Fight by Fight: Tyson Fury

[pound per pound]

HomicideHenry
With the Nicolai Valuev thread and the Joe Choynski thread serving as an inspiration, why not a breakdown of the most recent lineal heavyweight champion--- and work backwards all the way to Gentleman Jim Corbett the first heavyweight champion who was ever filmed.

Thanks. Never saw his debut, the KO was a low blow. Catching up the McDermott match, that was a bloody show. John desevered to win that one.

[HomicideHenry]

If Fury sticks to his word from his recent interviews he'll be fighting for a while to come, and he may well wind up facing all those guys before it's all said and done.

Of course his word changes with the seasons.

You have somewhat of a point with the Usyk/Ali size comparison, but stylistically they're not very similar.

I will say this though. I'd already pick Tyson Fury to beat Mike Tyson in a hypothetical dream match. Mike Tyson always struggled with tall guys, and the ones that beat him weren't as good as Fury.

So basically Mike Tyson would have a puncher's chance against Fury, but otherwise he'd lose most rounds and drop a UD.

Also I think Wilder and his team may be smart enough to know that Anthony Joshua is a much SAFER fight for them than Andy Ruiz. A bigger one too.

Wilder vs AJ is the biggest Heavyweight fight that can be made that doesn't involve Fury.

And for the record I'm not saying Wilder is ducking Andy Ruiz or anything either. It's just, he's under no obligation to fight him, and why would he take him on instead of AJ when AJ is more beatable and a bigger money fight.

Ruiz obviously has a lot of flaws, but he's tough as sh*t, and if Wilder can't knock him out. Which I think is a strong possibility. He can't outbox him either.

No, stylistically they are not similar but then again very few fighters ever fought exactly like Muhammad Ali did either. For good reason as most simply were not as fast as Muhammad Ali to get away with the mistakes that he made in the ring.

However the sentiment is still the same that the Ukrainian is a much smaller heavyweight in comparison to most people in the division even though he is not a small man historically speaking; nevertheless his strengths are the same ones that Ali has which is hand and foot speed.

Usyk is more in line with a Gene Tunney type of boxer than anything else, where speed and ring IQ and skills carries him far. If Tyson Fury is able to nullify the ukrainians strengths and beats him comfortably (ie, unanimous decision) or even easily (ie, knockout) I think it lends credibility to the argument that Tyson Fury would have had a strong chance of beating somebody like Muhammad Ali especially when you figure that many people consider Usyk already hall of fame material and one of the pound for pound greats of this era.

Now if the match is pretty competitive and it takes Tyson Fury quite a bit of effort to either win the decision or to get the stoppage one might make the case that Tyson Fury is only the best man of his era and a possible top 10 all-time great heavyweight, but that he probably would have lost to the upper half of the top 10.

Then again one might point out that I might be a tad bit harsh on Fury because if he struggles with the Ukrainian then I'm really down playing Usyk's overall worth and abilities as a fighter, but personally I can't rate the Ukrainian too highly simply on the basis of defeating Anthony Joshua twice considering his flaws and weaknesses. I would say the ukrainians achievement is on par with maybe Michael Spinks defeating Larry Holmes, but it's not in the same caliber of achievement as Evander Holyfield winning and defending the heavyweight title multiple times.

[gilgamesh]

His Heavyweight resume isn't yet on par with Holyfield's this can't be argued, but if beats Fury, and racks up another title defense or two. I'd say it is.

His Cruiserweight record is superior to Holyfield's in my opinion or at least every bit as good.

[Ambling Alp II]

I beg to differ Alp, when so many people are already saying that the Ukrainian is the greatest Cruiserweight of all time ahead of Evander Holyfield. The man is physically bigger, albeit by an inch and ten or so pounds, than Muhammad Ali was so I figure if Fury beats Usyk who relies heavily on foot movement and speed then it gives more credibility to the argument that Tyson Fury could have defeated somebody like Muhammad Ali who relied heavily on foot movement and speed also.

I'm more than aware it's highly unlikely there would be four major fights in one year out of any champion regardless of weight class these days, but I reckon in that 2023-2024 time frame we could get all of those fights or some combination of them along with someone like Andy Ruiz thrown into the mix.

Wilder 4 would only make any sense if Wilder fought Joshua and defeated Joshua. There are some rumors floating about that Joshua and Wilder may meet each other in the ring since Wilder seems to have very little interest in facing Andy Ruiz in a wbc number one contenders match.

In a perfect world Fury beats Usyk and defeats him in a rematch, then faces Joshua, then he retires after matches with Ruiz or Joyce. But as we all know boxing is not so cut and dry but I'm happy it seems all systems are a go for the undisputed heavyweight title fight between Tyson Fury and Oleksandr Usyk.

If Fury beats Usyk, one could make an argument that he doesn't need fights with Joshua or anyone else after that point considering the Ukrainian already defeated Joshua as did Andy Ruiz. So it would kind of be a foregone conclusion to assume that Fury would beat him as well.

True one could bring up the fact that just because fighter A defeated fighter B doesn't mean that he can beat fighter C because fighter C lost to fighters A and B, kind of like the game of musical chairs between Ali and Foreman and Frazier or Hagler and Duran and Hearns and Leonard.

But considering this is a division that is not as deep as the 1990s or the 1970s I think it's a safe assumption that if Tyson Fury defeats the Ukrainian most likely he would defeat Joshua as well especially when you consider Joshua has already lost before three times.

Remember less is more sometimes.

No Usyk is not as good as Holyfield. Not arguable.
Most of the rest is jibber jabber.

[Ambling Alp II]

His Heavyweight resume isn't yet on par with Holyfield's this can't be argued, but if beats Fury, and racks up another title defense or two. I'd say it is.

His Cruiserweight record is superior to Holyfield's in my opinion or at least every bit as good.

Come on. The win over Qawi is better than anything Usyk did. Just watch the fights. Holyfield was clearly better. Not a dig at Usyk, but he ain't no Holyfield.

If Usyk beats Fury, yes that makes him look better than he does now. Another title defense or two? Matters who it's against. You can always find a stiff to beat.

[margaret thatcher]

james toney beats 1 top 20 cruiser and is more accomplished at the weight than undisputed lineal champ usyk.without all those 10 round fighters i dont think usyk could ever rise too high

[gilgamesh]

His Heavyweight resume isn't yet on par with Holyfield's this can't be argued, but if beats Fury, and racks up another title defense or two. I'd say it is.

His Cruiserweight record is superior to Holyfield's in my opinion or at least every bit as good.

Come on. The win over Qawi is better than anything Usyk did. Just watch the fights. Holyfield was clearly better. Not a dig at Usyk, but he ain't no Holyfield.

If Usyk beats Fury, yes that makes him look better than he does now. Another title defense or two? Matters who it's against. You can always find a stiff to beat.

Like Old Holmes or Bert Cooper?

If he beats Fury along with the AJ wins. His Heavyweight title record is already closing in on Holyfield's fast.

I'll give you that Qawi is bigger than any 1 of Usyk's wins, but ultimately their accomplishment was about the same. Usyk beat everybody there was to beat in his Cruiserweight division just as Holyfield did in his, and I'd say other than Qawi the level of guys that Usyk beat were on par with Holyfield's cruiserweight wins.

Like Breidis I'd say is 2nd only to Qawi out of both of their Cruiserweight resumes.

[margaret thatcher]

His Heavyweight resume isn't yet on par with Holyfield's this can't be argued, but if beats Fury, and racks up another title defense or two. I'd say it is.

His Cruiserweight record is superior to Holyfield's in my opinion or at least every bit as good.

Come on. The win over Qawi is better than anything Usyk did. Just watch the fights. Holyfield was clearly better. Not a dig at Usyk, but he ain't no Holyfield.

If Usyk beats Fury, yes that makes him look better than he does now. Another title defense or two? Matters who it's against. You can always find a stiff to beat.

Like Old Holmes or Bert Cooper?

If he beats Fury along with the AJ wins. His Heavyweight title record is already closing in on Holyfield's fast.

I'll give you that Qawi is bigger than any 1 of Usyk's wins, but ultimately their accomplishment was about the same. Usyk beat everybody there was to beat in his Cruiserweight division just as Holyfield did in his, and I'd say other than Qawi the level of guys that Usyk beat were on par with Holyfield's cruiserweight wins.

Like Breidis I'd say is 2nd only to Qawi out of both of their Cruiserweight resumes.

alp rates james toney's cruiser career above usyk's , he;s a nutjob on this topic and refuses to give active fighters credit even when they are doing everything that can be asked from them

[gilgamesh]

Toney is one of my all time favorite fighters, but the top 2 all time Cruiserweights are undoubtedly Usyk and Holyfield. They're 1 and 1a.

To me that's not debatable. You can argue who is really #1 sure, but those 2 guys are the Top 2. No doubt about it.

[margaret thatcher]

nope! according to alp toney simply beating jirov trumps usyk's whole cruiser career . doesnt matter that vassily was the only top 20 cruiser he ever beat, that he never unified or made a title defense, that jirov was no more accomplished than briedis or gassiev, etc. james mostly feasted on the mediocre usa cruiser scene and studs like mike rush and jason robinson. omg so many '10 round fighters!'

shows you what type of guy you're dealing with trying to argue usyk's case here

[Ambling Alp II]

His Heavyweight resume isn't yet on par with Holyfield's this can't be argued, but if beats Fury, and racks up another title defense or two. I'd say it is.

His Cruiserweight record is superior to Holyfield's in my opinion or at least every bit as good.

Come on. The win over Qawi is better than anything Usyk did. Just watch the fights. Holyfield was clearly better. Not a dig at Usyk, but he ain't no Holyfield.

If Usyk beats Fury, yes that makes him look better than he does now. Another title defense or two? Matters who it's against. You can always find a stiff to beat.

Like Old Holmes or Bert Cooper?

If he beats Fury along with the AJ wins. His Heavyweight title record is already closing in on Holyfield's fast.

I'll give you that Qawi is bigger than any 1 of Usyk's wins, but ultimately their accomplishment was about the same. Usyk beat everybody there was to beat in his Cruiserweight division just as Holyfield did in his, and I'd say other than Qawi the level of guys that Usyk beat were on par with Holyfield's cruiserweight wins.

Like Breidis I'd say is 2nd only to Qawi out of both of their Cruiserweight resumes.

I don't give Holyfield much credit for beating old Holmes and certainly not Cooper.

However, he beat Bowe and Tyson. Both were much better than Fury and Joshua.

As for cruiser weights, you can't just say "other than Qawi it's about the same. You can't just throw out a huge win and then say it's even. You have to count the huge win. A fighter's biggest win is the first thing you should look at; not something that you throw out. Usyk simply never had to fight anyone like that.

Beating "everyone there is" in one era doesn't always equal beating everyone there is in another.

[gilgamesh]

Come on. The win over Qawi is better than anything Usyk did. Just watch the fights. Holyfield was clearly better. Not a dig at Usyk, but he ain't no Holyfield.

If Usyk beats Fury, yes that makes him look better than he does now. Another title defense or two? Matters who it's against. You can always find a stiff to beat.

Like Old Holmes or Bert Cooper?

If he beats Fury along with the AJ wins. His Heavyweight title record is already closing in on Holyfield's fast.

I'll give you that Qawi is bigger than any 1 of Usyk's wins, but ultimately their accomplishment was about the same. Usyk beat everybody there was to beat in his Cruiserweight division just as Holyfield did in his, and I'd say other than Qawi the level of guys that Usyk beat were on par with Holyfield's cruiserweight wins.

Like Breidis I'd say is 2nd only to Qawi out of both of their Cruiserweight resumes.

I don't give Holyfield much credit for beating old Holmes and certainly not Cooper.

However, he beat Bowe and Tyson. Both were much better than Fury and Joshua.

As for cruiser weights, you can't just say "other than Qawi it's about the same. You can't just throw out a huge win and then say it's even. You have to count the huge win. A fighter's biggest win is the first thing you should look at; not something that you throw out. Usyk simply never had to fight anyone like that.

Beating "everyone there is" in one era doesn't always equal beating everyone there is in another.

I mean he became the Undisputed Champion of the Cruiserweight division by winning the World Boxing Super Series, and then the guy he beat in the Final Bout of that Tournament won the 2nd Tournament in the Cruiserweight division beating everyone else.

So Mairis Breidis. The guy that Usyk beat to win the WBSS and unify the Cruiserweight title. Is right there with Qawi, and frankly his Cruiserweight resume is BETTER than Qawi's.

Breidis lost to Usyk, and then cleaned out the division himself since Usyk left it. That would make Usyk's win over him pretty goddamn significant wouldn't you say?

[margaret thatcher]

what dont you get bruh, you're dealing with a guy who thinks toney beating jirov (his only win vs a top 20 cruiser) is better than usyk's whole undisputed + lineal cruiser career where he beat all the other top champs and contenders in the division, made 6 defenses to toney's 0, etc


hell, im sure james warring and uriah grant rank higher lol

[HomicideHenry]

I think what Alp can't conceive is that somebody can have a better resume or looks better on film than somebody else, but can still lose to the likes of a Tyson Fury.

Mike Tyson was a damn good heavyweight who had the potential of being a top 10 all time great, and he certainly was more entertaining to watch on film, but I can't really see him doing much with Tyson Fury unless he landed the proverbial lucky shot.

The same goes with other past good or great heavyweights. But because of their size, and their own flaws and weaknesses as well, they would struggle with a 6 ft 9, 270+ switch hitter who is reasonably fast for his size who also has a very good mind inside the ring. Not to mention the fact that despite Tyson Fury's appearance he can box or brawl for 12 rounds, so somebody would have to be continuously bringing their A game.

That being said I have said on the Forum in the past that I believe the likes of George Foreman and Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes would have been highly problematic for Tyson Fury because they were not only all-time great caliber opposition but they were able to both box and punch. So I think of all the top 10 all-time greats those would have been the ones that would have most likely have beaten Tyson Fury.

But I can't see someone like Joe Louis or someone like Muhammad Ali doing much with Tyson Fury. Not only were they very small in comparison, but they never quite fought a man who was a combination of size and power and skills and conditioning. Don't get me wrong they would have still been competitive but I think that Tyson Fury would have neutralized their strengths.

I think a guy like Evander Holyfield would have been more problematic for Tyson Fury because he was a bit more diverse in my opinion than Muhammad Ali and had quite a lot of success against much bigger men who were skilled. Sure Muhammad Ali was faster than Evander Holyfield but Ali did a lot of unnecessary movements, and it wasn't like Ali was going toe to toe with people.

He was mostly throwing jabs and doing quick bursts of flurries, whereas a guy like Evander Holyfield did not only that but he also got in and dug down deep throwing in a lot of combinations in close. Ali wasn't an infighter, and that would have been necessary to have been able to defeat a guy like Tyson Fury in my view.

Joe Louis was deadly dangerous from the waist up but from my perspective he was just too slow on his feet and would have been catching jabs. Most of the giants that he fought were just big lumps. I don't think Tyson Fury would have ever given him the opportunity to have ever got set to throw lightning fast combinations. Of course people can disagree with me all they want to and that's fine that's part of the fun about boxing anyway.

[DrDuke]

what dont you get bruh, you're dealing with a guy who thinks toney beating jirov (his only win vs a top 20 cruiser) is better than usyk's whole undisputed + lineal cruiser career where he beat all the other top champs and contenders in the division, made 6 defenses to toney's 0, etc


hell, im sure james warring and uriah grant rank higher lol

Lol at someone still taking that wacko seriously.

[Ambling Alp II]

Like Old Holmes or Bert Cooper?

If he beats Fury along with the AJ wins. His Heavyweight title record is already closing in on Holyfield's fast.

I'll give you that Qawi is bigger than any 1 of Usyk's wins, but ultimately their accomplishment was about the same. Usyk beat everybody there was to beat in his Cruiserweight division just as Holyfield did in his, and I'd say other than Qawi the level of guys that Usyk beat were on par with Holyfield's cruiserweight wins.

Like Breidis I'd say is 2nd only to Qawi out of both of their Cruiserweight resumes.

I don't give Holyfield much credit for beating old Holmes and certainly not Cooper.

However, he beat Bowe and Tyson. Both were much better than Fury and Joshua.

As for cruiser weights, you can't just say "other than Qawi it's about the same. You can't just throw out a huge win and then say it's even. You have to count the huge win. A fighter's biggest win is the first thing you should look at; not something that you throw out. Usyk simply never had to fight anyone like that.

Beating "everyone there is" in one era doesn't always equal beating everyone there is in another.

I mean he became the Undisputed Champion of the Cruiserweight division by winning the World Boxing Super Series, and then the guy he beat in the Final Bout of that Tournament won the 2nd Tournament in the Cruiserweight division beating everyone else.

So Mairis Breidis. The guy that Usyk beat to win the WBSS and unify the Cruiserweight title. Is right there with Qawi, and frankly his Cruiserweight resume is BETTER than Qawi's.

Breidis lost to Usyk, and then cleaned out the division himself since Usyk left it. That would make Usyk's win over him pretty goddamn significant wouldn't you say?

Resume? The cruiserweight division has never been a strong division. It's mostly a stepping stone to the heavyweight or for guys who can make 175.division. The heavyweight division has been around about 100 years longer. Nobody has a phenomenal resume at cruiserweight.

Was beating Briedis harder to do than beating Qawi? Of course not. We can dance around this all that we want, but in the end it comes down to that.

As for Usyk's career, is he ever going to be called out for fighting so infrequently?
The guy has 20 fights in his entire career. That's a bit ridiculous. Leonard gets criticized for not having enough; he had 40,

He has had a handful of fights at heavyweight. The only guy worth mentioning is Joshua who is every limited. Holyfield beat several fighters that were better; a couple that were light years better.

If it even happens, a win over Fury would raise Usyk's stock. A win for Fury over Usyk would raise his. Wouldn't make either one of them close to Holyfield; and nowhere near Ali.

[gilgamesh]

Yeah it would make either one of them close to Holyfield or even above him. Holyfield did not beat every big name of his era. If Fury or Usyk do, then that means they did something that he couldn't.

[margaret thatcher]

only 20 fights? just modelling himself after the great james jefferies, one of alp's faves

i suppose he could've added more '10 round fighters' though. like instead of winning 7 cruiser title fights, beating unified champs, etc to become lineal + undisputed and clean out the division.......he could've just fought 30 middling c- level opponents to pad his volume. i know that would've been highly respected here.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yeah it would make either one of them close to Holyfield or even above him. Holyfield did not beat every big name of his era. If Fury or Usyk do, then that means they did something that he couldn't.

No way in hell.
It matters who the big names are. Some eras are much better than other's. Holyfield fought in a great era. Usyk's era sucks.

Hollyfield beat Riddick Bowe. Riddick Bowe was miles above anyone Joshua and Fury.
Holyfield beat Mike Tyson. Tyson was miles above Joshua and Fury. Those guys struggled with an ancient glass jaw Klitschko.

There are multiple other guys that Holyfield beat that were better than Joshua.

You also have to use commonsense and actually watch the fights. There is no way that Usyk looks better that Holyfield near his best.

Guess we are going to give Usyk a free pass for fight so rarely?

[gilgamesh]

Yeah it would make either one of them close to Holyfield or even above him. Holyfield did not beat every big name of his era. If Fury or Usyk do, then that means they did something that he couldn't.

No way in hell.
It matters who the big names are. Some eras are much better than other's. Holyfield fought in a great era. Usyk's era sucks.

Hollyfield beat Riddick Bowe. Riddick Bowe was miles above anyone Joshua and Fury.
Holyfield beat Mike Tyson. Tyson was miles above Joshua and Fury. Those guys struggled with an ancient glass jaw Klitschko.

There are multiple other guys that Holyfield beat that were better than Joshua.

You also have to use commonsense and actually watch the fights. There is no way that Usyk looks better that Holyfield near his best.

Guess we are going to give Usyk a free pass for fight so rarely?

Tyson Fury's career already surpasses Mike Tyson's in my opinion.

Wins over Wlad and Deontay Wilder are superior to any single win on Mike Tyson's record.

Usyk is one of them cats that was an amateur for a long, long time. He fights rarely yes, but when he fights it tends to be big fights. Out of his 20 fights. At least half of them have been significant title fights or title eliminator type fights.

And for the record I can't say Tyson Fury "struggled" with Wlad. He stank the joint out against him in one of the Worst Heavyweight Title fights there ever was, but he won it quite clearly and never seemed to have any real trouble in doing so.

Wladimir Klitschko is better and more accomplished than Mike Tyson too in my opinion, and I have plenty of ammunition for why I think so.

[Ambling Alp II]

Could not possibly disagree with you more. Usyk has been a pro for 9 years. Been a heavyweight for four years. Only four fights at heavyweight so far. That has to count against him. That was an embarrassing performance by Fury against Klitschko. And that was against an old Klitschko. Wilder has a big punch, and that's all. Never beat anyone worth mentioning.

I hated Tyson as much as anyone. He was much, much better than these guys.
Watch the fights.

[HomicideHenry]

Miscellaneous Tyson Fury

According to Mike Tyson and Tyson Fury himself the two men were in talks to have an exhibition bout with each other at one point but Mike Tyson wanted half a billion dollars to engage in the matchup with the current heavyweight champion of the world.



This was apparently in the works not long after Mike Tyson had an exhibition bout with Roy Jones Jr. The half a billion dollars demand is ironic because Tyson Fury jokingly said he wanted half a billion dollars to fight Oleksandr Usyk.

[gilgamesh]

Could not possibly disagree with you more. Usyk has been a pro for 9 years. Been a heavyweight for four years. Only four fights at heavyweight so far. That has to count against him. That was an embarrassing performance by Fury against Klitschko. And that was against an old Klitschko. Wilder has a big punch, and that's all. Never beat anyone worth mentioning.

I hated Tyson as much as anyone. He was much, much better than these guys.
Watch the fights.

I've seen almost all of Mike Tyson's fights numerous times. He was more exciting than Wlad or Fury combined. He was not better than either of them.

Excitement and Popularity doesn't make you better than a guy who achieved more than you by every possible way you measure achievement in Boxing.

[Ambling Alp II]

Klitschko and Fury did beat some guys that Tyson would have also beat. Great argument.

Klitschko got stopped by Ross Purrity.
Klitschko got stopped by Corrie Sanders.
Klitschko got stopped by Lamon Brewster.

Truly legends in the sport.

Fury should have been able to destroy an ancient Klitschko. Couldn't do it.

[gilgamesh]

Klitschko and Fury did beat some guys that Tyson would have also beat. Great argument.

Klitschko got stopped by Ross Purrity.
Klitschko got stopped by Corrie Sanders.
Klitschko got stopped by Lamon Brewster.

Truly legends in the sport.

Fury should have been able to destroy an ancient Klitschko. Couldn't do it.

That was a Non Fight. Fury and Klitschko was essentially 2 guys standing in a Boxing ring for 36 minutes. There was no fight to speak of.