BoxRec

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REAL ATHLETE!:

I believe that the Rock would have his hands full with today's top CW's, much less HW's. He was 186 in his prime and his bulldozing approach would spell disaster with these larger and more skilled fighters. Couldn't see him beating Usyk in any way.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 14:32
Omg, why don't you come up with some examples of a great heavyweight under 200 losing to a heavyweight over 220? Should be dozens over 130 years of boxing. Love to hear about them.

What’s more relevant and pertinent in this debate is how many CWs have had successful careers at HW? After all the CW limit is 200lb and physically they are more on a par with Marciano. If the jump up is so easy why is Holyfield the only one in 40 years to have great success?

There have been many good fighters and successful CWs that could have easily have made the leap up in weight to fight the big boys, that’s where the big money is at isn’t it. Some tried, some had minor success but more often than not they couldn’t cut the mustard at the top level. Why is that?

Johnny Nelson, Carl Thompson, Ezra Sellers, Bert Cooper, Orlin Norris, Dwight Qawi, Ossis Ocasio, Carlos DeLeon, O’Neil Bell, Vassiliy Jirov, Jean-Mark Mormeck, Marco Huck, Tony Bellew etc etc. David Haye had some success but ultimately was soundly beaten when he faced the best of the HWs. So the best modern CWs struggle to have success at HW but smaller fighters from the past can suddenly make the jump without a problem even though some were even smaller than today’s CWs?

marciano is more like a short stubby light heavy or maybe even smw

Wilder looks completely and utterly unbeatable here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQ-h8fFu-s

At 12:50-12:58, rocked by the jab of a 21-10 fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSk6GSYZI5s

Wilder being rocked badly by a guy that didn't last a round with Arreola.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iV9Thb0VCA

But Marciano's short, so Wilder beats him of course.

one side must be getting pretty desperate if they feel the need to continually misrepresent whats being said

its not just about height, im sure rock wouldve beat wilt chamberlain or julius long

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:08 Wilder looks completely and utterly unbeatable here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQ-h8fFu-s

At 12:50-12:58, rocked by the jab of a 21-10 fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSk6GSYZI5s

Wilder being rocked badly by a guy that didn't last a round with Arreola.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iV9Thb0VCA

But Marciano's short, so Wilder beats him of course.

No one said he was unbeatable. Maybe you can explain why no CWs, with the exception of Holyfield, have had any major success at HW in 40 years?

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:15

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:08 Wilder looks completely and utterly unbeatable here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQ-h8fFu-s

At 12:50-12:58, rocked by the jab of a 21-10 fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSk6GSYZI5s

Wilder being rocked badly by a guy that didn't last a round with Arreola.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iV9Thb0VCA

But Marciano's short, so Wilder beats him of course.

No one said he was unbeatable. Maybe you can explain why no CWs, with the exception of Holyfield, have had any major success at HW in 40 years?

They were never cruisers, but Michael Spinks and Michael Moorer both became the Heavyweight Champion of the World.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:21

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:15

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:08 Wilder looks completely and utterly unbeatable here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeQ-h8fFu-s

At 12:50-12:58, rocked by the jab of a 21-10 fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSk6GSYZI5s

Wilder being rocked badly by a guy that didn't last a round with Arreola.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iV9Thb0VCA

But Marciano's short, so Wilder beats him of course.

No one said he was unbeatable. Maybe you can explain why no CWs, with the exception of Holyfield, have had any major success at HW in 40 years?

They were never cruisers, but Michael Spinks and Michael Moorer both became the Heavyweight Champion of the World.

Like Haye neither dominated. They were hardly small either, both 6'2"/6"3 with good 76'/78' reaches. Moorer beat a CW to win the WBO HW title (Bert Cooper) so you could even argue he wasn't fighting a natural HW either. What about the numerous other CWs who were skilled and hard hitting, why have so many had little to no success at HW?

Dwight Qawi is my favourite CW, absolutely brilliant fighter and far more skilled than Marciano. Not such a great HW though.

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:37

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:21

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:15

No one said he was unbeatable. Maybe you can explain why no CWs, with the exception of Holyfield, have had any major success at HW in 40 years?

They were never cruisers, but Michael Spinks and Michael Moorer both became the Heavyweight Champion of the World.

Like Haye neither dominated. They were hardly small either, both 6'2"/6"3 with good 76'/78' reaches. Moorer beat a CW to win the WBO HW title (Bert Cooper) so you could even argue he wasn't fighting a natural HW either. What about the numerous other CWs who were skilled and hard hitting, why have so many had little to no success at HW?

Dwight Qawi is my favourite CW, absolutely brilliant fighter and far more skilled than Marciano. Not such a great HW though.

Neither dominated?1?! One beat Larry Holmes, the other beat Evander Holyfield.

Marciano beat Walcott, Charles and Moore. Wilder has beaten no one anywhere near their class.

Wilder's not even the number one heavyweight in the world.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:57

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:37

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:21

They were never cruisers, but Michael Spinks and Michael Moorer both became the Heavyweight Champion of the World.

Like Haye neither dominated. They were hardly small either, both 6'2"/6"3 with good 76'/78' reaches. Moorer beat a CW to win the WBO HW title (Bert Cooper) so you could even argue he wasn't fighting a natural HW either. What about the numerous other CWs who were skilled and hard hitting, why have so many had little to no success at HW?

Dwight Qawi is my favourite CW, absolutely brilliant fighter and far more skilled than Marciano. Not such a great HW though.

Neither dominated?1?! One beat Larry Holmes, the other beat Evander Holyfield.

Marciano beat Walcott, Charles and Moore. Wilder has beaten no one anywhere near their class.

Wilder's not even the number one heavyweight in the world.

Styles make fights. Spinks was a great fighter who had the height, reach, speed and boxing skill to have some success at HW. He was practically the same size as Holmes too.

Moorer beat an under par Holyfield by MD. Remember he retired after that fight with heart problems after collapsing with dehydration. Something wasn’t right with him in that fight. Again physically Moorer was the same height and weight as Holyfield. Physically a fair matchup. Holyfield stopped him in the rematch.

The main point is the CW division has had one fighter in 40 years who has successfully made the jump to HW, the aforementioned Holyfield. Marciano would have been a CW. Please explain why that is if it has nothing to do with size.

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 19:35

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:57

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:37

Like Haye neither dominated. They were hardly small either, both 6'2"/6"3 with good 76'/78' reaches. Moorer beat a CW to win the WBO HW title (Bert Cooper) so you could even argue he wasn't fighting a natural HW either. What about the numerous other CWs who were skilled and hard hitting, why have so many had little to no success at HW?

Dwight Qawi is my favourite CW, absolutely brilliant fighter and far more skilled than Marciano. Not such a great HW though.

Neither dominated?1?! One beat Larry Holmes, the other beat Evander Holyfield.

Marciano beat Walcott, Charles and Moore. Wilder has beaten no one anywhere near their class.

Wilder's not even the number one heavyweight in the world.

Styles make fights. Spinks was a great fighter who had the height, reach, speed and boxing skill to have some success at HW. He was practically the same size as Holmes too.

Moorer beat an under par Holyfield by MD. Remember he retired after that fight with heart problems after collapsing with dehydration. Something wasn’t right with him in that fight. Again physically Moorer was the same height and weight as Holyfield. Physically a fair matchup. Holyfield stopped him in the rematch.

The main point is the CW division has had one fighter in 40 years who has successfully made the jump to HW, the aforementioned Holyfield. Marciano would have been a CW. Please explain why that is if it has nothing to do with size.

Your main point ignores the two LHW's that I named. Why? Because they didn't compete in the CW division?

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 05:09

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 19:35

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 18:57

Neither dominated?1?! One beat Larry Holmes, the other beat Evander Holyfield.

Marciano beat Walcott, Charles and Moore. Wilder has beaten no one anywhere near their class.

Wilder's not even the number one heavyweight in the world.

Styles make fights. Spinks was a great fighter who had the height, reach, speed and boxing skill to have some success at HW. He was practically the same size as Holmes too.

Moorer beat an under par Holyfield by MD. Remember he retired after that fight with heart problems after collapsing with dehydration. Something wasn’t right with him in that fight. Again physically Moorer was the same height and weight as Holyfield. Physically a fair matchup. Holyfield stopped him in the rematch.

The main point is the CW division has had one fighter in 40 years who has successfully made the jump to HW, the aforementioned Holyfield. Marciano would have been a CW. Please explain why that is if it has nothing to do with size.

Your main point ignores the two LHW's that I named. Why? Because they didn't compete in the CW division?

Eh? I used the CW division because Marciano would be a CW. I explained why Spinks and Moorer had success, they had the size and reach combined with the skill. Styles makes fights.

We are talking about 40 years of CWs yet only one had any major success. Qawi was a great fighter, why did he not dominate the HW division. Why have other very successful CWs not had any success in the HW division?

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 05:26

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 05:09

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 19:35

Styles make fights. Spinks was a great fighter who had the height, reach, speed and boxing skill to have some success at HW. He was practically the same size as Holmes too.

Moorer beat an under par Holyfield by MD. Remember he retired after that fight with heart problems after collapsing with dehydration. Something wasn’t right with him in that fight. Again physically Moorer was the same height and weight as Holyfield. Physically a fair matchup. Holyfield stopped him in the rematch.

The main point is the CW division has had one fighter in 40 years who has successfully made the jump to HW, the aforementioned Holyfield. Marciano would have been a CW. Please explain why that is if it has nothing to do with size.

Your main point ignores the two LHW's that I named. Why? Because they didn't compete in the CW division?

Eh? I used the CW division because Marciano would be a CW. I explained why Spinks and Moorer had success, they had the size and reach combined with the skill. Styles makes fights.

We are talking about 40 years of CWs yet only one had any major success. Qawi was a great fighter, why did he not dominate the HW division. Why have other very successful CWs not had any success in the HW division?

One success? Moorer and Spinks came up from 175, which is more of a leap than CW. That is even more of an achievement, but you discount them from your argument, That's just petty IMO.

astradamus wrote: ↑31 Oct 2018, 13:03 I'd be highly surprised if this would be anything remotely competative, Wilder is far taller, got a much longer range, is bigger in every way.

he still has to box smart. here he is trading a pair of right hands with david haye.



he got hit because when a big man and a shorter man are trading a pair of right hands, the shorter man can go under the right hand the big man is throwing, but the big man cant.

marciano had a big right hand. he had a big right hand because boxing in a crouch put his body weight over his back leg. when he threw his right hand, his body weight moved from his back leg to his front leg, and when he hit you, he was hitting you with all of his body weight.

marciano may not be a big man. but he does have a big right hand.



the more marciano can get you throwing and trading punches, the more exposed you are to being hit by one big right hand, and doubly so for a big man, because they are especially disadvantaged whenever trading a pair of right hands with a shorter man.

having a reach advantage can keep a guy out on the end of your punches and out of range from his punches. but to keep your reach advantage you must have good footwork. you keep a reach advantage with your feet not your arms. even a fifteen inch reach advantage can be taken away by just one foot step. remember this whenever pointing out a reach advantage.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 07:38

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 05:26

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 05:09

Your main point ignores the two LHW's that I named. Why? Because they didn't compete in the CW division?

Eh? I used the CW division because Marciano would be a CW. I explained why Spinks and Moorer had success, they had the size and reach combined with the skill. Styles makes fights.

We are talking about 40 years of CWs yet only one had any major success. Qawi was a great fighter, why did he not dominate the HW division. Why have other very successful CWs not had any success in the HW division?

One success? Moorer and Spinks came up from 175, which is more of a leap than CW. That is even more of an achievement, but you discount them from your argument, That's just petty IMO.

I haven’t discounted them. I’ve explained twice they were physically the size of HWs, 6’2”/6’3” with 76”/78” reaches.. They had skills that allowed them to compete with bigger guys. The same as Holyfield and Haye. If Holyfield was the size of Marciano do you think he would have had the same success? The same question still stands, lots of very good CWs over the last 40 years, only Holyfield made a real success at HW, why is that?

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 09:38

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 07:38

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 05:26

Eh? I used the CW division because Marciano would be a CW. I explained why Spinks and Moorer had success, they had the size and reach combined with the skill. Styles makes fights.

We are talking about 40 years of CWs yet only one had any major success. Qawi was a great fighter, why did he not dominate the HW division. Why have other very successful CWs not had any success in the HW division?

One success? Moorer and Spinks came up from 175, which is more of a leap than CW. That is even more of an achievement, but you discount them from your argument, That's just petty IMO.

I haven’t discounted them. I’ve explained twice they were physically the size of HWs, 6’2”/6’3” with 76”/78” reaches.. They had skills that allowed them to compete with bigger guys. The same as Holyfield and Haye. If Holyfield was the size of Marciano do you think he would have had the same success? The same question still stands, lots of very good CWs over the last 40 years, only Holyfield made a real success at HW, why is that?

Haye moved up from CW and was the #2 heavyweight in the world, which is exactly the same ranking as Wilder.

Yes, and Michael Moorer, Roy Jones and Michael Spinks simply skipped the cruiserweight division and won titles.
Chris Byrd was a small heavyweight who could easily have had a career at cruiserweight. He had some success at heavyweight as well.
Wilder himself is much lighter than most of the other heavyweights.

It's more than the old "styles makes fight cliche". It's how good you are that is the most important thing.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 10:48 Yes, and Michael Moorer, Roy Jones and Michael Spinks simply skipped the cruiserweight division and won titles.
Chris Byrd was a small heavyweight who could easily have had a career at cruiserweight. He had some success at heavyweight as well.
Wilder himself is much lighter than most of the other heavyweights.

It's more than the old "styles makes fight cliche". It's how good you are that is the most important thing.

Your missing the point my friend. The general consensus seems to be that Marciano could easily beat Wilder and his size wouldn’t be a issue. What I’m saying is Marciano would be a CW today, a small one at that, and only one CW in history has had major success at HW. Holyfield had the height, reach and body frame to add bulk, combined with good boxing ability, so he could compete with the bigger HWs. The smaller HWs in recent times have not only had the physique to be competitive they had combinations of speed, elusiveness, power or good boxing ability. Speed and power is always a dangerous mix.

Tony Bellew fought Haye at HW but always said he wasn’t a HW and neither was Haye. Bellew point blank refused to fight AJ stating he was too big. He said at one point he would fight Wilder and then changed his mind after meeting him and said he could see how big he was and knew he stood no chance. Bellew also said he would fight the biggest of the three, Tyson Fury, but qualified that statement by saying Fury wasn’t a KO puncher so felt he would have more success against him. He also said he wanted the fight straight away to take advantage of Fury’s absence from the ring and wouldn’t fight him later down the line as it was all about “timing”. Bellew isn’t small, he’s 6’3”, but he is a CW not a HW. That’s the difference. You can have good skills like Qawi but if you are naturally a small guy then it gets harder the bigger your opponent naturally is.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 10:15

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 09:38

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 07:38

One success? Moorer and Spinks came up from 175, which is more of a leap than CW. That is even more of an achievement, but you discount them from your argument, That's just petty IMO.

I haven’t discounted them. I’ve explained twice they were physically the size of HWs, 6’2”/6’3” with 76”/78” reaches.. They had skills that allowed them to compete with bigger guys. The same as Holyfield and Haye. If Holyfield was the size of Marciano do you think he would have had the same success? The same question still stands, lots of very good CWs over the last 40 years, only Holyfield made a real success at HW, why is that?

Haye moved up from CW and was the #2 heavyweight in the world, which is exactly the same ranking as Wilder.

Am I missing the point as well?

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 12:13

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 10:15

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 09:38

I haven’t discounted them. I’ve explained twice they were physically the size of HWs, 6’2”/6’3” with 76”/78” reaches.. They had skills that allowed them to compete with bigger guys. The same as Holyfield and Haye. If Holyfield was the size of Marciano do you think he would have had the same success? The same question still stands, lots of very good CWs over the last 40 years, only Holyfield made a real success at HW, why is that?

Haye moved up from CW and was the #2 heavyweight in the world, which is exactly the same ranking as Wilder.

Am I missing the point as well?

Clearly as no one mentioned rankings.

Controversial wrote: ↑01 Nov 2018, 16:05
What’s more relevant and pertinent in this debate is how many CWs have had successful careers at HW? After all the CW limit is 200lb and physically they are more on a par with Marciano. If the jump up is so easy why is Holyfield the only one in 40 years to have great success?

No it isn't, you total retard.

'Fighters the same frame & weight must therefore be of a similar quality' : repeat facile argument for all eternity.

Imamu Mayfield= Rocky Marciano

Why don't you list the number of fighters 6'5'' and above who have had top level success in pro boxing, 1880s-present. You wouldn't be able to find 10, and one of them is Wilder, who tellingly has been nursed along and carefully protected from the catastrophic LKO that is now on the very near horizon.

If being a giant is so beneficial, why haven't they always dominated? Are they so much more talented now? Deontay Wilder falls over himself, literally swings himself off balance like a sub novice amateur, any time he hurts a man. Is this a newly discovered stratosphere of ring technique? Tyson Fury on the floor vs old middling cruiser Cunningham, Valuev jellied by beefed up cruiser Haye--these giants are the best ever! No one can hurt them! Except the cruisers that do!

I think the point is the big heavyweights have improved considerably from previous eras. In the recent 20+ years they have consistently been the best fighters at heavyweight (Lennox Lewis, Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, Tyson Fury, and now Anthony Joshua). In prior eras they rarely even broke into the top 10.

I can't see much case for Haye ever being number 2. Vitali and Povetkin would both be ahead of him.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑02 Nov 2018, 13:44 I think the point is the big heavyweights have improved considerably from previous eras. In the recent 20+ years they have consistently been the best fighters at heavyweight (Lennox Lewis, Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, Tyson Fury, and now Anthony Joshua). In prior eras they rarely even broke into the top 10.

Sensible post. Thanks!