuzzBox... That is a fact... It's incredible how Chris Byrd was able to lose 4 times to Alexander Povetkin, Ike Ibeabuchi, and Wladimir Klitschko while gettting knocked out 3 times -- and wasn't able to bring that magical gift of imposing injuries into play in those fights.

And it's just unbelievable how an undefeated Heavyweight Champion with Vitali Klitschko's vast experience and skills could be lured into twisting himself into injurious knots... He fought many clever boxers like Kevin Johnson, 22-0-1... Tomasz Adamek, 44-1... Juan Carlos Gomez, 44-1... Kevin Johnson 34-1... and Herbie Hide, 31-1... never over extending himself, and never injuring his arms, back, elbows, or shoulders.. The injury happened because injuries happen to every professional athlete at one time or another. They happen to great boxers and pathetic boxers alike. Usually they happen in training camp -- but sometimes they happen during a fight... How many fights have been postponed because of injuries suffered in camp???

You can't predict an injury... That would be like Charles Martin saying he planned for Czar Glazkov to blow his knee out... If your opponent suffers an injury that allows you to win easily it's very fortunate for you... Stop inventing stupid theories that can only happen in your warped and biased mind.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Why is Klitschko the one with heart and determination? Tyson was actually in tough fights with dangerous opponents and often won. Chris Byrd couldn't punch his way out of wet paper bag and Klitschko quit against him.

show me the tyson fight where things did not
go his way and he digged himself out of it.

your comment on the byrd fight is plain and
simple ... stupid.

Botha was boxing circles around him. Granted he came close to getting a dq before he landed the hail Mary. The Ruddock fights were grueling, tough fights with Tillis and Thomas. Mike isn't the poster boy for battling adversity, but he's far more proven than either Klitschko, especially vitali.

man wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Why is Klitschko the one with heart and determination? Tyson was actually in tough fights with dangerous opponents and often won. Chris Byrd couldn't punch his way out of wet paper bag and Klitschko quit against him.

show me the tyson fight where things did not
go his way and he digged himself out of it.

your comment on the byrd fight is plain and
simple ... stupid.

Razor Ruddock, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno all came to fight. They were not legends, but all of these guys had ability. They gave it everything they had. They threw hard meaningful punches. Tyson was as tough as them and beat them.

I dislike Mike Tyson as much as anyone. Look back, and you will see I have criticized many times. I do think some people overrate him with the "Prime Tyson" crap.
However, other people go to the other extreme and go with that bully analogy.
The truth is in the middle.

As Klitschko, everyone was stunned that he would quit like that. Yes, a doctor said he had a torn rotator cuff.
All he had to do was stand there for three more rounds. He did not even had throw a punch with that hand. A fighter with real courage would have toughed it out.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Mike isn't the poster boy for battling adversity, but he's far more proven than either Klitschko, especially vitali.

i do think mike is the superior boxer and
fighter and proved himself versus better
opposition than vitali. he was tough as nails
which is proven by him getting koed rather
than losing on points.

that said, i think he indeed struggled when
things didn't turn out as planned, though i
admit that was rather true for the post prison
version.

vitali in my opinion is a tough customer. it
is debatable whether a boxer should continue
a fight with virtually one arm. and of course
everyone has the danny williams example to
take out of the bag. my argument would be
that williams was on his way out and this fight
was about his last chance to get meaningful
bouts in the future, while vitali was on his way
in and didn't want to ruin his health. simply
speaking: danny williams bravery doesn't
make vitali a coward, especially since the latter
proved in fights after the one in question how
tough a man he was.

i do think vitali showed against lewis and versus
sanders that he could stand his ground. i think
i said in earlier posts that i figure mike would
win, i just don't think it is easy, especially if
the fight lasts more than three.

Ambling Alp II wrote:I dislike Mike Tyson as much as anyone. Look back, and you will see I have criticized many times. I do think some people overrate him with the "Prime Tyson" crap.
However, other people go to the other extreme and go with that bully analogy.
The truth is in the middle.

As Klitschko, everyone was stunned that he would quit like that. Yes, a doctor said he had a torn rotator cuff.
All he had to do was stand there for three more rounds. He did not even had throw a punch with that hand. A fighter with real courage would have toughed it out.

i actually do like and respect tyson a lot.
to me he stands out as being extremely
fast and powerful at the same time. he
just had a terrible life outside the ring
and it showed inside.

on the "fighter with real courage"-thing,
i don't know, assuming that a multi year
heavy weight champion with a massive
ko rate is a man with no "real courage"
just seems far fetched, especially after
the sanders- and lewis-bouts. nobody
raises this if someone twists an ankle,
a significant injury is a significant injury.

what i hole against him is not going for
an immediate rematch and taking byrd
out in three.

He couldn't have taken Byrd out with an automatic weapon. Vitalis not nearly the puncher for that task. He could have won a decision, or quit again

Vitali was a good puncher... He holds the 2nd highest KO ratio in Heavyweight Championship History for retired Heavyweights... He's the only guy who ever knocked out Larry Donald, Kirk Johnson, and Vaughan Bean. HOFers couldn't stop them. He was the 1st fighter to stop Tomasz Adamek, Chris Arreola, Odlanier Solis, Sam Peter and many others.

He stopped Corrie Sanders and Ross Puritty -- both of whom stopped his brother Wladimir. His brother beat the crap out of Chris Bryd twice, battering him to a mid-round stoppage after Wlad got with Steward who opened up his offense a bit.. Vitali had better KO ratio and more stopping power than his brother. Without his injury he would have smashed Byrd out quicker than his brother did it.

man wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:I dislike Mike Tyson as much as anyone. Look back, and you will see I have criticized many times. I do think some people overrate him with the "Prime Tyson" crap.
However, other people go to the other extreme and go with that bully analogy.
The truth is in the middle.

As Klitschko, everyone was stunned that he would quit like that. Yes, a doctor said he had a torn rotator cuff.
All he had to do was stand there for three more rounds. He did not even had throw a punch with that hand. A fighter with real courage would have toughed it out.

i actually do like and respect tyson a lot.
to me he stands out as being extremely
fast and powerful at the same time. he
just had a terrible life outside the ring
and it showed inside.

on the "fighter with real courage"-thing,
i don't know, assuming that a multi year
heavy weight champion with a massive
ko rate is a man with no "real courage"
just seems far fetched, especially after
the sanders- and lewis-bouts. nobody
raises this if someone twists an ankle,
a significant injury is a significant injury.

what i hole against him is not going for
an immediate rematch and taking byrd
out in three.

KO% does not mean much by itself. You have to take into competition.
He never came close to stopping Byrd in their crappy fight before he was injured and quit.
Don't see how he showed courage against Lewis. He fought an obese fighter, and got stopped in six rounds.

A serious ankle injury is completely different than a shoulder injury. If you can't stand up, you can't fight. If you hurt your shoulder, you can still stand up. Remeber, all he had to do was stand up for three rounds. Any fighter worth his salt would have toughed it out.
Tyson was light years better.

Tyson sucked... 42-1 underdog Buster Douglas.. Who was a lot shorter and smaller than Vitali Klitschko, but dwarfed Mike Tyson. He beat the living crap out Tyson and put him out with brutal smashes... Tyson was as short as the flabby little Frazier and he couldn't avoid those punches... Douglas was so big and long and fast, that all he had to do was throw and he hit Mike right in the face... He was big and strong enough to get Mike out.

You can't compare Vitali to big, stiff, slow guys like Michael Grant... Tomasz Adamek easily out boxed a 38-year-old Grant and beat him -- but Vitali Klitschko won every minute of every round from Adamek and stopped him -- so there's no comparison... Lewis did beat Grant by fouling the shit out of him and holding and hitting like crazy. He destroyed him quickly but should have been DQ'd ... He could't do that to Vitali who completely out-boxed Lewis and was winning on all scorecards after 6 rounds... The fight should have gone to the scorecards because those cuts were slashed opened by foul blows... Lewis was in perfect vs Vital condition... He averaged over 250 for his final 6 fights and deliberately added weight to be much stronger.

Tyson sucked...
Lewis was in perfect condition vs Kltischko...

Do you even believe what you are saying?

Out of curiosity, why is vitali iron chinned and Floyd is not? Granted, Mayweather has miles better defense, he also faced many miles better opposition. I think Lewis hurt him with that uppercut and if I had to use a crystal ball vitali likely would have been knocked out. Take that!

Vitali took the Lewis uppercut very easily... Lewis wobbled all over the ring when hit with those rights in the 2nd round.

Floyd has a real good, but not great chin. Floyd has a much better chin than his father or uncle.. He had to get that from his mom's side.. But he was knocked down versus Judah for a flash---and he was wobbling all over the ring on rubbery legs versus Mosley.. In the corner Roger told Floyd "You don't need to trade with him. just box him this round." Floyd had a grin on his face like "FK NO I ain't boxing this round" He attacked Mosley like a SOB for the whole 3rd round.. Shane pulled his horns in just like he did with Vernon Forrest when he got hurt.. Floyd said he noticed Mosley did nothing after Forrest hurt him.

Ambling Alp II wrote:KO% does not mean much by itself. You have to take into competition.
He never came close to stopping Byrd in their crappy fight before he was injured and quit.
Don't see how he showed courage against Lewis. He fought an obese fighter, and got stopped in six rounds.

A serious ankle injury is completely different than a shoulder injury. If you can't stand up, you can't fight. If you hurt your shoulder, you can still stand up. Remember, all he had to do was stand up for three rounds. Any fighter worth his salt would have toughed it out.
Tyson was light years better.

well, everyone else on the planet, including
the commentators and the crowd on location
had thought he had shown courage. actually
they all couldn't stop talking about it.

and "obese" might be a stretch. plus lennox
was not the bouncing around type to begin
with. his additional seven pounds would
have played a role towards the end of the
fight, but up to that point, lewis didn't
seem to gas to me.

on the injury. i don't know, i find it weird to
hold this against him despite all achievements
and define him by being a quitter. first of
all he had real, physical reason and second
no serious boxing fan calls even roberto duran
a "quitter". there are indeed "quitters", but these
two proved in many hours of other bouts that
they were not such men.

I don't fault him for it, but it wasn't a won. His achievements are a tiny footnote in boxing history, if even that. He was the big brother of a top 30 or 40 heavyweight.

Kalan wrote: He fought many clever boxers like Kevin Johnson, 22-0-1... Tomasz Adamek, 44-1... Juan Carlos Gomez, 44-1... Kevin Johnson 34-1... and Herbie Hide, 31-1...

so many that you have to name Kevin Johnson twice out of 4 names. And Adamek... do you even know what clever means?

Basically kalan wanted to list some clever boxers so went through wlads opponents to find the names with the fewest losses and just named them.

Jaywheel wrote:

Kalan wrote: He fought many clever boxers like Kevin Johnson, 22-0-1... Tomasz Adamek, 44-1... Juan Carlos Gomez, 44-1... Kevin Johnson 34-1... and Herbie Hide, 31-1...

so many that you have to name Kevin Johnson twice out of 4 names. And Adamek... do you even know what clever means?

This could be Charlie Z, he is that stupid.