BoxRec

Tony1244 wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:Chamberlain was an extraordinary athlete and May vs McG is a joke, agreed there. But with no boxing experience, Wilt would have had no chance. Zero. I didn't find Ali-Enoki funny, but Andre vs Wepner was great theater.

Chamberlain was such an outstanding athlete -- and could exchange punches with such speed and power -- that Ali would soon be mince meat.

Andre the Giant was the world's worst athlete. He couldn't even run or jump well, yet Wepner -- who went 15 rounds with Ali -- couldn't hurt him.

After 3 rounds of nothing much happening, Andre grabbed Chuck Wepner and flung him out of the ring -- ending the so called "fight."

The whole night was an embarrassment ... and total disgrace for Boxing.

I could be wrong of course but I think Andre vs Wepner was more theater than fight. I don't think Andre wanted to break Chuck's neck.

People who believe Wilt would have beaten Al either know nothing about boxing or are looking for a reaction. You may be in your own category; you know a lot of detail about the HW division so I don't see you as being in the former category. My theory is that you were a H U G E and I mean H U G E Wilt fan. Some people get annoyed by your Wilt stuff but I think you're trying to get a rise out of people and/or see the guy as a God.

The Andre vs Wepner fight was a REAL contest.. Wepner knew it was very risky, but it was good money.. Thankfully he didn't get killed because Andre started to get really aggravated with Wepner.. He could have really hurt him if he wanted to, because he was allowed to grab and throw him.

Most fans know very little about Boxing or have almost no idea what actual size, strength, athleticism or actual physical talent mean in that ring... They don't know that almost every man who is over 7 feet tall and 280 pounds is poorly coordinated and cannot run, jump, spin, or turn on a dime like an ordinary sized athlete who's 6'3" tall or so.. Most all great big guys have David Price type coordination and speed.. Not Wilt Chamberlain. He was one of a kind.

There's a reason nobody else in NBA History scored a 100 points in a game with a whole team hanging on him in the 4th quarter to stop him -- or pulled down 55 rebounds in a game, or came close to Chamberlains other individual records.. Chamberlain could also jump out of the gym and fire full court passes like nobody else.. So yeah.. Unlike the popular perception of the public -- Ali didn't sign because he was damned scared of Wilt. And my favorite b-ball player was Kobe Bryant, but I knew Chamberlain probably had the most raw talent, speed and power of any athlete. My favorite boxer ever is Loma.

Ali-Inoki was boring as hell because it wasn't fixed; if it had been fixed, they would have fixed it to be more entertaining. -- Andre-Wepner was exciting and fun, because it was fixed (staged), it was classic professional wrestling.

Ali-Inoki is the perfect example of why a boxer and wrestler shouldn't fight. If left to fight their fight, the wrestler is gong to get down into a crab position where he can't be punched (all the while kicking at the boxer's legs trying to entangle them), and the boxer is going to jump around the ring not letting the wrestler grab and pull him down to the canvas. - That's what happened that night, isn't it? - Both men did exactly what they should have done, and it was boring as hell. - Match a boxer and a wrestler, and what happened that night, is the logical outcome; A REAL desire for self preservation, by the fighters, forced the styles and the (boring) result. No fix.

I repeat, if it had been a fixed fight they would have fixed it to be more entertaining; nobody deliberately 'stages' a boring event, and Ali-Inoki was boring.

APerno wrote:Ali-Inoki was boring as hell because it wasn't fixed; if it had been fixed, they would have fixed it to be more entertaining. -- Andre-Wepner was exciting and fun, because it was fixed (staged), it was classic professional wrestling.

Ali-Inoki is the perfect example of why a boxer and wrestler shouldn't fight. If left to fight their fight, the wrestler is gong to get down into a crab position where he can't be punched (all the while kicking at the boxer's legs trying to entangle them), and the boxer is going to jump around the ring not letting the wrestler grab and pull him down to the canvas. - That's what happened that night, isn't it? - Both men did exactly what they should have done, and it was boring as hell. - Match a boxer and a wrestler, and what happened that night, is the logical outcome; A REAL desire for self preservation, by the fighters, forced the styles and the (boring) result. No fix.

I repeat, if it had been a fixed fight they would have fixed it to be more entertaining; nobody deliberately 'stages' a boring event, and Ali-Inoki was boring.

APerno... put on your thinking cap for a second, because I know you have one. Andre-Wepner was NOT classic professional wrestling or it would have exhibited skill and technique - and would have lasted longer. it was sloppy, slow, boring as Hell to watch, and nothing was happening. Three rounds of flailing and rabbit punching by the inept Wepner who can't box or punch a lick -- and then he was tossed rather gently out of the ring, couldn't get back in time, and was ruled out. It was a ripoff for anybody who paid to see a "fight"

And I can't believe you have no idea how a boxer vs wrestler match would go... Any really good wrestler with any boxing experience is going to cut off the ring, move right in on the boxer, grab him, throw him down, pin him, submit him, or sit on him and punch him out. Like Couture vs Toney. That "fight" was over before it started. Toney didn't land a punch or do one damned thing to Couture. Couture felt sorry for him.

And Ali-Inoki WAS fixed... At least the decision was... But it wasn't choreographed and it stunk the joint out... Ali just stood there doing nothing.

But Ali-Inoki WASN'T Boxing vs Wrestling -- because the contact was rewritten to ensure that Inoki was NOT ALLOWED TO WRESTLE!!!

Clinching was allowed, but would be broken up immediately by the referee.. Inoki couldn't do throws, take downs, submission holds, or anything he was good at.. He also couldn't punch Ali with his bare fists.. He was allowed to kick Ali to the back of the legs (Ali mistakenly thought he could avoid these blows) and clinch and that was it. Ali threw 6 punches and landed 2 very soft ones all night. Inoki did all the work. He fired and landed scores of kicks to Ali legs so he obviously won the match... He was robbed blind by the draw and didn't have the slightest mark on him. In sharp contrast Ali was badly damaged and had to be hospitalized -- because he had blood clots from the beating his legs took.

The trick for a boxer when he's fighting a wrestler is to have it out on an open parking lot, where there is no "corner". Keeping the wrestler at the end of your strike is key.

So a football field might be a good choice for a genuine encounter of this nature. Beginning in the center of the 50 yard line.

Depending on how good a boxer's take down defense is - that might work... But that's something you have to put a lot of hours of practice in to master.

But you can run forward faster than somebody with the same speed can run backwards.

If you're a regular boxer with negligible wrestling experience -- and a regular wrestler with negligible boxing experience -- the wrestler sill has the advantage. The most inept boxer can work his way into a clinch. Even Lomachenko gets grabbed at times. Then you grab the head with your left, hook your right arm under the armpit to the elbow, and flip the boxer down on his back. Alternatively you can drop both hands to the legs, lift and bull him down. When it goes to the ground it's over. The thing is, Inoki was not allowed to wrestle. He was allowed to kick Ali's legs. That's how he inflicted 100 X the punishment.

OK, why not . . . Strangler Lewis' people chased after Kearns and Dempsey for years . . . with claims and counter-claims the article below sounds an awful lot like the Ali-Chamberlain negotiations; nothing seems to change but the date. (interesting note: Lewis was willing to let Dempsey fight without gloves and wrestle.)

I don't think Dempsey particularly liked the contest... He could make a lot more in boxing matches, and in exhibitions, than Lewis offered him... Plus Jack got his ass handed to him earlier in his career by a wrestler - and talked about the experience in one of his bios: "Dempsey" ...

Kearns thought Dempsey could beat anybody... He even bet on him heavily to beat Tunney and damned near went broke.

I interviewed Chuck Wepner years back on the radio and asked him point blank about the Andre contest and he said it was 100% fake. Sorry Kalan.

As for Chamberlain vs Ali, it's one of my favorite topics, primarily because Cus D'Amato was involved and he insisted that Chamberlain won every "test bout" staged behind closed doors. That he was a credible threat.

But we'll never know, cus far as I know of NOBODY has come forth over the years to confirm what Cus said transpired. No boxer has come forward and admitted, "Yeah Wilt kicked my ass."

Yeah they did... But Terrell and Patterson were about the only 2 Heavyweight Champions Cus could bring into the mix... But Chamberlain had to take it real easy against them as well, even though they were elite boxers.. They both knew that if Chamberlain let the punches fly, it would be over for them.. Patterson had already been drilled twice by Sonny Liston -- a moderately big guy... He joked that if Chamberlain ever became a boxer he'd quit and play basketball..

The 16 oz sparring gloves looked like regulation 10 oz boxing gloves on Chamberlain's massive fists.. With his 101 inch reach his left jab and straight right fired into the chest area felt like telephone poles knocking you back.. His feet were exceptionally quick and his balance superb, so if you tried to duck under and get inside on him those hooks and uppercuts would chop you up.

And that's Wepner being defensive.. He's not going to admit that a big fat slow wrestler with arthritic knees, who could pick him up like a coat, beat him.

Even you should be able to figure out Ali vs Inoki wasn't fake... Ali got his legs kicked to death so bad he had to be hospitalized... Inoki didn't have a single mark on his face or body from the "combat." ... That wasn't a fight dude... Because Ali did nothing but stand around posing as he was battered by kicks.

Kalan wrote:Sonny Liston -- a moderately big guy...

Kalan -- a moderately dumb guy...

hhaehre: An ignorant troll who understands facts as easily as Mick Jagger looks clean cut and handsome, and whose only argument is flinging insults.

Kalan......

Part of Wilt's problem....IF he ever had any promise in the squared circle....is that all he wanted was the very best moment.....which was either a glorious championship moment.....or a fairly well advertised beating (Trust me...that's the ticket).

So he's a putz (on this subject) either way. WAY too greedy for the brass ring that he was willing to do virtually nothing for.

Just admit that it was nothing but a promo gag.......

He probably wanted to win the NASCAR Daytona 500 championship as well...but let's face it....they would have had to have put him in a convertible , and his winning smile would have been ruined by all the bugs in his grill. (Or he possibly could have driven the Popemobile to glory I suppose. Protecting that winning smile.)

No pain no gain......and he certainly did everything on earth that a man could do, to avoid the pain of pugilism, and the "agony of defeat".

And that's simply not the Marcus of Queensbury way.

Now...I hope we've settled this little dispute......Thanks....and have a very good day.

hhaehre wrote:

Kalan wrote:Sonny Liston -- a moderately big guy...

Kalan -- a moderately dumb guy...

Kalan....a moderate?

yeah,I remember reading about that proposed match with Dempsey and "Strangler Lewis"
in a 1970 issue of Sports Illustrated (from a stack of magazines in a barbershop in 1984).
here is the link to it.

https://www.si.com/vault/1970/08/03/610 ... the-mauler#

Not this nonsense again. Just a few questions that can't be answered.

1) No contract can be seen in that video, Chamberlain only pulls a pen out.

2) If Chamberlain was serious about being HW champ why didn't he challenge Frazier instead or even have a few pro fights? By beating Frazier he would've guaranteed a title defence against Ali and for a lot more money too.

3) If Chamberlain only wanted to fight Ali for the title how come their press conference was after Ali lost and the poster advertising a potential fight was circulated after Ali lost?

4) When in the history of boxing has a complete novice with zero boxing experience been able to fight for the HW title in his debut?

Kalan wrote:hhaehre: An ignorant troll who understands facts as easily as Mick Jagger looks clean cut and handsome, and whose only argument is flinging insults.

Jagger not handsome? Are you suggesting that you pulled more women than Jagger, it that what you're saying?
I actually think Jagger out-fucked Wilt

Controversial wrote:Not this nonsense again. Just a few questions that can't be answered.

1) No contract can be seen in that video, Chamberlain only pulls a pen out.

2) If Chamberlain was serious about being HW champ why didn't he challenge Frazier instead or even have a few pro fights? By beating Frazier he would've guaranteed a title defence against Ali and for a lot more money too.

3) If Chamberlain only wanted to fight Ali for the title how come their press conference was after Ali lost and the poster advertising a potential fight was circulated after Ali lost?

4) When in the history of boxing has a complete novice with zero boxing experience been able to fight for the HW title in his debut?

That video where Chamberlain asked when Ali intended to sign the contract was made during the buildup for the 1967 fight...

Chamberlain knew after that drawn out 1966-1967 episode that he was being played for publicity -- and Ali had no intention of ever fighting him... He signed another contract in 1971 that was contingent on Ali beating Frazier -- because Chamberlain was interested in being Heavyweight Champion and Chamberlain-Ali was box-office magic and everyone knew it.. But Ali never signed the contingency contract and Chamberlain was already 99.999 percent positive he wouldn't.. But there's always that .0001 percent and that's why you buy a lottery ticket.. Even after Ali lost to Frazier, Ali said that if the sky fell and Ali signed to fight him he'd do it.. But he was done signing contracts and "bring me something Ali signed" basically because he knew Ali wouldn't.

We all know that Boxing is a business and not a sport.. And it isn't good business to get knocked stiff by the world's greatest athlete, who can score 100 points in an NBA game -- not because Chamberlain was the most skillful shooter, but because he was a matchless athlete -- even with a whole team hanging on him in the 4th quarter to stop him.. No other man in History ever came close to doing that.. Chamberlain spent a lot of time setting the Ali fight up -- but he knew it was going nowhere without Ali.. Starting all over with Frazier made so sense.. Frazier wasn't Ali and it wouldn't drive the interest.

Would McGregor fight Thurman or Spence??? ... Of course not.

BoxBuzz wrote:No pain no gain and he certainly did everything on earth that a man could do, to avoid the pain of pugilism, and the "agony of defeat". And that's simply not the Marcus of Queensbury way

BuzzBox... Why don't you do something simple like assemble tinker toys...before trying something harder like putting cohesive thoughts together???

Caractacus wrote:yeah,I remember reading about that proposed match with Dempsey and "Strangler Lewis"
in a 1970 issue of Sports Illustrated (from a stack of magazines in a barbershop in 1984).
here is the link to it.

https://www.si.com/vault/1970/08/03/610 ... the-mauler#

Controversial wrote:
4) When in the history of boxing has a complete novice with zero boxing experience been able to fight for the HW title in his debut?

Oh, something like that probably did actually happen, in the 1740s or such, but not in the the last 150 years that's for sure, we got records to prove it.

It's funny Strangler Lewis, Dempsey, Tunney, Andre the Giant, Wepner, Ali, Inoki, McGregor, Frazier, Thurman, Spence, Terrell, Patterson, Liston, Lomachenko, Mildenberger, Foreman, Tyson, Spinks and Floyd have all been brought up in this thread as every single one of them would have whooped up on Kalan's man crush.

Heck, even Mick Jagger may have taken Wilt out; did you see how athletic he was in Dancing in the Streets?

Show me where Patterson or Terrell ever said they sparred Chamberlain, and that he was dominating them? I've never seen that, and even if it does exist I have to wonder whether or not Patterson said it out of loyalty to Cus D'Amato or not.

ALSO... I used to be in the rasslin' business... I know a fake fight from a real one when I see it... Wepner-Andre was indeed a fake... Besides I also asked Wepner about his "fight" with Inoki and he said it was also fake, as it ended with a cartwheel kick and a Boston crab leg lock.

Kalan wrote:

Controversial wrote:Not this nonsense again. Just a few questions that can't be answered.

1) No contract can be seen in that video, Chamberlain only pulls a pen out.

2) If Chamberlain was serious about being HW champ why didn't he challenge Frazier instead or even have a few pro fights? By beating Frazier he would've guaranteed a title defence against Ali and for a lot more money too.

3) If Chamberlain only wanted to fight Ali for the title how come their press conference was after Ali lost and the poster advertising a potential fight was circulated after Ali lost?

4) When in the history of boxing has a complete novice with zero boxing experience been able to fight for the HW title in his debut?

That video where Chamberlain asked when Ali intended to sign the contract was made during the buildup for the 1967 fight...

Chamberlain knew after that drawn out 1966-1967 episode that he was being played for publicity -- and Ali had no intention of ever fighting him... He signed another contract in 1971 that was contingent on Ali beating Frazier -- because Chamberlain was interested in being Heavyweight Champion and Chamberlain-Ali was box-office magic and everyone knew it.. But Ali never signed the contingency contract and Chamberlain was already 99.999 percent positive he wouldn't.. But there's always that .0001 percent and that's why you buy a lottery ticket.. Even after Ali lost to Frazier, Ali said that if the sky fell and Ali signed to fight him he'd do it.. But he was done signing contracts and "bring me something Ali signed" basically because he knew Ali wouldn't.

We all know that Boxing is a business and not a sport.. And it isn't good business to get knocked stiff by the world's greatest athlete, who can score 100 points in an NBA game -- not because Chamberlain was the most skillful shooter, but because he was a matchless athlete -- even with a whole team hanging on him in the 4th quarter to stop him.. No other man in History ever came close to doing that.. Chamberlain spent a lot of time setting the Ali fight up -- but he knew it was going nowhere without Ali.. Starting all over with Frazier made so sense.. Frazier wasn't Ali and it wouldn't drive the interest.

Would McGregor fight Thurman or Spence??? ... Of course not.

How do you know there was a contract, where is the evidence?

If he was so interested in being HW champ then why did he never turn pro. Or if he was just throwing challenges around he would challenge whoever was HW champ. As you say boxing is a business so if Chamberlain was the great fighter you think he was he would've easily whupped Frazier and fulfilled his dream. Then he would have been 'the man' and able to defend against Ali for 10x the money.

And McGregor isn't fighting for a title, purely for the money (the same as Mayweahter) unlike Chamberlain who "dreamed of being HW champ."

And McGregor is a fighter not a basketball player. He is also fighting a 40 year old who hasn't boxed for two years, not someone in his prime. He too will also get whupped.