BoxRec

ElJefe wrote:Is Holyfield the clearest #1 of all time in any division in boxing? He's got to be up there.

Moorer, a former Light Heavyweight Champion, beat Holyfield... Byrd easily outboxed Holyfield... Toney beat the crap out Holy and stopped him because Evander's inside defense was a little weak. Toney had a picnic in there with Evander.. All those guys were basically Cruiserweights... Larry Donald was a smaller Heavyweight too, little more than a Cruiserweight... He had no chance against Vitali Klitschko, but he boxed the Hell out of Holyfield.

Kirk Johnson boxed Larry Donald with very good pressure and a very nice jab.. He used his Heavyweight strength better than Holyfield.. That's the way I thought Holyfield would fight Donald because Evander's a strong man for his size.. He just didn't have the jab to get on Donald.

Byrd was basically a Cruiserweight who had no business fighting guys like Ibeabuchi and Wladimir.. Byrd moved around in too many divisions and screwed up his career by fighting Heavyweights.. If he stuck with Cruiserweight he may have been the The best ever.. But the best Cruiserweights so far have been Haye, Usyk, and Toney... Evander never had the speed or jab that Haye and Usyk have, or the inside game of Toney.

Holyfield only had 4 defenses of his Cruiserweight Title and the division was brand new and really weak... It's more established now.

Never did the cw division look as strong as today.

Kalan wrote:

ElJefe wrote:Is Holyfield the clearest #1 of all time in any division in boxing? He's got to be up there.

Moorer, a former Light Heavyweight Champion, beat Holyfield... Byrd easily outboxed Holyfield... Toney beat the crap out Holy and stopped him because Evander's inside defense was a little weak. Toney had a picnic in there with Evander.. All those guys were basically Cruiserweights... Larry Donald was a smaller Heavyweight too, little more than a Cruiserweight... He had no chance against Vitali Klitschko, but he boxed the Hell out of Holyfield.

Kirk Johnson boxed Larry Donald with very good pressure and a very nice jab.. He used his Heavyweight strength better than Holyfield.. That's the way I thought Holyfield would fight Donald because Evander's a strong man for his size.. He just didn't have the jab to get on Donald.

Byrd was basically a Cruiserweight who had no business fighting guys like Ibeabuchi and Wladimir.. Byrd moved around in too many divisions and screwed up his career by fighting Heavyweights.. If he stuck with Cruiserweight he may have been the The best ever.. But the best Cruiserweights so far have been Haye, Usyk, and Toney... Evander never had the speed or jab that Haye and Usyk have, or the inside game of Toney.

Holyfield only had 4 defenses of his Cruiserweight Title and the division was brand new and really weak... It's more established now.

Blatantly skewed "evidence" that you use to "support" you argument. With the exception of the loss to Moorer in 1994 (which Evander avenged with a KO in 1997) ALL of the losses you mention above came after Holyfield was totally washed up by AGE 40 AND BEYOND. The 3 debacles with laughable loser John Ruiz are evidence that Evander had nothing left after the 2 losses to Lewis, which took a lot out of him.

Holyfield was totally shot by the time he faced Byrd, Toney, Donald and he was already OVER 40 when he had those losses.

For a fighter who took as many shots as his strong chin allowed him to, Evander should have retired well BEFORE he hit the BIG 4-0!! He thoroughly embarrassed himself after that point.

But Evander didn't look good in his prime with those losses to the chinny Moorer and the supremely hittable Bowe... They shouldn't beat anyone good.

Toney and Haye had losses too, but not because their skills were lacking... Usyk hasn't shown any vulnerabilities so far, and he doesn't seem to have any.

Kalan wrote:Usyk hasn't shown any vulnerabilities so far, and he doesn't seem to have any.

He hasn't faced anybody good. If he wins this tournament, I will jump on his bandwagon.

Kalan wrote:But Evander didn't look good in his prime with those losses to the chinny Moorer and the supremely hittable Bowe... They shouldn't beat anyone good.

Toney and Haye had losses too, but not because their skills were lacking... Usyk hasn't shown any vulnerabilities so far, and he doesn't seem to have any.

MAYBE we can put Usyk on Evander Holyfield's level as a Cruiserweight IF he EVER beats a legitimate HALL-OF-FAMER like Dwight Muhammad Qawi, who Evander won the CW title from in HOLYFIELD's 12TH PRO FIGHT. Their 15-ROUND WAR is still considered one of the all-time classic wars in boxing history.

After unifying the Cruiser title, Holyfield defended his unified CW crown with a dominant 5th-round KO of Qawi.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/induct ... /qawi.html

Jip wrote:Never did the cw division look as strong as today.

Today's cruisers have a depth the division didnt have in the 1980s but NONE of today's cruisers (with the possible exception of Usyk himself) has a remote shot at making the International Boxing Hall of Fame like the all-time great that Holyfield won the Cruiser world title from: Dwight Muhammad Qawi. Their 15-round war is still considered an all-time classic and it was only Evander's 12th pro fight!!

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/induct ... /qawi.html

Make sure you watch videos of both Holyfield wins over Qawi (the rematch by KO4) before you continue spewing your emo nonsense about Usyk being the "best cruiserweight ever." That will give you some sorely needed historical perspective.

gilgamesh wrote:

Jip wrote:
Haha 2001....you a newbie hahaha....oh lord have mercy...2001

I've watched as intently as just about anybody would or could during that time, and have an extensive Boxing film collection of fights and fighters from well before my time.

I'm only 30. Everybody starts watching at some point. I've been watching for over half of my life.

Jip's been watching boxing for nearly fifteen years. His mother's womb had umbilical which is a bit like cable.

boxing_rocks wrote:

Kalan wrote:Usyk hasn't shown any vulnerabilities so far, and he doesn't seem to have any.

He hasn't faced anybody good. If he wins this tournament, I will jump on his bandwagon.

I was very impressed by how he handled the very much bigger Joe Joyce. Joyce isn't the fastest, and couldn't compete in terms of technique, but he is no mug. Usyk was right in front of him but Joe could hardly land a glove on him. I expect him to win the tournament.

candyslim wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

Jip wrote:
Haha 2001....you a newbie hahaha....oh lord have mercy...2001

I've watched as intently as just about anybody would or could during that time, and have an extensive Boxing film collection of fights and fighters from well before my time.

I'm only 30. Everybody starts watching at some point. I've been watching for over half of my life.

Jip's been watching boxing for nearly fifteen years. His mother's womb had umbilical which is a bit like cable.

Good one!!

The emotion-driven premise behind this ridiculous thread shows that no matter HOW long you have watched boxing, there is no age limit on being shallow and superficial. Usyk is very good and could turn out to be great, but to call him the "best ever" based on the very limited competition he has faced so far is laughable.

It is when you've been around a while and your opinion isn't driven by the exuberance of youth.

Best Coast wrote:

candyslim wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
I've watched as intently as just about anybody would or could during that time, and have an extensive Boxing film collection of fights and fighters from well before my time.

I'm only 30. Everybody starts watching at some point. I've been watching for over half of my life.

Jip's been watching boxing for nearly fifteen years. His mother's womb had umbilical which is a bit like cable.

Good one!!

The emotion-driven premise behind this ridiculous thread shows that no matter HOW long you have watched boxing, there is no age limit on being shallow and superficial. Usyk is very good and could turn out to be great, but to call him the "best ever" based on the very limited competition he has faced so far is laughable.

Yeah you become amateur world champion, olympic gold medalist and #1 ranked pro in your division by fighting limited competition, you nailed it.

What did haye do to be considered #2?

Losing to thompson, boxing c level in maccarenelli, fragomeni, one b level in mormeck. Good career but not very impressiv.

What did holyfield do to be considered #1?

Boxing lots of nobodys like pikey, fighting a small gnom in qawi. Qawi and de leon where very good, but not super impressiv either. So holyfield beat 2 good cw in a back than weak cw division and therefore he must be #1?

What did usyk do to be considered #1?

In only 13 fights holyfield did nothing but defeating taxi drivers (except qawi). In the same amount of fights usyk has been defeating back than #1 ranked cw in glowacki, top 15 mchunu and ex champion huck. And is on his way cleaning out the cruiserweight division which has never looked with deeper talent pool than today. Record aside, as a boxer usyks skills and physical atributes look slightly better than holyfield. Its no knock on evander, elite chin, elite footwork, overall elite, i just think usyk is a bit better.

You can tell OP just recently started watching boxing. He's now in the stage where he realizes there are other guys worth watching besides the big names most casuals know. A little quick to jump on a bandwagon just so he can say "I called it guys"..

boxing_rocks wrote:

Kalan wrote:Usyk hasn't shown any vulnerabilities so far, and he doesn't seem to have any.

He hasn't faced anybody good. If he wins this tournament, I will jump on his bandwagon.

Screw that... Look at all the HOFer Americans with numerous losses on their records... An Eastern European gets one highly disputed, corrupt loss and that will be the excuse to shelve him for the rest of his career.. Holyfield's record is riddled with losses and he got to fight everyone when he wanted to fight them -- except Mike Tyson -- who took his sweet time fighting Holyfield or Lewis because he wasn't going to beat them.

The thing with cruiser is that it lacks historical depth, so it doesn't take as much to enter ATG discussions; just look at all the people who put Haye #2 when his top 3 wins there include Enzo Mac and Giacobbe Fragomeni (who actually gave Haye a tough night). Holyfield was a very special fighter though and the guy he beat for the cruiser title was very good too. Watching some footage of Holy at cruiser, IMO it's clear that he's on another level to anyone who has boxed at the weight since he left for HW; he had every tool imaginable and didn't lack size like he did at points during his HW career.

I do think the division is fairly strong today, and this tournament is a great opportunity for someone to build a resume that gives them credibility as being the top guy after Holy.

crusader wrote:The thing with cruiser is that it lacks historical depth, so it doesn't take as much to enter ATG discussions; just look at all the people who put Haye #2 when his top 3 wins there include Enzo Mac and Giacobbe Fragomeni (who actually gave Haye a tough night). Holyfield was a very special fighter though and the guy he beat for the cruiser title was very good too. Watching some footage of Holy at cruiser, IMO it's clear that he's on another level to anyone who has boxed at the weight since he left for HW; he had every tool imaginable and didn't lack size like he did at points during his HW career.

I do think the division is fairly strong today, and this tournament is a great opportunity for someone to build a resume that gives them credibility as being the top guy after Holy.

spot on. Holyfield being slow and predictable at the weight is atg nonsense.

Personally, I have been thinking more than 15 years about this : Would Holyfield have been the best boxer ever if he had stayed at CW until retirement (let us say about 1999) ? Anyway, he wasted almost everything he had earned.....

ValMar wrote:Personally, I have been thinking more than 15 years about this : Would Holyfield have been the best boxer ever if he had stayed at CW until retirement (let us say about 1999) ? Anyway, he wasted almost everything he had earned.....

Part of his being The Greatest Cruiserweight ever is the fact that he moved up and accomplished so much as a Heavyweight afterward. He'd have never made anywhere near as much money if he hadn't moved up to Heavyweight, and his legacy wouldn't be half what it is.

I personally think he's one of the ATG Heavyweights as well. Top 10 for sure. No other former Cruiserweight Champion comes anywhere near that.

gilgamesh wrote:

ValMar wrote:Personally, I have been thinking more than 15 years about this : Would Holyfield have been the best boxer ever if he had stayed at CW until retirement (let us say about 1999) ? Anyway, he wasted almost everything he had earned.....

Part of his being The Greatest Cruiserweight ever is the fact that he moved up and accomplished so much as a Heavyweight afterward. He'd have never made anywhere near as much money if he hadn't moved up to Heavyweight, and his legacy wouldn't be half what it is.

I personally think he's one of the ATG Heavyweights as well. Top 10 for sure. No other former Cruiserweight Champion comes anywhere near that.

....He spent almost everything he had earned (mainly at HW)........
Glory and money are at HW, CW is something like poor cousin.....

Kalan wrote:

ElJefe wrote:Is Holyfield the clearest #1 of all time in any division in boxing? He's got to be up there.

Moorer, a former Light Heavyweight Champion, beat Holyfield... Byrd easily outboxed Holyfield... Toney beat the crap out Holy and stopped him because Evander's inside defense was a little weak. Toney had a picnic in there with Evander.. All those guys were basically Cruiserweights... Larry Donald was a smaller Heavyweight too, little more than a Cruiserweight... He had no chance against Vitali Klitschko, but he boxed the Hell out of Holyfield.

Kirk Johnson boxed Larry Donald with very good pressure and a very nice jab.. He used his Heavyweight strength better than Holyfield.. That's the way I thought Holyfield would fight Donald because Evander's a strong man for his size.. He just didn't have the jab to get on Donald.

Byrd was basically a Cruiserweight who had no business fighting guys like Ibeabuchi and Wladimir.. Byrd moved around in too many divisions and screwed up his career by fighting Heavyweights.. If he stuck with Cruiserweight he may have been the The best ever.. But the best Cruiserweights so far have been Haye, Usyk, and Toney... Evander never had the speed or jab that Haye and Usyk have, or the inside game of Toney.

Holyfield only had 4 defenses of his Cruiserweight Title and the division was brand new and really weak... It's more established now.

For god sake kalan, been reading boxrec records again to make an arguement.

Technically as ever you are right, Toney battered holy. However I suggest you actually watch the fight and tell me if holy isn't 100% finished as a force.

The hittable bowe is a good one, aka the ring magazine number 1 for a good section of the 90s, and hand responsible for one of the greatest top flight heavyweight trilogies ever

Larry Donald etc, ffs do me a favour

ValMar wrote:
....He spent almost everything he had earned (mainly at HW)........
Glory and money are at HW, CW is something like poor cousin.....

That happens when you have a lot of kids by a lot of women. A huge reason why I don't want kids.

Ossyrules wrote:
For god sake kalan, been reading boxrec records again to make an arguement.

Technically as ever you are right, Toney battered holy. However I suggest you actually watch the fight and tell me if holy isn't 100% finished as a force.

The hittable bowe is a good one, aka the ring magazine number 1 for a good section of the 90s, and hand responsible for one of the greatest top flight heavyweight trilogies ever

Larry Donald etc, ffs do me a favour

Kalan has to be a teenager. He simply CANNOT understand that fighters age and aren't forever in their prime.

He probably thinks William Joppy is a better fighter than Roberto Duran because he beat Duran. That's the kinda level Kalan is operating on.

gilgamesh wrote:

ValMar wrote:
....He spent almost everything he had earned (mainly at HW)........
Glory and money are at HW, CW is something like poor cousin.....

That happens when you have a lot of kids by a lot of women. A huge reason why I don't want kids.

I suppose he had sex with so many women, likely hundreds.....Lucky Evander.....

gilgamesh wrote:

Ossyrules wrote:
For god sake kalan, been reading boxrec records again to make an arguement.

Technically as ever you are right, Toney battered holy. However I suggest you actually watch the fight and tell me if holy isn't 100% finished as a force.

The hittable bowe is a good one, aka the ring magazine number 1 for a good section of the 90s, and hand responsible for one of the greatest top flight heavyweight trilogies ever

Larry Donald etc, ffs do me a favour

Kalan has to be a teenager. He simply CANNOT understand that fighters age and aren't forever in their prime.

He probably thinks William Joppy is a better fighter than Roberto Duran because he beat Duran. That's the kinda level Kalan is operating on.

Kalan is clearly a troll. Nobody has such ridiculous opinions in real life.