BoxRec

Nile4000 wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 17:14

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 09:13

Nile4000 wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 17:37

You could make a case for him, arguably.

Don't see the argument.

He destroyed Cuevas and Duran, and up to around 30, 31, only had lost his two biggest fights. There is some case there, if not minor.

He did a lot more than that. No case for Chavez.

Chavez was older against Randall than Hearns was against Barkley and had far more fights, I think one could reasonably argue he was past his prime. That's not the case with Hearns against Barkley.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 01:35 Chavez was older against Randall than Hearns was against Barkley and had far more fights, I think one could reasonably argue he was past his prime. That's not the case with Hearns against Barkley.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 17:14

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 09:13

Nile4000 wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 17:37

You could make a case for him, arguably.

Don't see the argument.

He destroyed Cuevas and Duran, and up to around 30, 31, only had lost his two biggest fights. There is some case there, if not minor.

Thomas Hearns lost the 2 biggest fights of his career, though. That should count against him.

It should counts against him, but losing to to great fighters like that don't hurt as much as losing to Barkley.
He also had the big wins over great fighters like Duran and Benitez, as well as wins over very good fighters like Cuevas and Hill. You have to take that all into consideration; the good , the bad and the in between.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 11:38 It should counts against him, but losing to to great fighters like that don't hurt as much as losing to Barkley.
He also had the big wins over great fighters like Duran and Benitez, as well as wins over very good fighters like Cuevas and Hill. You have to take that all into consideration; the good , the bad and the in between.

Fair points Alp!

elmersalsa wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 05:30

Nile4000 wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 17:14

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 09:13
Don't see the argument.

He destroyed Cuevas and Duran, and up to around 30, 31, only had lost his two biggest fights. There is some case there, if not minor.

Thomas Hearns lost the 2 biggest fights of his career, though. That should count against him.

It does, but a lot of what Hearns accomplished keeps him in the conversation. Personally, I am against Hearns for the reasons you mentioned, but I give him his props and recognize that those positives keep him in.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 18:26

Nile4000 wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 17:14

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 09:13
Don't see the argument.

He destroyed Cuevas and Duran, and up to around 30, 31, only had lost his two biggest fights. There is some case there, if not minor.

He did a lot more than that. No case for Chavez.

Julio did beat some good fighters, that may have not been megaforces, but they were legit.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 11:56

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 18:26

Nile4000 wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 17:14
He destroyed Cuevas and Duran, and up to around 30, 31, only had lost his two biggest fights. There is some case there, if not minor.

He did a lot more than that. No case for Chavez.

Julio did beat some good fighters, that may have not been megaforces, but they were legit.

Who said he didn't?

elmersalsa wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 05:30

Nile4000 wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 17:14

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 09:13
Don't see the argument.

He destroyed Cuevas and Duran, and up to around 30, 31, only had lost his two biggest fights. There is some case there, if not minor.

Thomas Hearns lost the 2 biggest fights of his career, though. That should count against him.

If Chavez fought equal talents to Leonard and Hagler he'd have lost his two biggest fights too. In fact most welterweight greats in history would lose to both. Would Chavez defeat equal talents to Benitez and Duran (even the 154 version)? I'm not so sure.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 14:30

elmersalsa wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 05:30

Nile4000 wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 17:14
He destroyed Cuevas and Duran, and up to around 30, 31, only had lost his two biggest fights. There is some case there, if not minor.

Thomas Hearns lost the 2 biggest fights of his career, though. That should count against him.

If Chavez fought equal talents to Leonard and Hagler he'd have lost his two biggest fights too. In fact most welterweight greats in history would lose to both. Would Chavez defeat equal talents to Benitez and Duran (even the 154 version)? I'm not so sure.

IT's a good point. Losing to two of the ATG''s is nothing to be ashamed of. Most ATG's lost some fights. Hearns was always referred to in the same discussions as Leonard and Hagler (and Duran) in ATG discussions during that period. Hearns was so very exciting and used his leverage to devastating finishes, and at all those weight classes. He beat many of the top fighters of his time and many in devastating fashion.

Chavez did lose his two biggest fights, Whitaker and Taylor. He just got help.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 15:08 Chavez did lose his two biggest fights, Whitaker and Taylor. He just got help.

Definitely agree on Taylor...I remember watching that fight. I was such a big fan of JCC that I was happy at the end! It was a gift. Steele sucked that one through a hose. I'd have to go back and re-watch the Sweet Pea draw. I don't remember it being that obvious, but my 'fandum' may have gotten the better of me.

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 15:12

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 15:08 Chavez did lose his two biggest fights, Whitaker and Taylor. He just got help.

Definitely agree on Taylor...I remember watching that fight. I was such a big fan of JCC that I was happy at the end! It was a gift. Steele sucked that one through a hose. I'd have to go back and re-watch the Sweet Pea draw. I don't remember it being that obvious, but my 'fandum' may have gotten the better of me.

I always believed Taylor lost that fight because he decided to slug with Chavez, he took some punishment in that bout despite being ahead on the cards, I personally don't care whether people thought the fight was stopped early, that decision was Steele's to make and he has to make it in the moment.

Chavez had a long career. Yes he fought dozens of stiffs whcih really don't mean anything. He also lacks one really great win. However, he does have lot of very good wins- Lockridge, Mayweather (2x), Rosario, Haugen, and Camacho. Several others a notch or two below that.

Is that enough to over come Hearn's career? Ultimately, that is what it comes down to.

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 15:12

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 15:08 Chavez did lose his two biggest fights, Whitaker and Taylor. He just got help.

Definitely agree on Taylor...I remember watching that fight. I was such a big fan of JCC that I was happy at the end! It was a gift. Steele sucked that one through a hose. I'd have to go back and re-watch the Sweet Pea draw. I don't remember it being that obvious, but my 'fandum' may have gotten the better of me.

Must have, huge robbery. Tremendous valor in that Taylor fight but it was clearly a job. Whitaker snuffed him out and made him hesitant to punch.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 16:47 Chavez had a long career. Yes he fought dozens of stiffs whcih really don't mean anything. He also lacks one really great win. However, he does have lot of very good wins- Lockridge, Mayweather (2x), Rosario, Haugen, and Camacho. Several others a notch or two below that.

Is that enough to over come Hearn's career? Ultimately, that is what it comes down to.

I don't see how it does. Tommy had plenty of those wins too as well as a great loss to Leonard.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 17:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 16:47 Chavez had a long career. Yes he fought dozens of stiffs whcih really don't mean anything. He also lacks one really great win. However, he does have lot of very good wins- Lockridge, Mayweather (2x), Rosario, Haugen, and Camacho. Several others a notch or two below that.

Is that enough to over come Hearn's career? Ultimately, that is what it comes down to.

I don't see how it does. Tommy had plenty of those wins too as well as a great loss to Leonard.

In hindsight, Hearns fought in more risky fights than most fighters in history, probably. He fought everyone that would fight him and never seemed to be 'matched' for safety purposes. He has given us a huge amount of memorable performances and fights we still talk about this day. Duran; Cuevas; Hagler; Barkley; Leonard; Kinchen; Benitez; Hill; et al.

Virtually all of Chavez's losses/controversial wins/draws occur from 1993 onwards. After he had scored all his best wins.
How would you justify rating him behind Hearns had he retired in 1992? That way he has all his great wins and no losses.

He'd always rate behind hearns. Didn't do as much. He was p4p #1 when he boiled Whitaker down to 141 or 142 and he got schooled. Never happened to hearns. Chavez was great in a top 50 way, he's vastly overrated.

The Whittaker fight also occured at welterweight a division in which Chavez never scored any meaningful wins and which seems to have been well above his best weight. I'm not sure its especially relevant given no one rates him highly at that weight anyway. A bit like Duran losing at middleweight.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 22:53 The Whittaker fight also occured at welterweight a division in which Chavez never scored any meaningful wins and which seems to have been well above his best weight. I'm not sure its especially relevant given no one rates him highly at that weight anyway. A bit like Duran losing at middleweight.

It still counts. Hearns had the better career and fought so many ATG's, it's hard for me to rate JCC over him. Hearns was fortunate to be in an amazing era, but remember he fought successfully in so many weight classes and faced so many top fighters of the time in each, that on its own is worthy of greatness.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 22:53 The Whittaker fight also occured at welterweight a division in which Chavez never scored any meaningful wins and which seems to have been well above his best weight. I'm not sure its especially relevant given no one rates him highly at that weight anyway. A bit like Duran losing at middleweight.

Lol, it was a catch weight.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 17:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 16:47 Chavez had a long career. Yes he fought dozens of stiffs whcih really don't mean anything. He also lacks one really great win. However, he does have lot of very good wins- Lockridge, Mayweather (2x), Rosario, Haugen, and Camacho. Several others a notch or two below that.

Is that enough to over come Hearn's career? Ultimately, that is what it comes down to.

I don't see how it does. Tommy had plenty of those wins too as well as a great loss to Leonard.

Julio Cesar Chavez had more fights, more longevity and beat more champions. In the biggest fights of their career, in their PRIMES, Chavez won 2 outta 3 (Edwin Rosario, Meldrick Taylor, and Pernell Whitaker), while Thomas Hearns lost the 2 biggest fights of his career (Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvelous).

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Jan 2019, 11:07

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 17:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 16:47 Chavez had a long career. Yes he fought dozens of stiffs whcih really don't mean anything. He also lacks one really great win. However, he does have lot of very good wins- Lockridge, Mayweather (2x), Rosario, Haugen, and Camacho. Several others a notch or two below that.

Is that enough to over come Hearn's career? Ultimately, that is what it comes down to.

I don't see how it does. Tommy had plenty of those wins too as well as a great loss to Leonard.

Julio Cesar Chavez had more fights, more longevity and beat more champions. In the biggest fights of their career, in their PRIMES, Chavez won 2 outta 3 (Edwin Rosario, Meldrick Taylor, and Pernell Whitaker), while Thomas Hearns lost the 2 biggest fights of his career (Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvelous).