BoxRec

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ValMar wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:At this point, he might not be in the top 30.

I mean at CW, not p4p.........

I know. P4P he wouldn't be top 1,000.

Saad, you are not realistic about Usyk. Do you dislike him because of his style ? I suppose and hope that his origin is not the reason for your attitude.

Lackeos wrote:

PsychoGamerTwo wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:You f*cking people can't wait to start talking about people's standing in the all time rankings. Let them have a career in their own time first for f*cks sake. Usyk's barely even started. His all time ranking doesn't mean d*ck at the moment, he still needs to establish how good he is or isn't in the here and now.

IMO, Buatsi is a LHW ATG. He just didn't prove it yet.

I can't believe you just said this sh*t. Never say something this stupid again.

Think he's caught you there mate

ValMar wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ValMar wrote:
I mean at CW, not p4p.........

I know. P4P he wouldn't be top 1,000.

Saad, you are not realistic about Usyk. Do you dislike him because of his style ? I suppose and hope that his origin is not the reason for your attitude.

LOL, he hasn't done anything yet. I'm pretty indifferent to him at this point. I certainly don't dislike him. As for your ridiculous accusation, I won't even dignify that with a reply.

No not all time top 5 CW guy has potential though still long way to go . By the way what is your list of top 5 CW?

ValMar wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

ValMar wrote:
Gilgamesh, I agree with you about #1. Neglect Usyk this time, but where is David Haye ? Please, do not understand this personally, but any list without David Haye is very questionable.

He's #6

No, he is #2, definitely.

I disagree

Actually, since it's probably just a cultural misunderstanding and I'm bored, I'll give you the Saad breakdown since you want to know.

I'm a 48 year old white man of German/Irish heritage that lives in Texas. The fighters I had emotional ties to, Hearns, Saad Muhammad, Morales, Howard Davis, Trinidad, Holyfield, Gushiken etc.., are long retired. Guys I hated with emotion, Leonard, Tyson, MAB, etc., are all retired. I still love the sport but I just can't have the same ties to fighters that I did growing up with them.

Recent favorites are GGG, Kovalev, Spence, Paul Williams, Chad Dawson, Gonzalez, Froch, Lara, etc...

As you can see, the least represented ethnicity on my lists are my own. I have many flaws, anything to do with that is the furthest thing from one of them.

Historically rating fighters, the very last thing I would use is my opinion of whom would win a bout. I'm wrong all the time, just not a tangible measurement of a career unless it comes down to a tiebreaker. I consider Usyk the slight favorite in the upcoming tournament, but he hasn't done enough to be considered in any historical discussion. Top 30 is probably generous, he might not be top 50.

ValMar wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ValMar wrote:
I mean at CW, not p4p.........

I know. P4P he wouldn't be top 1,000.

Saad, you are not realistic about Usyk. Do you dislike him because of his style ? I suppose and hope that his origin is not the reason for your attitude.

It's not outside the realm of plausibility that Usyk is not a top 1000 p4p all-time boxer. Usyk is ranked #14 p4p right now on boxrec. He's probably the #40 p4p boxer of the past 10-year era, incorporating various fighters who have previously broached the top 10 charts but aren't there currently (e.g. Froch, Bradley, Cotto, Mayweather). There's been about 13 eras of that duration in boxing's history, though not all equally good. Fuzzy math suggests that Usyk may be somewhere around #520 p4p all-time. Probably inside the top 1000, but given the shakiness of these estimations... still easily a 5-10% chance that he's not.
(Had to make a major edit because I miscalculated the amount of decades in boxing's history)

I should point out that Usyk has not currently accomplished anything as a professional that 2005-era Jean Marc Mormeck has not also accomplished. Both of them undefeated, Mormeck with 2 belts, Usyk with 1 belt, Mormeck with 37 wins, Usyk with 12 wins. I'll list each fighter's top 5 wins (excluding opponents Mormeck beat after 2005) by boxrec rating and you tell me which is which.
Fighter A: 428, 97, 90, 81, 73
Fighter B: 431, 234, 181, 161, 103

gilgamesh wrote:

ValMar wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
He's #6

No, he is #2, definitely.

I disagree

I would think that Glowacki would have to be top 10 for anyone rating Usyk top 5.

Looking at BoxRec's all-time CW rankings, which guys beneath him (he's at #22) would you rate above him? Seems like there would be an awful lot of questionable calls to get him out of the top 50..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _champions

I don't study this division deeply, and I don't know the state of career when every boxer hit CW but I can list 5 that I would rate above Usyk so far.
I do think Usyk is a special fighter and we are just beginning to see the best of him it's just that ain't an all time great yet.

1-Holyfield
2.-Lebedev
3-Guillmero Jones
4-Cunningham
5-Jirov

big names that have been there Adamek, Haye, Virgil Hill, Michalczewski to name a few

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Actually, since it's probably just a cultural misunderstanding and I'm bored, I'll give you the Saad breakdown since you want to know.

I'm a 48 year old white man of German/Irish heritage that lives in Texas. The fighters I had emotional ties to, Hearns, Saad Muhammad, Morales, Howard Davis, Trinidad, Holyfield, Gushiken etc.., are long retired. Guys I hated with emotion, Leonard, Tyson, MAB, etc., are all retired. I still love the sport but I just can't have the same ties to fighters that I did growing up with them.

Recent favorites are GGG, Kovalev, Spence, Paul Williams, Chad Dawson, Gonzalez, Froch, Lara, etc...

As you can see, the least represented ethnicity on my lists are my own. I have many flaws, anything to do with that is the furthest thing from one of them.

Historically rating fighters, the very last thing I would use is my opinion of whom would win a bout. I'm wrong all the time, just not a tangible measurement of a career unless it comes down to a tiebreaker. I consider Usyk the slight favorite in the upcoming tournament, but he hasn't done enough to be considered in any historical discussion. Top 30 is probably generous, he might not be top 50.

Interesting list of fighters

Were your dislikes of Barrera and Leonard born out of there rivalry with Hearns and morales etc?

crusader wrote:Looking at BoxRec's all-time CW rankings, which guys beneath him (he's at #22) would you rate above him?

A reasonable question, but let's not forget that a lot of ATG cruiserweights are ranked by boxrec as heavyweights. There is no Qawi, Holyfield, Toney, Adamek, Haye, etc. anywhere in those rankings.

True, but there's about 30 spots between where he's ranked now and outside the top 50. They've also got Danny Green and Mundine ranked ahead of him at cruiser

crusader wrote:Looking at BoxRec's all-time CW rankings, which guys beneath him (he's at #22) would you rate above him? Seems like there would be an awful lot of questionable calls to get him out of the top 50..

Perhaps, I really wasn't planning on spending the next 8 hours grinding out an alltime top 50 at Cruiser. He has 2 very solid wins and 1 decent one. I can't imagine that would leave him too high up there. The alltime rankings here are terrible, there also is bound to be a bunch of guys listed in different divisions. He rates above the boxrec #1 on my list though, much more accomplished than RJJ!

Ossyrules wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Actually, since it's probably just a cultural misunderstanding and I'm bored, I'll give you the Saad breakdown since you want to know.

I'm a 48 year old white man of German/Irish heritage that lives in Texas. The fighters I had emotional ties to, Hearns, Saad Muhammad, Morales, Howard Davis, Trinidad, Holyfield, Gushiken etc.., are long retired. Guys I hated with emotion, Leonard, Tyson, MAB, etc., are all retired. I still love the sport but I just can't have the same ties to fighters that I did growing up with them.

Recent favorites are GGG, Kovalev, Spence, Paul Williams, Chad Dawson, Gonzalez, Froch, Lara, etc...

As you can see, the least represented ethnicity on my lists are my own. I have many flaws, anything to do with that is the furthest thing from one of them.

Historically rating fighters, the very last thing I would use is my opinion of whom would win a bout. I'm wrong all the time, just not a tangible measurement of a career unless it comes down to a tiebreaker. I consider Usyk the slight favorite in the upcoming tournament, but he hasn't done enough to be considered in any historical discussion. Top 30 is probably generous, he might not be top 50.

Interesting list of fighters

Were your dislikes of Barrera and Leonard born out of there rivalry with Hearns and morales etc?

Hearns, Duran and benitez were all favorites of mine, oddly he was born in the same state that I was and the 76 Olympics was huge in Boxing becoming my favorite sport. MAB was the Morales rivalry(I also was a Junior Jones fan, liked McKinney too) though I mellowed on him through the years. Chavez was way above him on the hate meter.

If you find it an interesting batch, here is a dusty old shitty blog with the reasoning behind it.

http://theboxingbulletin.blogspot.com/2 ... earns.html

If Usyk wins this tournament, there would be strong argument that he's the best CW of all time. The accomplishment would be worthy. But.... then the true test would be how well he does at HW, because the best CWs have risen up and taken on the HW champ. Going to be an interesting watch. He's got the talent to do so.

For the record this was TTR's list for Top 10 Cruiserweights. The list was compiled sometime in 2013.

1- Evander Holyfield
2- Carlos De Leon
3- Juan Carlos Gomez
4- Johnny Nelson
5- David Haye
6- James Toney
7- Al Cole
8- Vassiliy Jirov
9- Dwight Muhammad Qawi
10- Jean-Marc Mormeck

Holyfield was unanimously voted #1.

gilgamesh wrote:For the record this was TTR's list for Top 10 Cruiserweights. The list was compiled sometime in 2013.

1- Evander Holyfield
2- Carlos De Leon
3- Juan Carlos Gomez
4- Johnny Nelson
5- David Haye
6- James Toney
7- Al Cole
8- Vassiliy Jirov
9- Dwight Muhammad Qawi
10- Jean-Marc Mormeck

Holyfield was unanimously voted #1.

As he should be forever.

I think, one more title defense and he'll crack the top 10. But then, progress up that top 10 will be slow.

Personally I limit this kind of thinking to my own lifetime, i.e. the past 40 years. Within that time frame, I think there are about a half dozen fighters who are top 5 at the weight they're still fighting at. Wladimir Klitschko's a top 5 heavyweight. Gennady Golovkin's a top 5 middleweight. Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao are both top 5 welterweights. (And Shane Mosley is too -- I guess he's still active.) Guillermo Rigondeaux is a top 5 super bantamweight. Shinsuke Yamanaka is a top 5 bantamweight. That's it.

gilgamesh wrote:For the record this was TTR's list for Top 10 Cruiserweights. The list was compiled sometime in 2013.

1- Evander Holyfield
2- Carlos De Leon
3- Juan Carlos Gomez
4- Johnny Nelson
5- David Haye
6- James Toney
7- Al Cole
8- Vassiliy Jirov
9- Dwight Muhammad Qawi
10- Jean-Marc Mormeck

Holyfield was unanimously voted #1.

Not a very inspiring list. Won't take long for Usyk to leap to #2, especially considering the tournament. The accomplishments of almost the entire list is incredibly overrated.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ValMar wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
I know. P4P he wouldn't be top 1,000.

Saad, you are not realistic about Usyk. Do you dislike him because of his style ? I suppose and hope that his origin is not the reason for your attitude.

LOL, he hasn't done anything yet. I'm pretty indifferent to him at this point. I certainly don't dislike him. As for your ridiculous accusation, I won't even dignify that with a reply.

Saad, I did not accuse you. I wrote : I suppose and I hope.............

Blodhemn wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:For the record this was TTR's list for Top 10 Cruiserweights. The list was compiled sometime in 2013.

1- Evander Holyfield
2- Carlos De Leon
3- Juan Carlos Gomez
4- Johnny Nelson
5- David Haye
6- James Toney
7- Al Cole
8- Vassiliy Jirov
9- Dwight Muhammad Qawi
10- Jean-Marc Mormeck

Holyfield was unanimously voted #1.

Not a very inspiring list. Won't take long for Usyk to leap to #2, especially considering the tournament. The accomplishments of almost the entire list is incredibly overrated.

You are right. I don't think that, let us say, Toney had more than 10 fights at CW. I don't want to use Google, again....Maybe, I am wrong....

boxrec ranks USYK #22 all time @ 200 pounds---if he wins this tournament he will move up nicely !

ValMar wrote: You are right. I don't think that, let us say, Toney had more than 10 fights at CW. I don't want to use Google, again....Maybe, I am wrong....

Nah, very few fights and in probably the worst CW era at that. Ranking CWs based on CW merit is hardly inspiring. The tournament winner alone is going to be more accomplished competition wise than most on that top 10 list. But as I said, ranking the fighter as a whole will depend on success at HW, cos that's where it leads.