BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 18:57 Whatever.

I only disagree with top 5 p4p. I think it's pretty obvious that no mas was the last fight of his prime.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 10:59

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 07:53 I think his absolute peak was palomino and Leonard.

Yes, indeed. The Hands of Stone got two periods: Before "No Mas" and after "No Mas". It's like the great Muhammad Ali, pre-exile and after exile periods.

To me, Duran is a top 5 pound per pound all time great. No doubt about that.

There’s some doubt. Robinson, Greb, Langford, Armstrong, Charles is a popular and common top 5. A strong case is made for all being above Duran. I am not mad at anyone suggesting Duran is top 5 though. He was that good.

But really, it's how own fault why he didn't do it at that level for longer.
When you are rating the very best, you have to some extent nitpick. What is Duran's 2nd, 3rd, 4th best victory? How does it compare to the very best?

The Benitez fight was a fair fight. You can't use the past his prime excuse for that. Getting beat that badly by Hearns counts against him. Obviously, he was a great fighter. You can argue top 10. No way was he top 5. Robinson, Greb, Langford, Leonard, Ali, Armstrong, and Charles were better. Outside of the excuses game, (which we will hear plenty of from elmer for the umpteenth time) there isn't much to argue here. I would put ahead of him a few others that are certainly arguable.

Duran is absolutely an all time great

have a stroll through youtube and make ur own minds up.

force of nature

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 21:00 Duran is absolutely an all time great

have a stroll through youtube and make ur own minds up.

force of nature

No doubt. He may have stretched it a bit late in his career, but he was the greatest lightweight that ever was.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 19:13 But really, it's how own fault why he didn't do it at that level for longer.
When you are rating the very best, you have to some extent nitpick. What is Duran's 2nd, 3rd, 4th best victory? How does it compare to the very best?

The Benitez fight was a fair fight. You can't use the past his prime excuse for that. Getting beat that badly by Hearns counts against him. Obviously, he was a great fighter. You can argue top 10. No way was he top 5. Robinson, Greb, Langford, Leonard, Ali, Armstrong, and Charles were better. Outside of the excuses game, (which we will hear plenty of from elmer for the umpteenth time) there isn't much to argue here. I would put ahead of him a few others that are certainly arguable.

He was out for two years and over 80 fights. I can't see using any losses past Leonard against him. From that point it was icing on the cake.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 22:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 19:13 But really, it's how own fault why he didn't do it at that level for longer.
When you are rating the very best, you have to some extent nitpick. What is Duran's 2nd, 3rd, 4th best victory? How does it compare to the very best?

The Benitez fight was a fair fight. You can't use the past his prime excuse for that. Getting beat that badly by Hearns counts against him. Obviously, he was a great fighter. You can argue top 10. No way was he top 5. Robinson, Greb, Langford, Leonard, Ali, Armstrong, and Charles were better. Outside of the excuses game, (which we will hear plenty of from elmer for the umpteenth time) there isn't much to argue here. I would put ahead of him a few others that are certainly arguable.

He was out for two years and over 80 fights. I can't see using any losses past Leonard against him. From that point it was icing on the cake.

His legacy was well solidified before the Leonard loss.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 18:57 Whatever.

Sugar Ray Leonard was never better than the Hands of Stone. No matter how you look at it. Duran is the best fighter if the last 50 years. I could debate that with anybody in this forum. I have never seen an incredible boxer as the great Roberto Duran!

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 19:06

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 10:59

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 07:53 I think his absolute peak was palomino and Leonard.

Yes, indeed. The Hands of Stone got two periods: Before "No Mas" and after "No Mas". It's like the great Muhammad Ali, pre-exile and after exile periods.

To me, Duran is a top 5 pound per pound all time great. No doubt about that.

There’s some doubt. Robinson, Greb, Langford, Armstrong, Charles is a popular and common top 5. A strong case is made for all being above Duran. I am not mad at anyone suggesting Duran is top 5 though. He was that good.

Roberto Duran was an INCREDIBLE AND AMAZING fighter. I have never seen nothing like him. I mean, the guy was fighting starting at Bantamweight all the way to super middleweight. He was competitive for 22 years. What fighter has been competitive for 22 years my people? Tell me what fighter? I could count it with one finger. Not many.

In my view if watching all the all time greats of boxing, only 3 guys that I consider him better than he: Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson and Sam Langford..... That's it! Just like LeBron James in the NBA. I only see two that were better: Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain.... that's it!

Well, everybody got their own opinion. But the proof is obvious. Duran was incredible!

oogiebe wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 22:14

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 22:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 19:13 But really, it's how own fault why he didn't do it at that level for longer.
When you are rating the very best, you have to some extent nitpick. What is Duran's 2nd, 3rd, 4th best victory? How does it compare to the very best?

The Benitez fight was a fair fight. You can't use the past his prime excuse for that. Getting beat that badly by Hearns counts against him. Obviously, he was a great fighter. You can argue top 10. No way was he top 5. Robinson, Greb, Langford, Leonard, Ali, Armstrong, and Charles were better. Outside of the excuses game, (which we will hear plenty of from elmer for the umpteenth time) there isn't much to argue here. I would put ahead of him a few others that are certainly arguable.

He was out for two years and over 80 fights. I can't see using any losses past Leonard against him. From that point it was icing on the cake.

His legacy was well solidified before the Leonard loss.

Exactly, right. If he would have retired then, he would have at least make it in the hall of fame. By that time he was already a top 50 all time pound per pound great, especially with that win in Montreal.

When he redeemed himself with Davey Moore and again with Iran Barkley in a slugfest, it just enhanced his legacy even more. The Barkley win cemented him with the top 5 all time pound per pound status. It was INCREDIBLE!

oogiebe wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 22:14

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 22:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 19:13 But really, it's how own fault why he didn't do it at that level for longer.
When you are rating the very best, you have to some extent nitpick. What is Duran's 2nd, 3rd, 4th best victory? How does it compare to the very best?

The Benitez fight was a fair fight. You can't use the past his prime excuse for that. Getting beat that badly by Hearns counts against him. Obviously, he was a great fighter. You can argue top 10. No way was he top 5. Robinson, Greb, Langford, Leonard, Ali, Armstrong, and Charles were better. Outside of the excuses game, (which we will hear plenty of from elmer for the umpteenth time) there isn't much to argue here. I would put ahead of him a few others that are certainly arguable.

He was out for two years and over 80 fights. I can't see using any losses past Leonard against him. From that point it was icing on the cake.

His legacy was well solidified before the Leonard loss.

You could put the two Leonards together and still, they weren't better than the Hands of Stone. None of the two Leonards (Benny nor Ray) are top ten pound per pound. No way!

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 22:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 19:13 But really, it's how own fault why he didn't do it at that level for longer.
When you are rating the very best, you have to some extent nitpick. What is Duran's 2nd, 3rd, 4th best victory? How does it compare to the very best?

The Benitez fight was a fair fight. You can't use the past his prime excuse for that. Getting beat that badly by Hearns counts against him. Obviously, he was a great fighter. You can argue top 10. No way was he top 5. Robinson, Greb, Langford, Leonard, Ali, Armstrong, and Charles were better. Outside of the excuses game, (which we will hear plenty of from elmer for the umpteenth time) there isn't much to argue here. I would put ahead of him a few others that are certainly arguable.

He was out for two years and over 80 fights. I can't see using any losses past Leonard against him. From that point it was icing on the cake.

Two years? He had a fight four months before the Benitez fight. This was just 14 months after he lost to Leonard.
He had almost 80 fights. However, he did't have nearly as much mileage on him as this suggests. Take out all early round kos against tomato cans and that number drops dramatically.

cfang wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 06:10 Duran is all time top ten p4p.

Same here. And Floyd Jr., too.

Ray Arcel would probably agree with Elmer's assessment.

When a light weight all time best steps up and beats the best WW and gives what some consider to be the best MW a serious run, he's got to be a top prospect for best of the best.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 16:02 Ray Arcel would probably agree with Elmer's assessment.

When a light weight all time best steps up and beats the best WW and gives what some consider to be the best MW a serious run, he's got to be a top prospect for best of the best.

To me, Duran is the greatest Lightweight Champion of all-time. What he did after moving up, made him one of my top 10 FAVORITE fighters of all-time. Pound for pound? In my top 15-20.

But would Roberto be able to deal with Gans and Leonard?

Nile4000 wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 16:35 But would Roberto be able to deal with Gans and Leonard?

I think so. He was so much physically stronger than either and with his wrestling inside game, he would at worse wear them down and dispatch them late. It's so hard to compare from old footage (especially Gans) but Duran was so unique in so many ways at LW and carried that strength to Welterweight. That's about the best I can figure

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 16:07

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 16:02 Ray Arcel would probably agree with Elmer's assessment.

When a light weight all time best steps up and beats the best WW and gives what some consider to be the best MW a serious run, he's got to be a top prospect for best of the best.

To me, Duran is the greatest Lightweight Champion of all-time. What he did after moving up, made him one of my top 10 FAVORITE fighters of all-time. Pound for pound? In my top 15-20.

In what position do you rank Duran all time pound per pound?

elmersalsa wrote: ↑07 Jan 2019, 05:12

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 16:07

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 16:02 Ray Arcel would probably agree with Elmer's assessment.

When a light weight all time best steps up and beats the best WW and gives what some consider to be the best MW a serious run, he's got to be a top prospect for best of the best.

To me, Duran is the greatest Lightweight Champion of all-time. What he did after moving up, made him one of my top 10 FAVORITE fighters of all-time. Pound for pound? In my top 15-20.

In what position do you rank Duran all time pound per pound?

As I said, 15-20. Maybe higher.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 10:00

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 22:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 19:13 But really, it's how own fault why he didn't do it at that level for longer.
When you are rating the very best, you have to some extent nitpick. What is Duran's 2nd, 3rd, 4th best victory? How does it compare to the very best?

The Benitez fight was a fair fight. You can't use the past his prime excuse for that. Getting beat that badly by Hearns counts against him. Obviously, he was a great fighter. You can argue top 10. No way was he top 5. Robinson, Greb, Langford, Leonard, Ali, Armstrong, and Charles were better. Outside of the excuses game, (which we will hear plenty of from elmer for the umpteenth time) there isn't much to argue here. I would put ahead of him a few others that are certainly arguable.

He was out for two years and over 80 fights. I can't see using any losses past Leonard against him. From that point it was icing on the cake.

Two years? He had a fight four months before the Benitez fight. This was just 14 months after he lost to Leonard.
He had almost 80 fights. However, he did't have nearly as much mileage on him as this suggests. Take out all early round kos against tomato cans and that number drops dramatically.

I don't give credit for wins over tomato cans.

My point was that there is no real excuse for the Benitez loss. He didn't have that much wear and tear. He was still just 31. He was not rusty, since he had been fighting regularly. He lost Benitez should get credit and the loss to Benitez should be considered when rating Duran.

oogiebe wrote: ↑07 Jan 2019, 11:16

elmersalsa wrote: ↑07 Jan 2019, 05:12

oogiebe wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 16:07
To me, Duran is the greatest Lightweight Champion of all-time. What he did after moving up, made him one of my top 10 FAVORITE fighters of all-time. Pound for pound? In my top 15-20.

In what position do you rank Duran all time pound per pound?

As I said, 15-20. Maybe higher.

I would go higher. There are 7 guys who have rock solid cases for being in the Top 10: Ali, Armstrong, Charles, Greb, Langford, Leonard, and Robinson.

Then it gets close with Louis, Moore, Pep, and Duran. (Several others a half step behind.) Three of those four are top 10.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 21:54

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 21:29

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 21:24 At the weigh in Duran said I kill you!!! And Tommy replied you're going down in 2.

I'm re-watching now. Duran looks like he came in with no game plan. Too much smiling. Standing upright; not trying to slip punches. And a bit soft. I haven't watched it in years. And it was really troubling to watch.

No game plan he could have had. Tommy was absolute peak.

Read somewhere that Roberto always seemed to be intimidated by Tommy.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑07 Jan 2019, 17:32

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 21:54

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 21:29
I'm re-watching now. Duran looks like he came in with no game plan. Too much smiling. Standing upright; not trying to slip punches. And a bit soft. I haven't watched it in years. And it was really troubling to watch.

No game plan he could have had. Tommy was absolute peak.

Read somewhere that Roberto always seemed to be intimidated by Tommy.

He looked it in the ring, and I LOOOVE Duran.

I don't think Leonard or Ali have anything close to an ironclad case for top 10. Leonard has some wins over highly regarded guys but there are other guys with big advantages in depth and longevity which are also important.