Top 10 Cruiserweights of All Time

[jamamb]

yet again you dont explain the reasoning. nice job, obviously a bit harder then you thought when you actually take a look at the facts

omg usyk doesnt have gomez's longevity of bum beating! but screw it, longevity means nothing when it comes to 2 title fight haye! if only usyk could get splattered like dave did then he could move up multiple tiers of greatness

[orbtastic]

You admitted you've never been to boxing live on another thread?

So basically you're basing these ratings on watching people fight on youtube and looking at boxrec?

What he's done is basically the second time since Holyfield did it - Mormeck didn't hold the WBO but I don't really think anyone wanted him to fight Macca? I don't remember anyone calling for that fight or suggesting that he was ducking him and not the "real" champ.

It's an achievement but you have to look at the overall picture and state of the game at the time. Are the cruisers any better now than at any other point? They're probably better than various other points in time but you could say that "all" holyfield did was beat five guys at 190 and unify the titles, why's that make him number 1?

Gomez was good, just unfortunate to be in stepchild division (which let's face it, it always has been) and little or no interest. He was clearly a good boxer, decent power and brushed past most of the guys he faced fairly easily. He was good enough to put on some weight and campaign at heavyweight and I'm sure had he had better oppo available at 190 would have dominated. I'm fairly sure he would have beaten the Frenchman, Tiozzo and the Jirov fight would have been interesting and not a foregone conclusion. So given that he had more than a reasonable chance of beating Jirov, who most sensible people rate in their top ten ATG and also elevate Toney in there BECAUSE he beat him why is it silly to have him in a list? He literally makes any list you care to look at and rates highly because he was actually a very good cruiserweight who dominated. Just because you've never actually seen him fight or know any of the names on his boxrec record doesn't make him rubbish?

Why diminish Haye? He beat the consensus number 1 in a fight few gave him a chance of winning and absolutely clowned Macca. He practically decapitated Gurov (although Dunstan had done almost a mirror image of that ten years earlier) and had a high paced entertaining win over the Italian guy who went on to hold the title. I mean why even rate him at all at Cruiserweight cos he lost to a bum like Thompson?

[jamamb]

i dont mean to attack the career of any fighter, what im interested in is comparing the cruiser careers of the guys in question. your claiming theres at least a multi-tier difference between gomez/haye and usyk, and i just want to look into whether theres any good reason to think such a gap exists

basically youve now said gomez was a real good fighter but was just unfortunate to be around at a bad time. poor guy! maybe he wouldve won those fights you mention, but they never happened and as such he deserves zero credit for them. going by WHAT HE ACTUALLY DID, gomez had a very weak title run and really fought no one. i see no reason to place him multiple tiers above usyk when his opposition was so bad and so clearly wrose. gomez was just a wbc trinket holder getting comfy low risk fights, while usyk was the lineal and undisputed champ who beat the best in the division. he proved his mettle by repeatedly fighting the best and by doing it in his opponents backyards.

haye is kind of the opposite and i find you rating him that high funny. i mean you dont rank usyk with gomez because of depth, but then someone haye makes it that level? haye had a good career, but he really didnt have all that many singificant fights (two title fights), so no depth, and i dont see how his wins were of the type that possibly come close to placing him tiers above usyk. his second best cw win is probably enzo mac ffs! the loss to thompson, not a giant deal, but its a notable point in a cruiser career that wasnt that long, and its certainly relevant if ppl are gonna try to hold usyks fight vs briedis against him, simply because it was compeititve

comparing what they actually achieved and who they actually beat, no chance haye and gomez should rank any tier above usyk, let alone multi tiers. gomez beat no one and mormeck/enzo/frago/ko loss to thompson isnt even close to trumping usyks career. usyk is the undisputed + lineal champ, beat top 3-5 fighters repeatedly, and has done it on the road every time. great amateur career of olympic gold, now a great cw pro career. easily top 10 already.

[orbtastic]

So where do you rank Toney and Jirov then?

You think DeLeon is a lock for the number 2 spot?

Don't rate Wamba?

I think Usyk can probably go to number 3 if has a couple more decent wins. What he's done is impressive but I don't think it automatically catapults him to the ATG top ten.

I get that you don't rate Haye, not every does but they cloud his wins at cruiser with his kinda patchy fights at heavyweight where his body was starting to break down. I'm rating him at cruiser because he had some truly impressive performances. If he'd just beaten Mormeck then hard to say, I'd probably still rate him outside the lower top ten but then if Mormeck was in the top ten (as most seem to rate him, lower rung at least) then you'd have to have him above, surely? lol

Seeing as we're into pure hypothetical territory - How do you see Usyk faring against the top ten ATG list?

[Tuan_Jim]

You admitted you've never been to boxing live on another thread?

So basically you're basing these ratings on watching people fight on youtube and looking at boxrec?

He's never been to fights and is unaware of famous fighters even of recent vintage, and yet here he is accusing others of skimming Boxrec records and trying to lecture us about fighters and eras that he's having to learn about himself on the fly as he participates in his thread!

Waste of time poster, I realised pretty quickly that he doesn't know his arse from his elbow. I'd move on if I were you.

[jamamb]

ive actually been to many live fights and probably over 50 am cards, including some i boxed on. i just have never been live to a major pro fight and havent been to a pro show in years. im not sure how thats relevant anyway, id bet no one in this thread has been to more then maybe a tiny amount of the cruiser fights discussed here, and even if they had how would that even change things? plus some posters here have openly gone on about losing interest in the sport, how theyll be done with boxing when pacman and floyd are gone (eh tuany), etc. so i dont really see whats a big deal about not going to many live shows. of all the sections in the forum, this is prob the one where the regulars have the least current interest and the most bitterness about the sport

ive followed the cruiser division very closely, much more closely than hw. i know for example jc gomez had a totall ubambitious cruiser career of cozy risk free defenses, that the early 2000s us domestic scene was trash, and that mr dynamic dave (funny how a certain poster suddenly wants to play the same eye test he detests over and over in other threads ) had far more problems with a lower level of opposition then usyk did, for example

btw, sometimes saying you arent familar with a guy and want to know his best wins isnt always so much an admission of not knowing much about him, is can be a way to turn attention to certain points you want to highlight (like fact that ppl can hardly list any good wins for the guy because he doesnt have any!)

[jamamb]

so, were any of you bruhs at the big cruiser fight in ruissa last week, nah prob sitting on your ass on boxrec like we all are now

[Ambling Alp II]

I dont follow the whole logic with Breidis. Ken Norton was even with Ali when they fought but nobody has him in their top 10. Nobody has Hasim Rahman in their top 20 or Buster Douglas.

I am not just talking about head to head though obviously that is always a factor when rating two fighters.
Norton fought well against Ali but Ali obviously otherwise had a much better career. Same with Rahman and Lewis. Lewis obviously had far better career.
With Norton-Ali and Rahman-Lewis there is a huge difference in the rest of their careers.
So far, there is not a huge difference in the careers of Usyk and Briedis. They should be rated very close to each other.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

So far, there is not a huge difference in the careers of Usyk and Briedis. They should be rated very close to each other.

- Well now, Alp, your analysis seems more than a bit dyslegic, so let's take a looksee:

Briedis with a better accumulative career, 24-1, 18 KO, compared to Usyk 15-0, 11 KO, but Usyk with much better, more prolific title contenders, currently 6-0, 2 KO compared to Briedis at 2-1, Zero KOs.

Add on Usyk's unofficial pro debut with WBS, 6-0 record with 3 of that bunch currently aspiring undefeated superheavyweight contenders, Junior Fa, Joe Joyce, and Matteo Madugno, that closes the gross numbers gap and adds to his impressive opponent list that has never seen him fight anyone with a losing record. Add on the superior Ama credentials, Briedis ain't in the ballpark and nobody is at cruiser. Usyk #7 P4P on boxrec and Briedis #32 and Usyk even higher in the Ring P4P.

As to Mr. Field's cruiser qualifications, I daresay through the timelines Usyk's comp whoops his, not really a fair comparison since Field and his comp would be competing at LH today, and Usyk and his comp all big heavies in the 210-220 range come fight night because of the modern weighin rehydration extension. Usyk would have to go 7-10-2, 4 KO to finish out his career to match Field's 28-10-2, 15 KO heavyweight career, something I doubt he would ever shame himself to do.

The only weakness I see in Usyk is his bounteous leg movement that works great as long as he maintains conditioning and staying uninjured. I was mightily impressed against Briedis when stunned by a right hand, Usyk ducked under the follow up and used Briedis momentum to spin him to wrap him up from behind and then stuck his foot out to put him off balance. Great instincts and I don't ever recall that specific move.

Yeah, I know, the guy does looks a bit like an alien not of this planet. Hhmmmm, maybe that explains everything!

[reckbox]

Don't see the logic of ranking Usyk #2, and Briedies doesn't get ranked at all. So far, there doesn't seem to be of a gap between these two guys. If nobody thinks Briedies is in the Top 10, then Usyk can't be #2.

If there would be a rematch now, Briedis would knock Usyk out.

[jamamb]

so easy to talk bruh, anyone can predict anything, but didnt go down that way when they fought, usyk went to his backyard and still took his belt from him

and youve been a member here 2 years but only posted about that fight, including your first botched prediction

[Cojimar 1946]

How good would you say the current cruiserweight era is relative to earlier eras?

[DrDuke]

How good would you say the current cruiserweight era is relative to earlier eras?

It's definitely a one of the best eras and probably even the best. It contains a lot of high level boxers and the best of them fought in an exciting tournament, where an undisputed champion was determined. Of course, that makes the era highly rated in the history.

[Ambling Alp II]

The division has only been around since about 1980. How many "eras" has there actually been? Guess it depends on what you consider to be an "era".

[Cojimar 1946]

Lets say by decade so under that criteria there have been four eras the 80s, 90s 2000s and 2010s.

[Cojimar 1946]

I'm mostly familiar with the 2010s and 2000s, don't know much about the division in the 80s and 90s

The 2000s had Haye, Adamek, O'Neil Bell, Mormeck, Jones, et so it would seem like a pretty strong era.

[polecateddy]

Alfred Cole was an excellent cruiser weight champion before settling into life as s journeyman heavyweight. Johnny Nelson also should make the list. I think Jirov and Toney were a bit overrated as cruisers. Jirov was very easy to hit and faded away very quickly. He was made for Toney to look good against.

[squiggy]

Usyk is #2 after Holyfield. Being great is about beating the best of own era. Usyk has done it. And he has done it convincingly, he dominated everyone. And don't tell me about "tough" Briedis fight, where the scorecards actually sucked, it was competetive, but clear in Usyk's favor.

Usyk's era is very good. He has defeated a top-10 all-time competitor Huck and his conqueror Glowacki and then Briedis. He outclassed Gassiev, who had defeated a couple of dominant forces of the division's past.

I just don't see much in this current crop and am mystified by the big reputations they all have. It's ultimately been a lot of distance fights with almost no knockdowns and the jab and grab, jab and grab, right hand and grab formula dominating, Usyk emerging as the most effective employer of that unexciting style. Who knows though? With hindsight he may well prove to be a more versatile fighter than he looks at present.

Jirov was wrecking guys, and was ranked very highly in the p4ps. No jabbing and grabbing with him. People forget how great his reputation was, and his loss of status is why some of us here are sensible enough to withhold judgment on Usyk. Everyone would have had Jirov a lock for number two fifteen years ago, now he doesn't even appear in some people's top 10s!

Toney with one fight, at 35 and with many worrying he was going to be hurt, ruined the top dog at cruiser. Such a performance plants him high in the lists. He showed what he was capable of. Tyson Fury had 20 or so nothing fights but then validated his lack of opposition by schooling the top dog. I suppose you can get away with not having a big body of work in a division if you can outclass its number 1.

Orlin Norris and David Haye were more dynamic than these jab and grab types we have currently imo.

Jirov-Toney is my favorite cruiserweight fight to rewatch; I can see it as a reason to rate Toney as a cruiser, but I think it's unfortunate if people use it as a reason not to rate Jirov.

[squiggy]

Do tell us more......was there a conspiracy, or did he just face nobodys?

Or are you hating on him because he gives Iran Barkley a run in the dashing good looks dept?


I'm honestly half serious....his record is good, I saw him fight a few fights on film, and was surprised at his record.

Did he really have a run in with a tough Dept Store Security guard? lol.

It was an anecdote Mason related a few times while a pundit on Sky Sports in the 90s. I had one of them on tape. Some kind of confrontation took place in Vegas and a freaking security guard laid Wamba clean out with one punch. Mason was an eye witness, and would tell the story with utter amazement. Of course Mason with his giant head could be hit with a baseball bat and he would probably think a gnat had bit him but still, you would reasonably expect a cruiserweight world champion like Wamba to shake off the best punch of a civilian. It's just incredible.

Interesting story. In his defense, being blindsided is a pretty vulnerable scenario...(if that's what happened) "The Alien" is a good example.....and some of those guards can be pretty gifted in the one shot dept. Now if Wamba saw it coming, and still ended up like this....that's embarrassing. But boxers have no greater defense for being coldcocked than anybody else.....but it is a bigger story when it happens.

Right. If the anecdote is true as told, it's still so far from in-ring action, it's a short step from keeping Mike Tyson out of your top 10 because you used to beat him in the video game.

[Tuan_Jim]

I'm not using it as an excuse not to rank Wamba. I didn't see much to get excited about when he was fighting. I haven't compiled my own list so unsure where he'd be. I was just sharing a weird story about him.

[polecateddy]

I think the test should fighting Ezra Sellers ten times and seeing how many you lose. I think Usyk could win 8 of them, but gets careless and cold cocked twice. Not a bad score, but I think some of the others could do even better.

[squiggy]

I'm not using it as an excuse not to rank Wamba. I didn't see much to get excited about when he was fighting. I haven't compiled my own list so unsure where he'd be. I was just sharing a weird story about him.

Fair enough. I also don't mean to make a situation where it looks like the awesomeness of Wamba is a hill I want to die for.

[jamamb]

I think the test should fighting Ezra Sellers ten times and seeing how many you lose. I think Usyk could win 8 of them, but gets careless and cold cocked twice. Not a bad score, but I think some of the others could do even better.

ehhh....all of sellers notable wins (and tbh there werent that many at all) came against fairly basic fighters who traded with him, thats not usyk at all. if they fought 10 times i think sellers would have been fortunate to win once. he was pretty much an espn us domestic scene level cruiser of the late 90s and 2000s, who just so happened to be a big banger (and very chinny and crude)

stopped by nelson
stopped by kelvin davis
stopped by o neil bell
stopped by ramon garby
stopped by nwodo
stopped by alex stewart at hw, even thought stewart was right there for him and really shouldve been taken out
stopped by bruce seldon and some 3-8 guy, though early in his in his career and ill give him a break on those

beat domestic level jason robinson , meh
beat carl thompson , who really had too much macho and was too much of a warrior for his own good that night


of course, sellers did have legit power, not denying that, but i just think he was far too limited to do much against usyk, and he was chinny enough where i think usyk would be hurting him pretty easily despite not being a big puncher. and sellers was too limited to be counted on as a reliable finisher

who do you think does better then 8-2 vs sellers?

[polecateddy]

It was only a joke really, but Ezra did floor Johnny Nelson too. Possibly the only fighter to manage that feat during Nelson's title reign. I don't think Seller's was only effective against basic types.

[Cojimar 1946]

I think the late 2000s were pretty good you had from 2005-2010 Tomasz Adamek, David Haye, Guillermo Jones, Steve Cunningham, Jean Marc Mormeck and Grigory Drozd.