100 Against The Grain Boxing Opionions

[Abradolf Lincler]

A prime Joe Frazier beats prime George Foreman everytime.

That's gotta take the cake so far. Did you think the undefeated Frazier was completely and totally shot by their first fight?

[DrDuke]

A prime Joe Frazier beats prime George Foreman everytime.

That's gotta take the cake so far. Did you think the undefeated Frazier was completely and totally shot by their first fight?

He obviously wasn't, but probably he had already declined a bit. Some believe, Frazier gave away too much of him in the first Ali fight. Sometimes I think, they're right.

[APerno]

If Floyd Patterson had stayed in the light heavyweight division, he would have been the greatest light heavyweight ever, outside of Ezzard Charles, and maybe Michael Spinks.

Good observation but I don't think it goes against the grain; betting wise I take Patterson over Spinks and lay-off Patterson vs. Charles (a pick 'um). -- Patterson stays a LHW he is in the top five on everyone's list.

[Abradolf Lincler]

A prime Joe Frazier beats prime George Foreman everytime.

That's gotta take the cake so far. Did you think the undefeated Frazier was completely and totally shot by their first fight?

He obviously wasn't, but probably he had already declined a bit. Some believe, Frazier gave away too much of him in the first Ali fight. Sometimes I think, they're right.

That's all good. However, there's a major difference between a fighter that beats Foreman every time and a fighter that gets knocked down 6 times and stopped in 2 rounds. In order to take that MASSIVE leap of faith, you can't think he simply "declined a bit". He would have to be nothing like the fighter he used to be.

[Nile4000]

That's gotta take the cake so far. Did you think the undefeated Frazier was completely and totally shot by their first fight?

He obviously wasn't, but probably he had already declined a bit. Some believe, Frazier gave away too much of him in the first Ali fight. Sometimes I think, they're right.

That's all good. However, there's a major difference between a fighter that beats Foreman every time and a fighter that gets knocked down 6 times and stopped in 2 rounds. In order to take that MASSIVE leap of faith, you can't think he simply "declined a bit". He would have to be nothing like the fighter he used to be.

Exactly. He lost a lot in the FOTC. Probably the reason he didn't fight Mac Foster or Ron Lyle.

[Scypion]

If Floyd Patterson had stayed in the light heavyweight division, he would have been the greatest light heavyweight ever, outside of Ezzard Charles, and maybe Michael Spinks.

Good observation but I don't think it goes against the grain; betting wise I take Patterson over Spinks and lay-off Patterson vs. Charles (a pick 'um). -- Patterson stays a LHW he is in the top five on everyone's list.

I go back a little farther than most on this forum and I remember when Patterson was called a cheese champ and other things for his failure to fight the top contenders like Eddie Machen and Zora Folley after he first won the heavyweight title. This was not really Patterson's fault, but his manager, Cus D'Amato, was keeping Floyd away from boxers that he said were controlled by the corrupt IBC, including Machen and Folley. Machen and Folley were tough, but I think that Patterson would have taken them.

Here is one that I believe will go against the grain, at least by some people. I think that Jimmy Ellis should be in the IBHOF. Floyd Patterson was one of the early members of the IBHOF (2nd year I believe) and deservedly so, but
I think that prime Ellis could have beaten any boxer that Patterson beat. Just my opinion.

Bob Foster is in the IBHOF, but judging how Foster did against heavyweights, I believe that Ellis would have taken him.

[Sidney Carton]

I think that prime Ellis could have beaten any boxer that Patterson beat.

An old Floyd Patterson beat Ellis (in his prime) to a pulp in their fight.

[Scypion]

True that Patterson should have gotten the decision over Ellis. However, I still think that Jimmy Ellis could have beaten anyone that Floyd beat. I would agree that Floyd Patterson was a greater boxer than Jimmy Ellis, but Ellis was a highly underrated fighter in his own right, IMO.

[Abradolf Lincler]

He obviously wasn't, but probably he had already declined a bit. Some believe, Frazier gave away too much of him in the first Ali fight. Sometimes I think, they're right.

That's all good. However, there's a major difference between a fighter that beats Foreman every time and a fighter that gets knocked down 6 times and stopped in 2 rounds. In order to take that MASSIVE leap of faith, you can't think he simply "declined a bit". He would have to be nothing like the fighter he used to be.

Exactly. He lost a lot in the FOTC. Probably the reason he didn't fight Mac Foster or Ron Lyle.

He lost a fair bit, I'll agree. Fighting only twice in the near two years in between Ali and Foreman didn't help matters.

I wouldn't say he was shot by any means, though. Past his peak? Yes. Technically speaking, every fighter is on the decline after they peak (which he did in Manila). Past his prime years, though? With the relative lack of activity post-Ali (and the nature of their clash), I could understand the viewpoint. There's just no evidence, though. He took out his next two nondescript opponents in 4 rounds a piece, as was expected. Had he struggled with either of them, you'd have a stronger case.

More to the point, I just can't get past the styles matchup. Similar to Hearns/Duran. We all agree that Duran was well past his best there, but the nature of their meeting leads one to believe that no version of Duran could've won. Hearns was just a nightmare for him. Same with Foreman/Frazier.

[chrisjs1985]

Carlos Ortiz was the greatest lightweight champion at least of the last fifty years (1968-2018). I realize Duran is the popular choice but not only would I favor Ortiz in a head-to-head match (probably a closely fought trilogy), I think his resume at the weight is deeper. Dethroned a great champion in Joe Brown, a 2-1 series win over Laguna culminating in a marvelous display, repeat victories over hall of fame duo Sugar Ramos and Flash Elorde. Other wins over top drawer fighters like Doug Vailant, Johnny Bizarro, Kenny Lane. Duran has the Buchanan win which was great and the DeJesus wins but the rest is far lower in quality than Ortiz'.

[Sequitorian]

Schmeling was better than Louis and he proved it in the ring ... their second fight meant nothing ...

Schmeling got caught cold in the first round ... it happens ... proves nothing ...

[Abradolf Lincler]

Carlos Ortiz was the greatest lightweight champion at least of the last fifty years (1968-2018). I realize Duran is the popular choice but not only would I favor Ortiz in a head-to-head match (probably a closely fought trilogy), I think his resume at the weight is deeper. Dethroned a great champion in Joe Brown, a 2-1 series win over Laguna culminating in a marvelous display, repeat victories over hall of fame duo Sugar Ramos and Flash Elorde. Other wins over top drawer fighters like Doug Vailant, Johnny Bizarro, Kenny Lane. Duran has the Buchanan win which was great and the DeJesus wins but the rest is far lower in quality than Ortiz'.

He has the better resume at Lightweight. I've always thought so. I just think Duran was a half step above him ability wise. I rate Ortiz right there with Chavez in that regard.

[Sidney Carton]

Carlos Ortiz was the greatest lightweight champion at least of the last fifty years (1968-2018). I realize Duran is the popular choice but not only would I favor Ortiz in a head-to-head match (probably a closely fought trilogy), I think his resume at the weight is deeper. Dethroned a great champion in Joe Brown, a 2-1 series win over Laguna culminating in a marvelous display, repeat victories over hall of fame duo Sugar Ramos and Flash Elorde. Other wins over top drawer fighters like Doug Vailant, Johnny Bizarro, Kenny Lane. Duran has the Buchanan win which was great and the DeJesus wins but the rest is far lower in quality than Ortiz'.

Ortiz was a COMPLETE fighter. He had everything.

[APerno]

Schmeling was better than Louis and he proved it in the ring ... their second fight meant nothing ...

Schmeling got caught cold in the first round ... it happens ... proves nothing ...

Gamblers say "watch out, every great fighter when finished still has one great fight left in him." (e.g. Brown-Norris I) The summer of '36 was Max Schmeling's 'last great night.' -- By '38 Louis blows-out Schmeling in under three ten out of ten times.

[Quantrax]

This one is probably more for casual fans but the notion that George Foreman was giving Muhammad Ali an absolute pasting in the Rumble in the Jungle is not true. There were rarely moments when Ali wasn't in control of the bout and it was only a question time before the stoppage came.