BoxRec

Posted: **18 May 2018, 05:31**

dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 05:27
Like a Boss wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 05:25 It wasn't long ago posters were scoffing in chorus at even the possibility the fight could be held in the US. The list of reasons why it couldn't, shouldn't and won'
I think everyone knew it always could be held in America. Haymon is very rich, Hearn has always been talking about pushing Joshua towards America.

The issue (which still hasn't been clarified) is how it can work financially in America given heavyweight boxing just isn't a big issue there.

If 'everybody always knew there was a possibility it could be held in the US' then some sure had a funny way of expressing it.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 06:42**

Like a Boss wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 05:25 It wasn't long ago posters were scoffing in chorus at even the possibility the fight could be held in the US. The list of reasons why it couldn't, shouldn't and just won't was absolutely endless.

Of course. The fight clearly makes more money in america.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 07:11**

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 06:42
Like a Boss wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 05:25 It wasn't long ago posters were scoffing in chorus at even the possibility the fight could be held in the US. The list of reasons why it couldn't, shouldn't and just won't was absolutely endless.
Of course. The fight clearly makes more money in america.

Except nobody has demonstrated how. We just get endless 'it'll sell because it's two unbeaten heavyweights in an evenly matched fight with loads of knockouts between them.'

Wilder's last fight was between two unbeaten heavyweights in an evenly matched fight with loads of knockouts between them and barely anyone watched, and it made a pittance compared to Joshua v Takam.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 07:12**

If it goes to America it's gona be in the middle of the night in the UK.

Like it or not, that's gona affect the PPV buy rate in the UK, the real casuals aren't gona stay up for it, nevermind miserable old gits like me who can't be arsed staying up all night anymore.

Iff they put it in some arena in Vegas, what's the biggest crowd they're gona get? 20k? You just lost 70-80k extra ticket money you could have generated in a UK stadium.

It just doesn't add up. Wilder's pulling sums of money out of his ass, but hasn't got the actual paper to back it up. Has he even had one PPV fight yet in the US?

Posted: **18 May 2018, 07:22**

TheCobra wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:12Has he even had one PPV fight yet in the US?

I don't believe he has. Certainly not as the headline act albeit he may have been somewhere down the card on a PPV show in the past.

An easy way to look at this is viewing figures. Against Ortiz Wilder drew an audience of 1.8m on a non-PPV card in a country with a population of 325m. Against Klitschko Joshua drew an audience of 1.5m on a PPV platform in a country with a population of 70m (including Ireland for the sake of where the fight was broadcast.)

If it happens in America Wilder v Joshua will still be a very big fight. But the above clearly demonstrates that the popularity of both men in their respective countries are poles apart.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 07:31**

TheCobra wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:12 If it goes to America it's gona be in the middle of the night in the UK.

Like it or not, that's gona affect the PPV buy rate in the UK, the real casuals aren't gona stay up for it, nevermind miserable old gits like me who can't be arsed staying up all night anymore.

Iff they put it in some arena in Vegas, what's the biggest crowd they're gona get? 20k? You just lost 70-80k extra ticket money you could have generated in a UK stadium.

It just doesn't add up. Wilder's pulling sums of money out of his ass, but hasn't got the actual paper to back it up. Has he even had one PPV fight yet in the US?

Vegas money isn't generated from bums on seats. That's a misconception peddled to UK fans to make them think this country is at the forefront of world boxing when that clearly isn't the case.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 07:46**

Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:31Vegas money isn't generated from bums on seats. That's a misconception peddled to UK fans to make them think this country is at the forefront of world boxing when that clearly isn't the case.

Wilder Stiverne I was in Vegas. Wilder was paid $1m and Stiverne $910k.

I appreciate this would be bigger but it's going to have to generate an absolutely enormous amount of money for both fighters to be paid in excess of $65m.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 08:21**

dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:46
Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:31Vegas money isn't generated from bums on seats. That's a misconception peddled to UK fans to make them think this country is at the forefront of world boxing when that clearly isn't the case.
Wilder Stiverne I was in Vegas. Wilder was paid $1m and Stiverne $910k.

I appreciate this would be bigger but it's going to have to generate an absolutely enormous amount of money for both fighters to be paid in excess of $65m.

That is a different fight. We are talking about Joshua-Wilder and a certain type of fight. As mentioned above, simply name all the fights of this type that have taken place in the UK rather than the US. Or do one at a time and I'll counter with a comparable fight that took place in America. We can continue until one of us runs out of fights.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 08:40**

Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 08:21That is a different fight. We are talking about Joshua-Wilder and a certain type of fight. As mentioned above, simply name all the fights of this type that have taken place in the UK rather than the US. Or do one at a time and I'll counter with a comparable fight that took place in America. We can continue until one of us runs out of fights.

There's no doubt that the US has historically been the centre of the boxing universe and in many ways still is. My question is simply why does an American heavyweight champion earn 10/5% of what a UK heavyweight champion earns when he happens to be fighting in the very place that makes so much more money.

I mean, if you were Wilder, and there was so much more money to be made fighting in America, would you not be asking why you're getting $2m when your biggest rival is getting $20m?

Posted: **18 May 2018, 08:47**

dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:46
Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:31Vegas money isn't generated from bums on seats. That's a misconception peddled to UK fans to make them think this country is at the forefront of world boxing when that clearly isn't the case.
Wilder Stiverne I was in Vegas. Wilder was paid $1m and Stiverne $910k.

I appreciate this would be bigger but it's going to have to generate an absolutely enormous amount of money for both fighters to be paid in excess of $65m.

Terry, he just doesn’t get it. He’s probably wondering why Tyson-Holyfield was in Vegas when Bruno-McCall had more at Wembley in the previous year. He also probably has no knowledge of your insight into these matters.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 08:50**

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 08:47
dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:46
Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:31Vegas money isn't generated from bums on seats. That's a misconception peddled to UK fans to make them think this country is at the forefront of world boxing when that clearly isn't the case.
Wilder Stiverne I was in Vegas. Wilder was paid $1m and Stiverne $910k.

I appreciate this would be bigger but it's going to have to generate an absolutely enormous amount of money for both fighters to be paid in excess of $65m.
Terry, he just doesn’t get it. He’s probably wondering why Tyson-Holyfield was in Vegas when Bruno-McCall had more at Wembley in the previous year. He also probably has no knowledge of your insight into these matters.

If you were the undefeated, American, stopped everyone you have ever faced, heavyweight champion of the world, you would be asking why you were getting paid $2m when your rival is getting paid $20m. Surely that's a reasonable question to ask?

There's no doubt that in a much bigger country with a much bigger potential audience to go with much bigger PPV costs and much bigger advertising revenue more money is there to be made. That's obvious. So why isn't it happening with Wilder?

Posted: **18 May 2018, 08:55**

dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 08:50
mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 08:47
dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:46

Wilder Stiverne I was in Vegas. Wilder was paid $1m and Stiverne $910k.

I appreciate this would be bigger but it's going to have to generate an absolutely enormous amount of money for both fighters to be paid in excess of $65m.
Terry, he just doesn’t get it. He’s probably wondering why Tyson-Holyfield was in Vegas when Bruno-McCall had more at Wembley in the previous year. He also probably has no knowledge of your insight into these matters.
If you were the undefeated, American, stopped everyone you have ever faced, heavyweight champion of the world, you would be asking why you were getting paid $2m when your rival is getting paid $20m. Surely that's a reasonable question to ask?

There's no doubt that in a much bigger country with a much bigger potential audience to go with much bigger PPV costs and much bigger advertising revenue more money is there to be made. That's obvious. So why isn't it happening with Wilder?

Because boxing is all about the circumstances aligning. Joshua-Wilder is a US fight. I'd be surprised if it happened over here. I imagine that the real sticking point is ego in this one as the money is there in the US. The only quibble I have with Joshua is that he should have already chanced his arm over there. If it doesn't happen next I expect Joshua to fight AN Other in a US venue in a semi-final type of a deal. The alternative is to continue treading water over here.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 08:56**

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 08:47
dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:46
Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 07:31Vegas money isn't generated from bums on seats. That's a misconception peddled to UK fans to make them think this country is at the forefront of world boxing when that clearly isn't the case.
Wilder Stiverne I was in Vegas. Wilder was paid $1m and Stiverne $910k.

I appreciate this would be bigger but it's going to have to generate an absolutely enormous amount of money for both fighters to be paid in excess of $65m.
Terry, he just doesn’t get it. He’s probably wondering why Tyson-Holyfield was in Vegas when Bruno-McCall had more at Wembley in the previous year. He also probably has no knowledge of your insight into these matters.

Wotcha mickey. I hope you are well. Tyson-Holyfield was in Vegas?! Did they make any money on that fight?

Posted: **18 May 2018, 09:02**

Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 08:55Because boxing is all about the circumstances aligning. Joshua-Wilder is a US fight. I'd be surprised if it happened over here. I imagine that the real sticking point is ego in this one as the money is there in the US. The only quibble I have with Joshua is that he should have already chanced his arm over there. If it doesn't happen next I expect Joshua to fight AN Other in a US venue in a semi-final type of a deal. The alternative is to continue treading water over here.

Sorry but that doesn't really answer the question of why Wilder is getting top paydays of $2m in the USA and Joshua $20m in the UK, if all the money is in the States.

The comparisons with the past don't really stack up, because Tyson for example was earning far more domestically than any overseas challenger could realistically get anywhere near. If Frank Bruno was earning ten times what Mike Tyson was earning in the late 80's it would work, but evidently the opposite was the case.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 09:05**

dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:02
Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 08:55Because boxing is all about the circumstances aligning. Joshua-Wilder is a US fight. I'd be surprised if it happened over here. I imagine that the real sticking point is ego in this one as the money is there in the US. The only quibble I have with Joshua is that he should have already chanced his arm over there. If it doesn't happen next I expect Joshua to fight AN Other in a US venue in a semi-final type of a deal. The alternative is to continue treading water over here.
Sorry but that doesn't really answer the question of why Wilder is getting top paydays of $2m in the USA and Joshua $20m in the UK, if all the money is in the States.

The comparisons with the past don't really stack up, because Tyson for example was earning far more domestically than any overseas challenger could realistically get anywhere near. If Frank Bruno was earning ten times what Mike Tyson was earning in the late 80's it would work, but evidently the opposite was the case.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 09:11**

If boxing is all about 'circumstances aligning' why does Wilder in a much better fight against Ortiz pick up $2m in the money-rich US whilst in the UK in a far worse fight Joshua makes over six times as much against a guy like Takam?

Posted: **18 May 2018, 09:25**

That should go some way to stemming the losses of Haymon's investors

Posted: **18 May 2018, 09:30**

dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:11 If boxing is all about 'circumstances aligning' why does Wilder in a much better fight against Ortiz pick up $2m in the money-rich US whilst in the UK in a far worse fight Joshua makes over six times as much against a guy like Takam?

Because the circumstances were different for that fight. As I said earlier, instead of playing armchair account just start listing the fights of this nature that have taken place in the UK and I will respond with US ones. If you don't want to spam the thread then list a few in your initial response.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 09:35**

Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:30
dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:11 If boxing is all about 'circumstances aligning' why does Wilder in a much better fight against Ortiz pick up $2m in the money-rich US whilst in the UK in a far worse fight Joshua makes over six times as much against a guy like Takam?
Because the circumstances were different for that fight. As I said earlier, instead of playing armchair account just start listing the fights of this nature that have taken place in the UK and I will respond with US ones. If you don't want to spam the thread then list a few in your initial response.

The circumstances are different for this fight though. That's the entire point.

Name the times in history when a fight was planned between an American and a UK fighter where the UK one was making ten times that domestically that the American was.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 09:51**

Why did peak Tyson box in empty arenas in Tokyo? Tubbs and Douglas?

Posted: **18 May 2018, 09:52**

dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:35
Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:30
dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:11 If boxing is all about 'circumstances aligning' why does Wilder in a much better fight against Ortiz pick up $2m in the money-rich US whilst in the UK in a far worse fight Joshua makes over six times as much against a guy like Takam?
Because the circumstances were different for that fight. As I said earlier, instead of playing armchair account just start listing the fights of this nature that have taken place in the UK and I will respond with US ones. If you don't want to spam the thread then list a few in your initial response.
The circumstances are different for this fight though. That's the entire point.

Name the times in history when a fight was planned between an American and a UK fighter where the UK one was making ten times that domestically that the American was.

You don't understand how these types of fights work.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 09:56**

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:51 Why did peak Tyson box in empty arenas in Tokyo? Tubbs and Douglas?

Money. Same as AJ and Wilder fighting in Dubai.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 10:17**

mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:51 Why did peak Tyson box in empty arenas in Tokyo? Tubbs and Douglas?

The attendance was 51,000 for the Tyson-Tubbs fight and 41,000 for the Tyson-Douglas fight.
Not exactly empty arenas!

Posted: **18 May 2018, 10:23**

Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:52
dirk2686 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:35
Metal Fingers wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:30

Because the circumstances were different for that fight. As I said earlier, instead of playing armchair account just start listing the fights of this nature that have taken place in the UK and I will respond with US ones. If you don't want to spam the thread then list a few in your initial response.
The circumstances are different for this fight though. That's the entire point.

Name the times in history when a fight was planned between an American and a UK fighter where the UK one was making ten times that domestically that the American was.
You don't understand how these types of fights work.

Look - we know what's happened here. We've both asked an essentially rhetorical question. You know money making fights happen in America over Britain, but you also know that there's not really a historical precedent for a champion like Joshua earning so much more than a champion like Wilder.

In a related point, it seems odd that you refer to what Joshua has been doing as treading water. He's won three of the four heavyweight belts in the last two years and earned more than Wilder has done in 40 fights. It's not bad for staying still.

Posted: **18 May 2018, 10:24**

SteveO wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 10:17
mickey1975 wrote: ↑18 May 2018, 09:51 Why did peak Tyson box in empty arenas in Tokyo? Tubbs and Douglas?
The attendance was 51,000 for the Tyson-Tubbs fight and 41,000 for the Tyson-Douglas fight.
Not exactly empty arenas!

Not sold out though so Dirk won’t be happy. The Rumble in the Jungle has less historical value to him than AJ-Takam because of the attendance.

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