BoxRec

tobyh5 wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote:

bripez wrote:Evander boxed as a light heavy as an amateur and a cruiserweight as a pro.

He then became mates with Lee Haney and went off grid for a full year - when he returned he was a ripped fully fledged heavyweight.

Maybe it's because he was older or did a few weights like others have said - it is really easy for the body to build lots of muscle if you are not careful ....... even though your bodies natural testosterone starts to d cline over the age of about 25 .......

So many heavyweight champs boxed as light heavies in the amateurs, including behemoths like Tony Tucker and Riddick Bowe. So not a sound point.

Also, Holyfield was boxing at 190 in April 1988, and 3 months later he was 202 versus Quick Tillis. Do you think he was walking around between fights at 190? No one thinks the 160 champs were walking around at 160. The 175 champs scaling a cut 175 all year round. Why is Evander Holyfield alone in boxing history singled out as the guy who was boxing at his exact natural weight?

Say what now?

You are trying to say Holy was clean and you believe did NOT take juice?!

No, but what he said didn't stack up. Uncountable fighters compete a couple of divisions above the one they boxed in at amateur, when they were teenagers or young adults. And Holyfield didn't disappear for a year. He was boxing at 190, walking around 200+. He quits the cruisers and 3 months later is boxing Tillis at the more comfortable 202. There's pictures of him as a 14 year old carved like a Michelangelo. Ken Norton, Mike Weaver, Frank Bruno, same thing.

But 12 lbs - Christ, Canelo gains more weight between the weigh in and the fight! Is that a rapid action steroid injection?

CaptainSpacerod wrote:

punchoutsb wrote:
There are some physical tells, but that depends more on the athletes training and nutrition. Performance enhancing drugs do not necessarily equal physique enhancing drugs. Haye's physique looks enhanced, Bellews does not but if there were an actual test that could not be beaten I'd imagine both would fail.

My opinion is that all high level athletes are taking something. When I say all there will of course always be a few exceptions, but in the case of pro sports it is the VERY few. Think about it, millions upon millions of dollars potentially available to you; wouldn't you do whatever you could to reach that especially given the relatively low risks of being caught?

Clearly you know your stuff and you mention that you work in the fitness industry but there's a big leap of faith from a "most of my friends at college were doing it" type remark to sweeping generalizations like the above comment. I'm sure you make the comment in good faith but like all the others who jump on the "they're all doping" bandwagon there's very little actual evidence to back it up.

You would have me believe that the vast majority of professional athletes are cheating and their back up staff ( their clubs, coaches, doctors, medical personnel etc) are all complicit even though in many cases this could lead to exclusion from the sport they've spent most of their life playing and consequent loss of livelihood.

Not only this but the many thousands of people who in the last few years have retired from sport or no longer work as support staff all loyally abide by this code of omerta.

Doesn't seem very realistic does it.

The evidence is the improvement in terms of sporting performance with the advent of PED's. You can purchase 8 weeks of testosterone for less that $100 dollars and see immediately health and performance benefits without anyone else needing to know. It's common knowledge among athletes, trainers, and coaches, no code of omerta needed. This isn't just down to personal experience, it's also a case of logic. Millions upon millions (billions in the case of clubs and owners) of dollars at stake for playing games that don't matter. Just let that sink in.

Tuan_Jim wrote: But 12 lbs - Christ, Canelo gains more weight between the weigh in and the fight! Is that a rapid action steroid injection?

There is a HUGE difference between 12 pounds of water and 12 pounds of lean body mass.

punchoutsb wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote: But 12 lbs - Christ, Canelo gains more weight between the weigh in and the fight! Is that a rapid action steroid injection?

There is a HUGE difference between 12 pounds of water and 12 pounds of lean body mass.

How does one look at a video tape and distinguish water, flesh, bone et al? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely puzzled.

If Holyfield in the late 80s is walking around between fights at 200+, quits cruiser and boxes Tillis at 202lb, why is it considered a sudden augmentation of muscle? Nunn takes a non-title fight over 160, at 168, still looks physically immaculate, and yet no one thinks that he's 'artificially' added 8lbs of mass, everyone presumes he's walking around between fights at 170+ so a fight at 168 is natural. Spinks walks around between fights 200+, moves from light heavy to heavy, looks solid, slays a monster in Cooney, no stain on his reputation. I don't understand the double standard with Holyfield. He's the only fighter in all of boxing history where every single pound he weighs over 190 is seen (by many) as unnatural.

At what weight would men with naturally muscular physiques like Norton, Weaver, Holyfield et al start looking simply fat? 18 stone plus?

Tuan_Jim wrote:

punchoutsb wrote:

Tuan_Jim wrote: But 12 lbs - Christ, Canelo gains more weight between the weigh in and the fight! Is that a rapid action steroid injection?

There is a HUGE difference between 12 pounds of water and 12 pounds of lean body mass.

How does one look at a video tape and distinguish water, flesh, bone et al? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely puzzled.

If Holyfield in the late 80s is walking around between fights at 200+, quits cruiser and boxes Tillis at 202lb, why is it considered a sudden augmentation of muscle? Nunn takes a non-title fight over 160, at 168, still looks physically immaculate, and yet no one thinks that he's 'artificially' added 8lbs of mass, everyone presumes he's walking around between fights at 170+ so a fight at 168 is natural. Spinks walks around between fights 200+, moves from light heavy to heavy, looks solid, slays a monster in Cooney, no stain on his reputation. I don't understand the double standard with Holyfield. He's the only fighter in all of boxing history where every single pound he weighs over 190 is seen (by many) as unnatural.

At what weight would men with naturally muscular physiques like Norton, Weaver, Holyfield et al start looking simply fat? 18 stone plus?

Using PED's isn't a stain in my opinion as I think it's widespread across professional sports. You haven't named a natural athlete yet (again, in my opinion), though Holyfield certainly looked the least natural of anyone you named.

So every boxee that comes in ripped is on peds, or is it every boxer in the sport?

I dont doubt that some are on peds but to claim it is widespread with zero evidence apart from a few mates in college done it. I served in the army with people taking roids, but guarentee you that not everyone was at it.

Could it be that haye looks like that because he has the dedication required to look like that along with access to the best coaches, the time to ensure he eats properly, sleeps properly etc or am i just naive

Interesting article on drugs in Boxing by Elliot Worsell:

http://www.boxingnewsonline.net/drugs-in-boxing/

nitro5912 wrote:So every boxee that comes in ripped is on peds, or is it every boxer in the sport?

I dont doubt that some are on peds but to claim it is widespread with zero evidence apart from a few mates in college done it. I served in the army with people taking roids, but guarentee you that not everyone was at it.

Could it be that haye looks like that because he has the dedication required to look like that along with access to the best coaches, the time to ensure he eats properly, sleeps properly etc or am i just naive

Id be very surprised if Haye cheats, he's always been in good shape, he's done martial arts and boxing from a young age and he doesn't get fat between fights. He is a vegan now and has always lifted heavy weights and taken advantage of other experts like dieticians, body conditioning coaches etc.. Some people just have good genetics.

big lennox wrote:Interesting article on drugs in Boxing by Elliot Worsell:

http://www.boxingnewsonline.net/drugs-in-boxing/

Thanks for that. Saddening really.
I like Steve USS Cunningham's attitude.
I heard a rumour the Money megalomaniac was a cheat at the Manny fight.
Can someone point me in the direction of an article about that please?

We need to remember that PED's are not limited to the kind of gear your average doorman takes in his local gym!

Even after all the cycling controversy, I naively believed that British cycling was pretty clean - but then we find out that 90% of the British cycling team (including Wiggins) were taking drugs prescribed for asthma !

How the fook do they all have asthma?

Clearly these are drugs that are performance enhancing, yet are not "illegal" to take.

What about that bird tennis player Maria Sharapova - there was a drug prescribed for people with heart conditions that is usually prescribed for a few months, she was taking the stuff for 10 years !

Although not "illegal" this was still a performance enhancing drug.

The only bollok she made was not keeping an eye on the banned list - she still carried on taking it after it was banned, it hadn't been a problem for the previous years.

bripez wrote:We need to remember that PED's are not limited to the kind of gear your average doorman takes in his local gym!

Even after all the cycling controversy, I naively believed that British cycling was pretty clean - but then we find out that 90% of the British cycling team (including Wiggins) were taking drugs prescribed for asthma !

How the fook do they all have asthma?

Clearly these are drugs that are performance enhancing, yet are not "illegal" to take.

What about that bird tennis player Maria Sharapova - there was a drug prescribed for people with heart conditions that is usually prescribed for a few months, she was taking the stuff for 10 years !

Although not "illegal" this was still a performance enhancing drug.

The only bollok she made was not keeping an eye on the banned list - she still carried on taking it after it was banned, it hadn't been a problem for the previous years.

They're all northeners and it is grim up there. Proper damp all the time, gets right on your chest and makes you wheezy. Quick toot on an inhaler and you're sound

with Wiggins it was the timing.... his asthma mysteriously playing up and needing "treatment" just before two Grand Tours....

big lennox wrote: The turning point for me, was when Manny turned down a 50%, $40m +PPV split with Mayweather because he refused to take a blood test.

- Are you that much of a masochist that you have to self impugn yourself at every turn?

My good buddy boxrec has a better source than your moon made of green cheese, Obama born in the Kenyan bush nonsense. You should give boxrec a shout now and again as he's real friendly and generally knows a lot.
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:1957156

""Mayweather and Pacquiao had a phone conversation on January 19, 2012, and discussed terms for a fight. "He offered me $40 million, and no pay-per-view [money]," Pacquiao said. "I told him, 'OK, 50-50 [with the money] and I'll agree to everything else,' I told him I would agree to all of the other things he was demanding. Everything. Even the blood testing he wanted, I would do it. But it had to be 50-50." Mayweather said, "He faces Floyd Mayweather, he's not getting 50-50. Not at all. No one is getting 50-50.""

How sweetly ironic this sets off the TUE 49-0 downhill slide in public reputation although I figured him out as a worthless sissy a long time ago. He also demanded Manny break with Arum and sign with TUE Promotions and other dumb stuff. That was months before Manny took the bogus Bradley loss, but 3 years later their purse guarantees were a 60-40 split/TUE 120mil-Manny 80mil with Manny clearing at least 150+ mil after the rest of the calculations came in. Luckily boxrec dolts weren't in charge of Manny's career to take an unsecured lowball offer by a novice promoter who had two fight purses seized by the IRS, his music business Filthy Rich evicted and sued for failure to pay rent, and being sued for a million bucks for non payment of diamond jewelry be bought, ect, ect.

Really now, you should try harder to make your Transnational Rankings better as opposed to always impugning yourself. I still have serious doubts about their validity being any better than the average boxrec poster.

As to the every athlete and fighter being on PEDs nonsense, to modern trainers surrounded by like minded peers, yeah, everyone doing it just like to guys who only use whores, it follows every woman looks like a whore and so on. At any rate, we just had a US presidential election where the candidates nor any politician had to undergo a complete physical examination and Olympic or any other drug testing protocol, so already boxers have had better reputations for a long time. Same deal with business leaders in the corporate world though they could sign up with VADA for BALCO Victor's Conte's magic elixirs and pass every VADA drug test, now there's the ticket to a clean program!

andyharrison wrote:http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2015/9 ... rust-usada

Thanks for that. A long but fascinating read.
I knew Floyd's power in the industry helped control purses and opponents, plus he had his favourite ref Kenny Gutless, but I didn't know he was manipulating testing etc.
I remember the accusations against Manny by Floyd and dismissed them. It's the bully pointing the finger to cover himself, a common thing in bully behaviour.

All that aside, Haye is going to get gassed looking like that if Bellew manages to last a few rounds (which I don't think he will though)

revporl wrote:All that aside, Haye is going to get gassed looking like that if Bellew manages to last a few rounds (which I don't think he will though)

Not sure. Heavies fight at a slower pace and I can't remember Haye gassing since Thompson

Syntax Error wrote:

bripez wrote:

punchoutsb wrote:He looks in good shape, but hardly ripped in the true sense of the word. The traps are unbelievably good for a natural athlete

Traps are a dead give away - I have seen literally hundreds of lads in gyms who suddenly develop good traps, and it isn't all down to doing shrugs

He looks like Evander Holyfield in his HW prime with those bulging Trapezium muscles.

Holyfield was the person who came to mind for me when I saw that picture.