BoxRec

Horse wrote:

ewenhay wrote:With the benefit of hindsight Froch was a credible opponent but at the time wasn't viewed as one as he hadn't beaten anyone of note and very few people were interested in watching it to make it financially viable

No, there was interest at the time and Froch was credible at the time.

I get where you are coming from but boxing is all about timing and the timing was never right for this fight.

Horse wrote:

ewenhay wrote:With the benefit of hindsight Froch was a credible opponent but at the time wasn't viewed as one as he hadn't beaten anyone of note and very few people were interested in watching it to make it financially viable

No, there was interest at the time and Froch was credible at the time.

I am afraid that we forgot Andre Ward, Froch was a pretty exciting fighter, but Calzaghe was on the level above him.

Horse wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:And Froch was being served the likes of a shot robin reid in 2007, who was well past his best.

And Calzaghe's lesser opponents in the last 5 years of his career where doing what?

Ossyrules wrote:Froch wasn't an option for Calzaghe worth considering till 2008. By which point he was checking out with hopkins and jones jr

But Evans Ashira was an option worth considering?

Ossyrules wrote:There careers didn't over lap for the fight to happen.

There was over 6.5 years of career overlap, with Froch being a credible opponent for about 5 of those years.

Plenty of time to get the fight made.

We won't agree

Ossyrules wrote:We won't agree

You are clearly wrong and you should stop being silly.

Horse wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:We won't agree

You are clearly wrong and you should stop being silly.

Lol

Don't see it your way

Tanzio wrote:

Loki wrote:

Horse wrote:Froch vs Calzaghe would have made more than most of his defences.

I believe the original point was that Froch wasn't a viable opponent until he beat Pascal in 2008, but I'd say he was a viable opponent way before that.

It's just that he wasn't an especially appealing opponent given the somewhat unfavourable risk vs reward ratio for Calzaghe and, to a lesser extent, Froch.

If there was only going to be one winner (I assume you mean Calzaghe), then why didn't Calzaghe take the fight and beat him easily?

The answer is that it was certainly not a forgone conclusion that Calzaghe would have won and Calzaghe wasn't much of a risk taker.

Now I get it; you're a Cobra fanboy. I like Froch, a tough chap. I remember seeing him live at York Hall early 2000s. I'd stack him to beat most of the other British SMWs from the golden era barring Eubank.

But, that wasn't the original post. It was whether offers were made and a career high payday. Please read it. JC, as I recall, had to face a long line of WBO mandatories e.g Veit etc to keep his belt. Froch v JC circa 2005 would've made peanuts and Joe would've lost his bargaining chip, ergo, his belt.

The Germans had the others hostage.

In terms of JC v Froch, although a very tough fighter, Froch was simply too slow and JC was clearly the better boxer. He probably would've boxed his ears off, all wrong for Froch IMO. It would've ended similar to Froch's loss to Ward.

I agree that Calslappy would have likely outclassed Froch at that time, but Froch has fought others that were supposed to outclass him and it did not work out that way.

I agree with Mr. Ed. The Froch fight was absolutely a viable option and it would have been a successful promotion.

I also do not think that the man called horse is a Froch fanboy.

By calling Mr Ed a Froch fanboy; it wasn't meant to be an insult. I'm a Froch fan.

I agree with the comment that Froch would've been a viable opponent, but it wouldn't have made sense for JC to take it given he wanted to unify. Froch was largely untested until Pascal fight (at world level). Would Froch have been a better opponent than Ashira, Veit etc in 2005; of course. But, I was arguing the point that JC would've earned just as much in his mandatory WBO defences until JC fought Lacey in 2006. I was also challenging the fact that The Enlightened One stated that JC turned down two career best pay days against Froch. If you look at JCs bouts, that could've only been in 2008.

Froch wasn't really a household boxing name in 2005. His best wins were against Reid and Dobson.

Calzaghe had 18 title defences by then and a least half of them were against former champions or title challengers.

Ossyrules wrote:

Horse wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:We won't agree

You are clearly wrong and you should stop being silly.

Lol

Don't see it your way

Agree to disagree. See my post above.

Horse wrote:

Loki wrote:Now I get it; you're a Cobra fanboy. I like Froch, a tough chap. I remember seeing him live at York Hall early 2000s. I'd stack him to beat most of the other British SMWs from the golden era barring Eubank.

But, that wasn't the original post. It was whether offers were made and a career high payday.

This was the original point that started our back and forth:

Horse wrote:

Loki wrote:Where is your evidence? Froch really was only a viable opponent in 2008 after beating Pascal, then Taylor to win a belt. I highly doubt JC v Froch made more financial sense than JC v BHop or RJJ. JC retired in 2008.

No, Froch was a viable opponent from 2004 after the won the British title.

It's not as if Calzaghe was only fighting the crème de la crème throughout most of his reign.

I was never involved in the discussion about whether Calzaghe was offered a career high payday to fight Froch.

Loki wrote:Please read it. JC, as I recall, had to face a long line of WBO mandatories e.g Veit etc to keep his belt. Froch v JC circa 2005 would've made peanuts and Joe would've lost his bargaining chip, ergo, his belt.

Are you sure about that?

Who are all of these WBO mandatories he had to fight?

Loki wrote:The Germans had the others hostage.

In terms of JC v Froch, although a very tough fighter, Froch was simply too slow and JC was clearly the better boxer. He probably would've boxed his ears off, all wrong for Froch IMO. It would've ended similar to Froch's loss to Ward.

Calzaghe should have fought him then.

Confusion here then. I think we were arguing different points, mine was the latter - £. See my post above.

I'm know that Giminez, Veit, Salem were. I'm sure he picked Mitchell, Reid and Woodall. You have to remember Calzaghe was injured frequently after 2003, so there were periods of inactivity.

TBH, he managed his career really well. Pity he and Froch never fought.

Ossyrules wrote:

Horse wrote:

ewenhay wrote:It was never a realistic fight. Calzaghe was looking to retire and wanted to fight in Vegas and madison square garden at Light heavyweight. Froch was British super middle champ. They were in totally different places almost an entire generation apart.

It was a realistic fight.

In 2004 Calzaghe fought: Mger Mkrtchyan & Kabary Salem
In 2005 Calzaghe fought: Mario Veit II & Evans Ashira
In 2006 Calzaghe fought: Jeff Lacy & Sakio Bika
In 2007 Calzaghe fought: Peter Manfredo Jr & Mikkel Kessler
In 2008 Calzaghe fought: Bernard Hopkins & Roy Jones Jr


Froch wasn't good enough to fight Calzaghe in the last 5 years of his career?

Apart from the bolded 3 fighters, Froch was arguably a more credible opponent than all of the others at the time.

And Froch was being served the likes of a shot robin reid in 2007, who was well past his best.

Froch wasn't an option for Calzaghe worth considering till 2008. By which point he was checking out with hopkins and jones jr

There careers didn't over lap for the fight to happen.

Spot on.

I rewatched Calzaghe-Jones five minutes ago. Unbelievable, Calzaghe was so speedy and versatile, he made RJJ looked like a novice. OK, Jones was not in his prime, but he is older than JC only three years.
Right now, I am not so sure that Ward would beat Calzaghe in this fantasy match.....

Enlightened-One wrote:

SFW wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote:Joe Calzaghe's unorthodox volume slapping would have presented a huge problem to any fighter, but unfortunately for him, the biggest names on his resume were all far removed from their physical primes, apart from Kessler.

The Welshman was also offered career-high purses twice to face Carl Froch, but he declined the opportunity to face the man from Nottingham in preference of receiving smaller paydays against easier opposition.

Andre Ward takes the victory in this fight comfortably.

This Froch accusation does need some proof, because it sounds like bullshit. Retrospective made up bullshit, which has followed Calzaghe forever. So, another long winded opportunity is here, please explain.

It's not bûllshît. I have previously presented my evidence to the forum. I can do so again... later on this evening.

I have a proven track record of defending my claims by citing evidence, so I'm a tad surprised that you doubt me.

Do you care to keep saying the word "bûllshît" over-and-over again, or do you care to research the matter for yourself and retract your bûllshît accusations before I post the proof?

Calzaghe flat out ducked Froch.. Calzaghe was tailor made for Froch.. because he led with his head and even Kessler nailed Calzaghe with big shots.. Froch was not a great boxer but he could hit real good if you shoved your head into his wheelhouse like Calzaghe and Bute were prone to do.. Mitchell, Jones, and Hopkins decked Calzaghe when he was sticking his head in there recklessly -- so he's been on the canvas more than Ward has. When Calzaghe cherry-picked Peter Manfredo -- Froch was 20-0 and had been calling Calzaghe out for years.. It would have been bigger than Froch-Groves which packed Wembley with 87,000 asses.

Calzaghe never had a good trainer -- his dad never boxed and was his trainer all his life.. JC was a rich man's Nathan Cleverly. He relied on his speed and reflexes and taught himself how to fight.. Ward does everything by the book with the correct stance and balance.. He would easily outpoint Calzaghe.

Thomastearns wrote:

syza wrote:Calzaghe's relentlessness and pace makes it hard for anyone at the weight to steal rounds off him imo..w

Yes Calzaghe is the great round stealer of recent times. No serious power, but phenomenal hand/slap speed. Like Leonard and Mayweather, his fragile hands forced him to fight like that. Great footwork, chin and stamina. Brilliant focus. Ridiculously underrated.

His hands looked fine in his destruction of lacy.

Kalan wrote:

Enlightened-One wrote:

SFW wrote:
This Froch accusation does need some proof, because it sounds like bullshit. Retrospective made up bullshit, which has followed Calzaghe forever. So, another long winded opportunity is here, please explain.

It's not bûllshît. I have previously presented my evidence to the forum. I can do so again... later on this evening.

I have a proven track record of defending my claims by citing evidence, so I'm a tad surprised that you doubt me.

Do you care to keep saying the word "bûllshît" over-and-over again, or do you care to research the matter for yourself and retract your bûllshît accusations before I post the proof?

Calzaghe flat out ducked Froch.. Calzaghe was tailor made for Froch.. because he led with his head and even Kessler nailed Calzaghe with big shots.. Froch was not a great boxer but he could hit real good if you shoved your head into his wheelhouse like Calzaghe and Bute were prone to do.. Mitchell, Jones, and Hopkins decked Calzaghe when he was sticking his head in there recklessly -- so he's been on the canvas more than Ward has. When Calzaghe cherry-picked Peter Manfredo -- Froch was 20-0 and had been calling Calzaghe out for years.. It would have been bigger than Froch-Groves which packed Wembley with 87,000 asses.

Calzaghe never had a good trainer -- his dad never boxed and was his trainer all his life.. JC was a rich man's Nathan Cleverly. He relied on his speed and reflexes and taught himself how to fight.. Ward does everything by the book with the correct stance and balance.. He would easily outpoint Calzaghe.

Absolutely no chance

For starters you must be joking 87 thousand at Wembley. It's legendary that Froch goes on about 80 thousand! Where you get the extra 7k!

Anyway main point, Froch struggled against speed throughout his career. He gets out fought in the exchanges. Calzaghe has been put down, but he wasn't chinny. Froch is tough and game, but so is Calzaghe. Calzaghe isn't going to fade and Froch can get to him late, Calzaghe will be right there throwing punches in bunches till the end.

Froch admitted on U.K. Tv that he wouldn't be able to out point Calzaghe. His only way would be to stop him. I don't see Froch stopping Calzaghe, at all

And it wouldn't have done 90k. Boxing is bigger now in U.K than in 2008 around the time they could have fought. The promotion wasn't as big then. Froch wasn't a big name, and to be honest Calzaghe despite being a long time champion was way short of the acclaim his predecessors Benn and eubank enjoyed.

Calzaghe out points Froch all day on this one

That's all a tub of bullsh!t and speculation... Calzaghe got nailed and hurt and knocked down a few times... He just never fought anybody who could really punch.. Nobody dangerous.. Froch could HIT!!! ... George Groves can take a whack can't he??? But he also gets hit like Calzaghe did... How many times was Groves stopped??? Well...he only fought one (1) puncher in his life -- and he only fought him twice -- so I guess he was knocked out twice..

Calzaghe never fought a prime puncher... So even though he was hit in the head real hard, and hurt and dropped a few times -- he escaped being iced.

Kalan wrote:That's all a tub of bullsh!t and speculation... Calzaghe got nailed and hurt and knocked down a few times... He just never fought anybody who could really punch.. Nobody dangerous.. Froch could HIT!!! ... George Groves can take a whack can't he??? But he also gets hit like Calzaghe did... How many times was Groves stopped??? Well...he only fought one (1) puncher in his life -- and he only fought him twice -- so I guess he was knocked out twice..

Calzaghe never fought a prime puncher... So even though he was hit in the head real hard, and hurt and dropped a few times -- he escaped being iced.

Complete shite

Andre Ward imo would dispatch of Joe in 6 rounds of less and would more than likely make it look very simple, no disrespect to Joe just acknowledging the skill level in both fighters.

Kalan wrote:That's all a tub of bullsh!t and speculation... Calzaghe got nailed and hurt and knocked down a few times... He just never fought anybody who could really punch.. Nobody dangerous.. Froch could HIT!!! ... George Groves can take a whack can't he??? But he also gets hit like Calzaghe did... How many times was Groves stopped??? Well...he only fought one (1) puncher in his life -- and he only fought him twice -- so I guess he was knocked out twice..

Calzaghe never fought a prime puncher... So even though he was hit in the head real hard, and hurt and dropped a few times -- he escaped being iced.

Froch could hit?

That's strange as I don't recall this one punch conclusive POWAH being shown very often throughout his career. Froch was a cumulative puncher. I mean come on, Bute decided to defend Carl's punches with his face for five rounds and we still didn't see this power.

TNTHands wrote:Andre Ward imo would dispatch of Joe in 6 rounds of less and would more than likely make it look very simple, no disrespect to Joe just acknowledging the skill level in both fighters.

When was the last time Ward stopped someone in 6 or under?

When was the last time Joe beat a real champion worth mentioning in his prime?

TNTHands wrote:When was the last time Joe beat a real champion worth mentioning in his prime?

Mikkel Kessler?

Lol at 'just acknowledging the skill level'....even Paul Smith went past 6.

I have a feeling TNT has been here before

Covfefe wrote:

TNTHands wrote:When was the last time Joe beat a real champion worth mentioning in his prime?

Mikkel Kessler?

I said someone worth mentioning, Kessler was a good fighter, but not world class imo.

TNTHands wrote:

Covfefe wrote:

TNTHands wrote:When was the last time Joe beat a real champion worth mentioning in his prime?

Mikkel Kessler?

I said someone worth mentioning, Kessler was a good fighter, but not world class imo.

How is he not worth mentioning? He beat Carl Froch when Kessler was suffering from injuries and in the slide.

crusader wrote:Lol at 'just acknowledging the skill level'....even Paul Smith went past 6.

I have a feeling TNT has been here before

what does Paul Smith have to do with Andre Ward's level of talent?

I have a feeling you are just another Ward hater who refuses to recognize how great he is in the ring.

Joe was a good fighter no doubt, but he will never be mentioned as an all time great.

Covfefe wrote:

TNTHands wrote:

Covfefe wrote:
Mikkel Kessler?

I said someone worth mentioning, Kessler was a good fighter, but not world class imo.

How is he not worth mentioning? He beat Carl Froch when Kessler was suffering from injuries and in the slide.

Calzaghe wouldn't even fight Froch, and Ward would dominate all three of them. That's how.