Luis Ortiz vs. Dillian Whyte (WBC final eliminator)

[oogiebe]

I did read the whole post, and I enjoyed reading your rationale. If I take the opposite side here: Whyte is ready for another shot. The issue in this whole scenario is Wilder/Joshua. Most want to see this fight so badly that we just don't give the proper kudos and acknowledge Whyte's ability to fight. IMHO, he has earned another shot and the very least, shouldn't be FORCED to fight anyone, especially as a non-champion. I don't mind reading long stuff when it's sensible and yours' was just that. I may disagree with some of it, but I cannot knock any of it.

Some short point:
1 - Molina should no longer be considered a contender. He is a journeyman now and a great test for younger and up and comers.
2 - Whyte is as good or better than most in staking a claim to a shot at either champion. (don't count WBA title as Joshua owns WBA super HW title.)
3 - I think you underrate Ortiz, but I can understand that as well.
4 - Opinions are never wrong...and shouldn't be disrespected (not at you here)
5 - Whyte has done enough for another shot and Ortiz has done nothing. Whyte shouldn't risk if he is in line.
6 - To be fair, Wilder was signed to fight mandatories twice before so he's not ducking...the fights were PED'd (lol)

I like posts that trigger thought; have no insults; and took effort. Thanks!!!!!!!

PS: I broke my own rule. A bit long winded...:=)

[candyslim]

Funny you're saying I underrate Ortiz. Only yesterday I was accused of overrating Ortiz, and disrespecting Povetkin. I've always rated both these fighters and Pulev very highly, but they are all getting a bit long in the tooth now, and I suspect less effective than they were.

Whyte shouldn't risk if he's in line? He's a risk taker but that hasn't got him to the front of that line. 2nd in that line is two years away. The line may as well not exist.

It's ironic that Whyte is reaping a backlash because he is seen as Joshua's minion and his first line of defence. Ironic really as Whyte has no more regard for Joshua than Fury has. In a way his association with, and assistance from, Eddie Hearn has given him a leg-up but also bitten him on the arse, if that doesn't sound too much like a contortionist's nightmare.

[oogiebe]

Funny you're saying I underrate Ortiz. Only yesterday I was accused of overrating Ortiz, and disrespecting Povetkin. I've always rated both these fighters and Pulev very highly, but they are all getting a bit long in the tooth now, and I suspect less effective than they were.

Whyte shouldn't risk if he's in line? He's a risk taker but that hasn't got him to the front of that line. 2nd in that line is two years away. The line may as well not exist.

It's ironic that Whyte is reaping a backlash because he is seen as Joshua's minion and his first line of defence. Ironic really as Whyte has no more regard for Joshua than Fury has. In a way his association with, and assistance from, Eddie Hearn has given him a leg-up but also bitten him on the arse, if that doesn't sound too much like a contortionist's nightmare.

Well if you are getting accused from both sides more than likely you are correct in what you think. Regarding Whyte and AJ, it is a rivalry and hopefully we'll have one more fight between the two. I don't get the Whyte backlash, unless it's used in a defensive posture to prove or push another point. Hell, I may even be accused of that. I still think that most of the tension is around AJ/Wilder. Anything else, to many folk, is just fodder. I like Whyte. He's a solid HW who can beat most of the division on a given evening. Pulev was solid, but we don't know what we're getting with him at this time after a long layoff. Speaking for myself, I hate Hearn and may from time to time take it out on a fighter. Never said I was perfect!

Thanks!

[Heretic]

I think it's clear Ortiz is not what he was, but Pulev is 37 and it's been a while since he fought anyone good enough to test whether he still justifies his lofty ranking. And while i'm not saying his injury wasn't genuine, he didn't seem exactly gutted to have to pull out of the Joshua fight did he? I think Ortiz is at this stage retaining more ambition than Pulev.

In my opinion Pulev pulling out of the Joshua fight shows that he actually still has ambitions. He could have done what Pac did and fight with broken shoulder and get career high payday. (Or at least second highest after the Wlad fight.) I think that hes refusal to fight with injury actually means that he thinks he can win against Joshua and that hes not going to fight him just for the good payday.

cs:I would have probably reached the same conclusion were it not that Pulev definitely rejected the offer once before (the abortive mandatory shot) to face Joshua, and I can't confirm but others have agreed when I posted that I heard he had rejected more than once. Badhusker said multiple times but that could just be hyperbole.

cs: It's my feeling that he is content being a national hero, a Bulgarian sporting icon and he would rather forego even £5m for fighting Joshua if that meant another Klitschkoesque beating and loss of face in the eyes of his adoring fans . There again I could be talking out of my arse. It's a difficult technique and took me a long time to master.

That's a good one

I think and hope that we will see Joshua vs Pulev in the relatively close future.

Pulev has good ranking and has good chance ending in mandatory spot. I think he want's to fight Joshua but only if he is in 100% shape.

Only problem is hes in the low reward with some risk category. It is pretty hard to look good against Pulev if he sticks to the move and box style.

There are bigger fights out there for Joshua and some of them has lower risks so he might not be in too big hurry to make the fight happen.

I guess we will see how it unfolds in couple of years

[oogiebe]

Pulev needs to have a fight first imho.

[candyslim]

The Whyte backlash stems from Haymon and Wilder and has spread through the Wilder fanbase. As the Brits see it, Whyte provides Deontay with a very lucrative opportunity to come here, show his skills, beat our number two (not too many Brits expect Whyte to win but they do expect him to draw the best out of Deontay in a competitive match) and generate massive publicity and get the locals all fired up for Joshua to ride in and avenge his compatriot.

The trouble is Wilder/Haymon never saw it as an opportunity but some kind of trap or at least a test of Wilder's worthyness rather than a showcase hors d'ouvre.

It's a shame really because it would have been a great opportunity for all involved but now Whyte is seen as an impediment to the unification rather than the opening ceremony

[oogiebe]

The Whyte backlash stems from Haymon and Wilder and has spread through the Wilder fanbase. As the Brits see it, Whyte provides Deontay with a very lucrative opportunity to come here, show his skills, beat our number two (not too many Brits expect Whyte to win but they do expect him to draw the best out of Deontay in a competitive match) and generate massive publicity and get the locals all fired up for Joshua to ride in and avenge his compatriot.

The trouble is Wilder/Haymon never saw it as an opportunity but some kind of trap or at least a test of Wilder's worthyness rather than a showcase hors d'ouvre.

It's a shame really because it would have been a great opportunity for all involved but now Whyte is seen as an impediment to the unification rather than the opening ceremony

Great post...fair points...can't argue with this. (well one can, but one would be wrong). Well done Candy, if you don't mind me saying.

[candyslim]

Pulev needs to have a fight first imho.

Me too. Whatever you say about AJ I don't think anyone could (justifiably) call him risk-averse.

Oh no Oogie I don't mind even a little bit

[Heretic]

realistically in todays division whyte already has one of the best resumes, certainly of the best over the last few years. some talk of him maybe fighting pulev next and if he beats him too his resume becomes extremely hard to knock unless you do it to almost everyone else

Whyte has been keeping busy and fighting everyone. If he could add Pulev on the list he would overtake Wilder on resume.

Miller is also on pretty good track. Bit lower level of opponents but hes getting up there too.

We could use couple of more guys like them and we would suddenly have pretty good HW division

[oogiebe]

Pulev needs to have a fight first imho.

Me too. Whatever you say about AJ I don't think anyone could (justifiably) call him risk-averse.

No. You can't. ALl the banter we hear/see on AJ/Wilder is just to build the fight up. I'd like Wilder to get a promoter that actually promotes. Much as I can't stand Eddie Hearn, he's done a fantastic job with AJ, and Whyte as well. (don't tell anyone I said that...it'll ruin my reputation).

[candyslim]

I promise not to tell but I'll be buggered if I can understand your dislike of Hearn or Miller. I think they are both great personalities, very good at what they do, and very good for boxing. Your opinion, your choice my friend.

[Heretic]

Pulev needs to have a fight first imho.

Yeah I agree.

I don't see this fight happening next anyway.

[oogiebe]

Pulev needs to have a fight first imho.

Yeah I agree.

I don't see this fight happening next anyway.

True that and disappointing.

[oogiebe]

I promise not to tell but I'll be buggered if I can understand your dislike of Hearn or Miller. I think they are both great personalities, very good at what they do, and very good for boxing. Your opinion, your choice my friend.

It's not dislike, just don't like the schtick. so to speak.

[Heretic]

I promise not to tell but I'll be buggered if I can understand your dislike of Hearn or Miller. I think they are both great personalities, very good at what they do, and very good for boxing. Your opinion, your choice my friend.

You don't always get to choose your opinions... Sometimes they seem to choose you

I can understand why some people might not like Miller. He is not exactly Ali is he?

He has an ugly fighting style. Unorthodox approach to the sport. Physical appearance that does not please some people. Yet he is still very effective. It is not beauty contest after all.

I like to see the different styles... They intrigue me. It is interesting to see how far can he get?

I think he will struggle and loose against guys with top level power. I think he will roll over others.

I don't dislike Hearn personally... But I do dislike the boxing politics. Too often we don't get to see the fights that we want to because of risk calculations done by guys like him

[oogiebe]

I promise not to tell but I'll be buggered if I can understand your dislike of Hearn or Miller. I think they are both great personalities, very good at what they do, and very good for boxing. Your opinion, your choice my friend.

You don't always get to choose your opinions... Sometimes they seem to choose you

I can understand why some people might not like Miller. He is not exactly Ali is he?

He has an ugly fighting style. Unorthodox approach to the sport. Physical appearance that does not please some people. Yet he is still very effective. It is not beauty contest after all.

I like to see the different styles... They intrigue me. It is interesting to see how far can he get?

I think he will struggle and loose against guys with top level power. I think he will roll over others.

I don't dislike Hearn personally... But I do dislike the boxing politics. Too often we don't get to see the fights that we want to because of risk calculations done by guys like him

Regarding miller; his act is tiresome and his fighting is less than exciting. I don't hold him up too much on the fight side.

[candyslim]

Miller certainly polarizes opinions. It's going to be fun watching his career unfold. I've run my mouth almost as much as he has, so if it turns out he really is a slow fat sack of sh1t that can't box, has appalling punch placement, lacks stamina and eats punches then I think it will become apparent he has gone about as far as he's going to get.

If that's how it plays out I will take all the verbal caning I deserve because I say the bloke can fight.

[oogiebe]

Miller certainly polarizes opinions. It's going to be fun watching his career unfold. I've run my mouth almost as much as he has, so if it turns out he really is a slow fat sack of sh1t that can't box, has appalling punch placement, lacks stamina and eats punches then I think it will become apparent he has gone about as far as he's going to get.

If that's how it plays out I will take all the verbal caning I deserve because I say the bloke can fight.

I respect you taking ownership. I'll eat the crow if he becomes major and you if he is a fat slog! DEAL!!!!

[Rob3_142]

Whyte should fight Ortiz if that is ordered. Why not? Good fight and would do eliminate one of the fighters from contention for now. I would love to see this fight and could care less about the BS going on around it coming from Hearn.

But Ortiz has already been removed from contention. How many times can you be removed from contention, before being removed from contention? (I appreciate that this is a common ploy by the WBC, as Stiverne also got and, albeit strange, second chance).

[oogiebe]

Whyte should fight Ortiz if that is ordered. Why not? Good fight and would do eliminate one of the fighters from contention for now. I would love to see this fight and could care less about the BS going on around it coming from Hearn.

But Ortiz has already been removed from contention. How many times can you be removed from contention, before being removed from contention? (I appreciate that this is a common ploy by the WBC, as Stiverne also got and, albeit strange, second chance).

LOL! Tongue twister! I don't think he's out of contention. We can debate that all year. If the guy (Ortiz) fights we'll have an answer. If Whyte is forced to fight him I'll watch because it'll be an interesting and good fight, but ordering it is a bit outside my liking of sanctioning bodies with title fights being the exception. Ortiz lost once. He is still scary. Remember that Wilder was scheduled to fight Pedvetkin before he failed a drug test. (please let's no get on with "Wilder never going to Russia" for all you Wilder haters out there.)

[Rob3_142]

Maybe we can be honest and point out Dillian Whyte has essentially beaten a couple dreadful heavyweights living on name recognition and has actually proven far less than advertised. The benefits of a weak division, vastly overrated fighters like Whyte get rewarded with undue praise. Making him fight an actual threat like Ortiz, to earn a title shot, is far from a big ask. I'm glad it upsets the plans, they wanna fuss every time poo doesn't go their way whine because they didn't get what they want when they want it. Any real fan would want Whyte to face the best, not the absolute poo he previously faced. A lifeless mummy and a horribly out of shape inactive doper who came to cash out. These are not valuable wins, it's sad anyone would think that. Now Ortiz could be by far Whyte's biggest win, and it's a chance to outdo Wilder. They don't fancy his chances, or like not having control. There might be extra hoops to go through, but Whyte had an easy path to get where he is now, can't feel sorry. Not when most boxers have to do far more to get the chances and backing he's already gotten.

I don't really think you get the point. Ortiz rightfully earned his shot at a world title, lost it, and should be duly dropped back somewhere down the pecking order. Instead, he is dropped back at the top, and ordered in a final eliminator against someone many perceive as the next in line to be mandatory. What's more, someone who was ranked lower down the WBC ranking than Whyte (Breazeale) has miraculously leap frogged the Brit into mandatory position, without fighting a final eliminator himself.

It matters little how much you rate Whyte's level of opposition (which I personally rate as high as anyone else in the top 5 [barring maybe AJ]), as Whyte has gone through the motions to earn his spot, which has been unfairly taken away from him.

You say that Whyte should want to fight the best, well he wants to fight Wilder, not the guy who he just beat.

[Rob3_142]

That's a good one

I think and hope that we will see Joshua vs Pulev in the relatively close future.

Pulev has good ranking and has good chance ending in mandatory spot. I think he want's to fight Joshua but only if he is in 100% shape.

Only problem is hes in the low reward with some risk category. It is pretty hard to look good against Pulev if he sticks to the move and box style.

There are bigger fights out there for Joshua and some of them has lower risks so he might not be in too big hurry to make the fight happen.

I guess we will see how it unfolds in couple of years

You'll find that Pulev has since been removed from the BoxRec rankings, probably due to inactivity (and no scheduled fight).

[Rob3_142]

Whyte should fight Ortiz if that is ordered. Why not? Good fight and would do eliminate one of the fighters from contention for now. I would love to see this fight and could care less about the BS going on around it coming from Hearn.

But Ortiz has already been removed from contention. How many times can you be removed from contention, before being removed from contention? (I appreciate that this is a common ploy by the WBC, as Stiverne also got and, albeit strange, second chance).

LOL! Tongue twister! I don't think he's out of contention. We can debate that all year. If the guy (Ortiz) fights we'll have an answer. If Whyte is forced to fight him I'll watch because it'll be an interesting and good fight, but ordering it is a bit outside my liking of sanctioning bodies with title fights being the exception. Ortiz lost once. He is still scary. Remember that Wilder was scheduled to fight Pedvetkin before he failed a drug test. (please let's no get on with "Wilder never going to Russia" for all you Wilder haters out there.)

I believe it would be a great fight, and in context to the HW lanscape, Ortiz is still very relevant, but that's not really the point is it? The point is Ortiz was relevant, lost his title shot, and has been given another throw of the dice. Surely what should happen is two unrelated fighters at the top of the rankings compete in a final eliminator, and Ortiz is dropped down the lower half of the rankings, and starts his journey once more. Could we really imagine that happening if Whyte was finally given his shot and he lost [given another throw of the dice that is]?

What's more, the complaints of fighting Povetkin because of a failed drug test, and Wilder then claiming he would never fight a drugs cheat (an admirable stance), but then fighting Ortiz who himself only failed a drugs test some 6 months prior. It stinks of hypocrisy to me.

[oogiebe]

But Ortiz has already been removed from contention. How many times can you be removed from contention, before being removed from contention? (I appreciate that this is a common ploy by the WBC, as Stiverne also got and, albeit strange, second chance).

LOL! Tongue twister! I don't think he's out of contention. We can debate that all year. If the guy (Ortiz) fights we'll have an answer. If Whyte is forced to fight him I'll watch because it'll be an interesting and good fight, but ordering it is a bit outside my liking of sanctioning bodies with title fights being the exception. Ortiz lost once. He is still scary. Remember that Wilder was scheduled to fight Pedvetkin before he failed a drug test. (please let's no get on with "Wilder never going to Russia" for all you Wilder haters out there.)

I believe it would be a great fight, and in context to the HW lanscape, Ortiz is still very relevant, but that's not really the point is it? The point is Ortiz was relevant, lost his title shot, and has been given another throw of the dice. Surely what should happen is two unrelated fighters at the top of the rankings compete in a final eliminator, and Ortiz is dropped down the lower half of the rankings, and starts his journey once more. Could we really imagine that happening if Whyte was finally given his shot and he lost [given another throw of the dice that is]?

What's more, the complaints of fighting Povetkin because of a failed drug test, and Wilder then claiming he would never fight a drugs cheat (an admirable stance), but then fighting Ortiz who himself only failed a drugs test some 6 months prior. It stinks of hypocrisy to me.
[/quote]

IDK other than Whyte earns another title fight because no one else is fighting. So I think we agree. I would just like to see him fight Ortiz as it would be a good bout. And..it may tell us a lot about both fighters. I'm like, "someone fight someone please!"

[Rob3_142]

But Ortiz has already been removed from contention. How many times can you be removed from contention, before being removed from contention? (I appreciate that this is a common ploy by the WBC, as Stiverne also got and, albeit strange, second chance).

LOL! Tongue twister! I don't think he's out of contention. We can debate that all year. If the guy (Ortiz) fights we'll have an answer. If Whyte is forced to fight him I'll watch because it'll be an interesting and good fight, but ordering it is a bit outside my liking of sanctioning bodies with title fights being the exception. Ortiz lost once. He is still scary. Remember that Wilder was scheduled to fight Pedvetkin before he failed a drug test. (please let's no get on with "Wilder never going to Russia" for all you Wilder haters out there.)

I believe it would be a great fight, and in context to the HW lanscape, Ortiz is still very relevant, but that's not really the point is it? The point is Ortiz was relevant, lost his title shot, and has been given another throw of the dice. Surely what should happen is two unrelated fighters at the top of the rankings compete in a final eliminator, and Ortiz is dropped down the lower half of the rankings, and starts his journey once more. Could we really imagine that happening if Whyte was finally given his shot and he lost [given another throw of the dice that is]?

What's more, the complaints of fighting Povetkin because of a failed drug test, and Wilder then claiming he would never fight a drugs cheat (an admirable stance), but then fighting Ortiz who himself only failed a drugs test some 6 months prior. It stinks of hypocrisy to me.

IDK other than Whyte earns another title fight because no one else is fighting. So I think we agree. I would just like to see him fight Ortiz as it would be a good bout. And..it may tell us a lot about both fighters. I'm like, "someone fight someone please!"
[/quote]

Well fights are always ongoing. It was only 5 minutes ago that Wilder and Ortiz went toe to toe.

Looks like Whyte v Pulev is being lined up for July. Just a shame that the WBC politics are rearing their ugly head again.